Vow of a Nazarite

Hoshiyya said:

I mean the Lord's supper. The eating of bread and wine in memorial of the Lord.

He said do this in remembrance of me, and took bread and wine.

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I know what you meant, however I take a more Jewish view that when he said do this in remembrance he was speaking of the Seder. However wine was not a commanded part of the keeping of Passover, the wine was added thus tradition.

The Lone Ranger said:

It says no razor shall touch your head. Was it normal to shave your head every month or so in the Land during Moses' time? Doesn't it get hot there? I wouldn't know because I have never been to the Middle East whatsoever. Did they have hair dressers then? I do know Orthodox Jews grow locks on their sideburns, but apparently not all Jews do. Furthermore, I heard that the electric shaver was invented by a Jew in order to keep Torah, so an actual razor would not touch the body in any way during a Shabbat. Then we know Jesus made exceptions to the rules upon HIS 1st coming, by picking and eating grains on Shabbat (like David did), and healing on Shabbat, and etc... Growing one's hair long, being a man, would definitely be a difficult thing in holding a job.

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According to gentile depictions of Hebrews they did not shave, neither head nor beard. On the other hand the Egyptians did a full body shave and then wore wigs and the Pharaoh wore a false beard made of braided goat hair.

As far as 'Jesus making exceptions' that was not the case. He did not invalidate any of the commandments, to have done so he would have been sinning and teaching others to sin.

He taught that it wasn't 'work' to heal someone on the Sabbath, nor was it sinning to eat what you could to stay alive.

If you are worried about holding a job over dedicating yourself to the L-RD then you really don't sound ready to do so. Many men do have long hair, just combed back neatly and tied with a band of some sort. This should not prevent most occupations from one being a part of.

The Lone Ranger said:

OK. It says grow long. It doesn't specify how long.

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I think that by saying 'long' it is showing that this vow is not something to be taken on a whim. Hair grows at approximately 1/2 inch per month (depending on all factors). So that said if you only took the vow for say 3 months your hair would only be 1 1/2" long, not very much and really can't be categorized as 'long'. So what is long?

If

3 mths = 1 1/2'
6 mths = 3"
9 mths = 4 1/2"
1 year = 6 inches

Now 6" is a good length to say long, but I would think it would be on the minimum end. So a year would be the least you could do this for.

2 years would yield a foot of hair.
3 years would yield 18" 18 being the number for life, chai, would be a good mark to shoot for.

Lulav said:

I understand your focus on the heart of the matter Vis, but I wouldn't call the commandments of the L-Rd 'outward trappings'. They have meaning and purpose.

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Those things that are involving the temple services which are now embodied in Yeshua can not go back to the brick and morter symbolism. Things that embody Yeshua have been eclipsed from symbolism to reality.

Just like we would not consider praying for forgiveness of sins over the head of a sacrificed lamb. We know the "Lamb of God" and our prayers to the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, knowing He is our High Priest in the real Temple of God in heaven. So also are we to see the meaning behind the vow of the Nazarite and live according, and all services with the Temple must now be with our High Priest, our Lamb of God and in the Temple in Heaven where it counts.

visionary said:

Those things that are involving the temple services which are now embodied in Yeshua can not go back to the brick and morter symbolism. Things that embody Yeshua have been eclipsed from symbolism to reality.

Just like we would not consider praying for forgiveness of sins over the head of a sacrificed lamb. We know the "Lamb of God" and our prayers to the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, knowing He is our High Priest in the real Temple of God in heaven. So also are we to see the meaning behind the vow of the Nazarite and live according, and all services with the Temple must now be with our High Priest, our Lamb of God and in the Temple in Heaven where it counts.

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So then you don't believe in any of the physical things involved with the vow? The growing of the hair, the shaving of the hair, not partaking of anything of the grape vine, no strong drink, etc.?

Do you believe that all the services Israel followed through the Priests as ordained and commanded by G-d did not count?

Can you explain how you see that Yeshua fulfilled the Nazir vow?

Thanks my friend and Shabbat Shalom!

Lulav said:

I know what you meant, however I take a more Jewish view that when he said do this in remembrance he was speaking of the Seder. However wine was not a commanded part of the keeping of Passover, the wine was added thus tradition.

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Following my teacher, I take the view that the last supper was not a passover, as it doesn't make sense chronologically, and as there was no lamb meat being eaten. Don't see how my view is any more or less Jewish than yours.

Like you however I'm concerned about the "spiritualization" of the temple service, as I see a third temple described in scripture, and it specifically says that sons of Zadok will be resurrected and made to act as priests in the millennial age, as reward for being faithful priests in their first life (Ezekiel 44:15, 48:11). There will be physical altars, and so on.

Lulav said:

So then you don't believe in any of the physical things involved with the vow? The growing of the hair, the shaving of the hair, not partaking of anything of the grape vine, no strong drink, etc.?

Do you believe that all the services Israel followed through the Priests as ordained and commanded by G-d did not count?

Can you explain how you see that Yeshua fulfilled the Nazir vow?

Thanks my friend and Shabbat Shalom!

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Num 6:8... "the symbol of his separation to God " I see this as a dedication not only to follow the instructions but go one step further and be like John the Baptist, separating yourself from the things of earth for the things of God. The physical things regarding the vow, like growing your hair and not letting any of it get cut, the not drinking of the strong drink, or wine as all part of the dedication.

Hugh Shonfield,in his book The Passover Plot:

"The name he bears, Jesus the Nazorean, has northern sectarian implications.... The name borne by the earliest followers of Jesus was not Christians: they were called Nazoreans (Nazarenes).... They were vegetarians and rejected animal sacrifices."

I do believe that all the services Israel followed through the Priests counted. They were fulfilled by Yeshua as both the Lamb of God and now with Him as the High Priest in the heavenly Temple of God as the services emulated here on earth what was really going on in the Heavenly Temple before God.

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

visionary said:

Num 6:8... "the symbol of his separation to God " I see this as a dedication not only to follow the instructions but go one step further and be like John the Baptist, separating yourself from the things of earth for the things of God. The physical things regarding the vow, like growing your hair and not letting any of it get cut, the not drinking of the strong drink, or wine as all part of the dedication.

Hugh Shonfield,in his book The Passover Plot:

"The name he bears, Jesus the Nazorean, has northern sectarian implications.... The name borne by the earliest followers of Jesus was not Christians: they were called Nazoreans (Nazarenes).... They were vegetarians and rejected animal sacrifices."

I do believe that all the services Israel followed through the Priests counted. They were fulfilled by Yeshua as both the Lamb of God and now with Him as the High Priest in the heavenly Temple of God as the services emulated here on earth what was really going on in the Heavenly Temple before God.

Hebrews 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

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I wonder where Hugh Shonfield gets his data from. Paul specifically condemns vegetarianism.

Hoshiyya said:

Following my teacher, I take the view that the last supper was not a passover, as it doesn't make sense chronologically, and as there was no lamb meat being eaten. Don't see how my view is any more or less Jewish than yours.

Like you however I'm concerned about the "spiritualization" of the temple service, as I see a third temple described in scripture, and it specifically says that sons of Zadok will be resurrected and made to act as priests in the millennial age, as reward for being faithful priests in their first life (Ezekiel 44:15, 48:11). There will be physical altars, and so on.

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Right now we have Yeshua in the Heavenly Temple as our High Priest and I do not think this is spiritualistic in any sense of the word. This is real physical work He is performing on our behalf. This is a real physical place in Heaven where He is performing in God's house before God.

We do know that before the millennium does start there will be a temple in which the son of perdition will stand before declaring himself god. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that priests of all varieties including Jewish rabbis and levites will be there performing the sacrifices as outlines in scripture. Wouldn't surprise me in the least that a stop to sacrificing will be declared. But then it is all about getting the Jewish temple up and running and then taking over. All prophecies concerning the Temple before the Millennium are not directives from God to build or participate in.

Hoshiyya said:

I wonder where Hugh Shonfield gets his data from. Paul specifically condemns vegetarianism.

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Yes, I found that interesting too. But then John the Baptist was vegetarian and so was Daniel and his friends for spiritual reasons.

visionary said:

Right now we have Yeshua in the Heavenly Temple as our High Priest and I do not think this is spiritualistic in any sense of the word. This is real physical work He is performing on our behalf. This is a real physical place in Heaven where He is performing in God's house before God.

We do know that before the millennium does start there will be a temple in which the son of perdition will stand before declaring himself god. It wouldn't surprise me in the least that priests of all varieties including Jewish rabbis and levites will be there performing the sacrifices as outlines in scripture. Wouldn't surprise me in the least that a stop to sacrificing will be declared. But then it is all about getting the Jewish temple up and running and then taking over. All prophecies concerning the Temple before the Millennium are not directives from God to build or participate in.

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The belief that the antichrist will build the third temple is completely novel.

There are two interpretations of 2 Thessalonians 2:4, both of which make more sense than that Protestant misteaching.

1.
Paul could be using temple as defined in his other letters. This very verse could be a veiled reference to the antichrist:
"If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person; for God's temple is sacred, and you together are that temple." 1 Corinthians 3:17

2.
Paul is referring to the temple in heaven.

Scripture says what has been is what shall be. That should probably be an important principle in interpreting the revelation.

Hoshiyya said:

Following my teacher, I take the view that the last supper was not a passover, as it doesn't make sense chronologically, and as there was no lamb meat being eaten. Don't see how my view is any more or less Jewish than yours.

Like you however I'm concerned about the "spiritualization" of the temple service, as I see a third temple described in scripture, and it specifically says that sons of Zadok will be resurrected and made to act as priests in the millennial age, as reward for being faithful priests in their first life (Ezekiel 44:15, 48:11). There will be physical altars, and so on.

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Hoshiyya, I wasn't indicating a difference between Jew and Gentile here, just saying what I've found many Messianic Jews believe.

It is a controversy for sure, but we have to deal with this passage which is shared


17 On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Where do you want us to make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” Matthew 26

On the first day of the Festival of Unleavened Bread, when it was customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb, Jesus’ disciples asked him, “Where do you want us to go and make preparations for you to eat the Passover?” Say to the owner of the house he enters, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is my guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’ Mark 14

7 Then came the day of Unleavened Bread on which the Passover lamb had to be sacrificed.
8 Jesus sent Peter and John, saying, “Go and make preparations for us to eat the Passover.”
9 “Where do you want us to prepare for it?” they asked.
10 He replied, “As you enter the city, a man carrying a jar of water will meet you. Follow him to the house that he enters,
11 and say to the owner of the house, ‘The Teacher asks: Where is the guest room, where I may eat the Passover with my disciples?’
12 He will show you a large room upstairs, all furnished. Make preparations there.”
13 They left and found things just as Jesus had told them. So they prepared the Passover.
14 When the hour came, Jesus and his apostles reclined at the table.
15 And he said to them, “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer.
16 For I tell you, I will not eat it again until it finds fulfillment in the kingdom of God.”
Luke 22

'They prepared the Passover' means that they went and prepared the sacrifice.

'the passover' means 'the lamb'

It is an abbreviated version of the Seder we see here

14 And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him.
15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.

17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. ( This is cup one mentioned)


19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
The wine first and then the bread, just as it is today. First the bracha for the wine, then the bracha or Hamotzi for the bread.

20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Between verse 19 and 20 is the part where the supper is eaten. As 20 speaks of the cup after supper

They didn't just have wine and bread as some believe.

visionary said:

Yes, I found that interesting too. But then John the Baptist was vegetarian and so was Daniel and his friends for spiritual reasons.

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Hoshiyya said:

I wonder where Hugh Shonfield gets his data from. Paul specifically condemns vegetarianism.

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I haven't looked it up but many say all the Apostles were except for Paul. James was well known for it even though he was a bit obscure in the NT anyways.

I think they believed that the New Kingdom had come. In that New Kingdom things would be set to rights, back like in the garden of Eden where animals were not eaten nor sacrificed. From the way I've read it, it seems Paul was condemning them for the vegetarianism they lived by along with other things.

John was for a different reason than Daniel. It was because Daniel was in a foreign land where the meats and wines were dedicated to the false gods that he and the others refused them. For John I think it was because he was an Essene as it is believed by some that they were vegans also. Excavation of Qumran, thought thorough found no animal bones. Some also believe and I tend to lean that way, is that John was raised up by them, 'in the desert' which would well describe Qumran, and it seems to make much sense, being his parents were elderly and some records have Herod looking to kill him as well as Yeshua.

So, is it necessary today to take a Natzar vow? It means to consecrate oneself to G-d.
I did meet a few that had taken the vow at a community Seder, they wore special clothing as well. All foods that had been brought in (it was a community pot luck) were vetted for any ingredients that might have come from grapes in any form.

Lulav said:

.....

They didn't just have wine and bread as some believe.

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I can prove to you the Lord's Supper was not the Passover, if you really want it, but that's a topic for another thread.

Hoshiyya said:

I mean the Lord's supper. The eating of bread and wine in memorial of the Lord.

He said do this in remembrance of me, and took bread and wine.

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He was talking about PASSOVER. I don't get the whole thing about ripping out Passover and just focusing on part of the Seder as though through ignorance the body ignore what Yeshua was actually talking about. He WASN'T talking about the bread and the wine outside of what was occuring as a part of the entire Seder.

I have no issue with communion provided the believer understand its ENTIRE meaning. And yes, that includes knowing that it was a PART of the Passover Seder.

Hoshiyya said:

I can prove to you the Lord's Supper was not the Passover, if you really want it, but that's a topic for another thread.

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I am leaning in your direction and have started a thread called Last Supper that you might want to check out.

Hoshiyya said:

I can prove to you the Lord's Supper was not the Passover, if you really want it, but that's a topic for another thread.

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There is a lively debate among academia regarding that point. I doubt very you can "prove" something that is hotly debated among biblical scholars

visionary said:

I am leaning in your direction and have started a thread called Last Supper that you might want to check out.

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Thank you!~

We need to get this thread back on topic, I'll transfer some of the posts over there.

BukiRob said:

There is a lively debate among academia regarding that point. I doubt very you can "prove" something that is hotly debated among biblical scholars

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Well, I think I can show why I believe it, at least. In a subjective world, all proof (excepting perhaps personal experience) is really "evidence".