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vote yes on proposition 8

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OphidiaPhile

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On Friday Apple inc. pledged 100k to help defeat proposition 8.


CUPERTINO, Calif. (AP) ― Apple Inc. has joined the short list of publicly traded companies to oppose a ballot measure that would take away the right of same-sex couples to marry in California.

The Cupertino-based computer and iPod maker posted a notice on its Web site Friday pledging $100,000 to defeat Proposition 8.

The statement says Apple views Prop. 8 as a civil rights issue, rather than just a political issue.

Jeans maker Levi-Strauss last month gave $25,000 to fight the initiative.
An Apple spokesman declined to elaborate on the company's position.



http://kdka.com/national/Apple.Inc.comes.2.848474.html
 
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Sylvanspirits

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I need to pick up an Apple product.
 
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flicka

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What are your predictions on this?
Cali seems to be a relatively liberal state.

We are. But when it comes right down to it the citiziens are not immune to scare tactics ("they are gunna teach your kids about homosexuality in school!") so you never know. There are plenty of Yes on 8 signs up in my neighborhood and earlier today I asked a guy holding a sign up on the street what he was afraid of. He ignored me and kept walking towards the group he was with while yelling " Parental rights! Yes on 8!!!" to passing cars. They didn't mention homosexuality in their signs at all and that way they don't seem homophobic or bigoted, just concerned about their little ones. But he couldn't hold his own, one on one, with me.
 
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katautumn

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What are your predictions on this?
Cali seems to be a relatively liberal state.

You'd be surprised. The whole "California is so liberal it's like Sodom and Gomorrah!" mantra is a load of bunk. Ever since the hippie pilgrimage to Haight-Ashbury, San Francisco has been viewed as some sort of moral toilet by conservative society. Truth be told, California is liberal only in small, concentrated areas such as Los Angeles and the Bay Area. Northern California, however, has been branded as one of the most conservative regions of the United States.

The fact that same-sex marriage was voted against the first time around doesn't bode well for couples who have already legally married there or have planned to get married there. I hope that Prop 8 fails, in spite of my cynical, sinking prediction that it won't.
 
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flicka

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You are right. And even in the Bay Area, where I live, it's not all that liberal. My son goes to public high school where many kids in his class are pulling for McCain, and Christianity is epidemic (lol). On a day to day basis this place lives very liberal, nobody bothers anyone, the gay kids at school are accepted and such, but when it comes down to casting a vote for something people freak out.
 
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Beanieboy

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuLWFznJ_ro

Here's a commercial where a child was read a story in school called the King and the King, a story with gay characters, and that boys can marry boys. In other words, the truth. Boys can marry boys in Canada, and in the States, Cali and Mass. It shows the Vote Yes vote, but exposes it for the lie, that Prop 8 simply removes the right for gays to marry. That is what is at stake.

First of all, the Constitution protects minorities against Majority rule. Do you think that Civil Rights would have passed if everyone had the opportunity to vote on it? A great many were happy with the injustice that they benefitted from. I think that voting on whether gays can marry should not be put up to vote. It should be examined only by the Supreme Court. However, if it gets shot down, which it hopefully will, then there should be a prop to prevent it from being put on the ballot ever again.
 
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Beanieboy

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Why do they think that kids don't know what gay is? I mean, they would understand if they watched Will and Grace, The Real World, Roseanne, etc. They will probably know kids at school that have gay uncles. Even back in my day, almost 40 years ago, I remember the girls coming back from recess, and sitting on another's knee, and giggling, "We're lezzies." Boys use the new "f" word at very early ages when demeaning other boys. It's not like the child lives in a bubble, and has never heard of it.

In Minneapolis, I was babysitting with my boyfriend, and his sister ate with us before leaving. She said, "Emily has a crush on a boy. What's his name?" She said, "Ryan, but Ryan likes Billie. Sometimes boys like boys, huh?" We sat there stunned that these words were coming out of her mouth. She repeated the question, and we finally all answered, yes, that is true, sometimes. And then she went on about what she did at school.
 
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Beanieboy

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One of the things that is unfair with hetero vs homosexuality is that people usually concentrate on the hetero (one man and one woman), but with homosexuality, they focus on the sexuality.

I remember once discussing Titanic. My coworkers said how romantic it was. I said, "are you serious? The dialogue was really bad, and the "romantic" story is about a financee who cheats on him with Leo, and it took forever for them to drown. My boyfriend said in frustration, "Just die already."

The office worker said, "You know, I would prefer that you keep what you do in the bedroom private."
I said, "We weren't in the bedroom - we were in a movie theater, and as far as I remember, weren't having sex in it."

Had I said, "My girlfriend, she have followed the conversation, asking me instead why she said that, or examples of why I didn't like it. Instead, she hears "boyfriend" and immediately turns to sex.
 
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Staccato

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Which was what I was basing my assumption that the marriages would be voided upon. That and the earnest and somewhat forceful declarations of some of my housemates, a couple of whom are gay and very much outraged by this whole affair, even though they're not even from the US.

Now, I'm certain that ultimately the fate of those 11,000 couples will be decided in the courts. NPR asked this question to a University of California law professor, his answer is that it is not clear what the fate of those couples will be.

Hopefully it won't come to the point where it has to be decided. However I can't find any polling on the issue later than 10/07, so if anyone has any links I'd be most appreciative.
 
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Polycarp1

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Their marriages would be grandfathered in.

But if it passes it will go to the supreme court and most likely be tossed out as it is not constitutional.

We've agreed on so much that I hate to do this, but, my dear, you're out to lunch here. Proposition 8 amends the State Constitution to require that the state recognize only one man-one woman marriages. While previously legally married gay couples have the option of claiming to others "we're married" in the same way as gay couples in Arkansas do, the state will be precluded by its own constitution from granting any recognition to them. Ditto domestic partnerships, if I'm not mistaken. And the Supreme Court of California may not declare it unconstitutional, for the tautological reason that a part of the constitution cannot be unconstitutional (within a single jurisdiction, of course; former Confederate states' constitutions protecting slavery fell to the 13th Amendment ot the U.S. Constitution.)

Ex post facto doesn't apply, either. All that ex post facto prohibitions mean is that no law may make an act legal at the time it was committed retroactively illegal. If you shoot a duck on Monday, and the legislature makes duck hunting illegal on Tuesday, you can't be prosecuted for what you did Monday. This does not, however, mean that some civil privilege may not be removed -- e.g., if you used to be able to drive 70 on the freeway and they dropped the speed limit to 60, too bad. If you used to be able to swim on beach X and they made it no swimming, too bad. Ex post facto doesn't apply.

One quick thought for those who relish this sort of thing: Californians now have the right to enter into same-sex marriages, the State Supreme Court having found it a violation of the Equal Protection Clause of the State Constitution to permit opposite-sex and not same-sex marriages. It is the Yes-on-8 advocates who want to change the definition of marriage, in this case.
 
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Beanieboy

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Interesting point.
 
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Maren

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The WSJ reported that an Oct. 17 poll by SurveyUSA showed Prop. 8 leading 48 to 45. It has also been reported that an Oct. 22 poll by the Public Policy Institute of California shows Prop. 8 losing 52 to 44. It is also worth noting that pro-Prop. 8 has spent about 6 times as much as the anti people, and as has been shown here, much of that advertising by the pro forces is misleading if not outright lies.
 
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Maren

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If you listen to the segment of NPR I linked, apparently under California law it won't be quite this simple. I do know there will be legal challenges to the Constitutional amendment. There were some legal challenges made against the proposition which the California Supreme Court did not rule on, basically saying that to decide them was premature. So these legal challenges will be brought up should Prop. 8 passes.

It is also possible that the amendment could be found unconstitutional, though likely that would need to be done by the US Supreme Court. This may not be as unlikely as some might think, even with the current Supreme Court. One of the precedents cited in the case would be Romer v. Evans, a Colorado constitutional amendment that excluded gays from civil rights laws. Since there is precedent by the US Supreme Court that you cannot single out a single class of people to deny them rights, combined with the fact that gays have been viewed by the courts as a class (minority), then logically this type of constitutional amendment should be overturned. Of course the court may chose not to overturn the amendment based on politics, since such a ruling would overturn amendments in many states.
 
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Staccato

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Thanks for the links!
 
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OphidiaPhile

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I highly doubt that the state Supreme Court will pass it, there was an article I am trying to find that said they were likely to throw it out and the reasons why but I need to find it.
 
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