Violence

The motivation behind the violence determines whether it is a sin or not. Using violence is an unfortunate occurrence in any situation but at times it is justified and acceptable. Violence due to an individuals anger is a sin but if you are protecting yourself or somebody else then it would be justified. You are not using violence because you can't control your emotions, you are standing up for what is right.

Dear pfcreed. The two Commandments which Jesus gives us
in Matthew 22: 35-40: are straightforward and easy to remember.
1) Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds.
2) Love our neighbour as we love ourselves. Then Jesus points out:
" on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God wants our love, freely given and NO conditions tagged on.
In Matthew 7: 7-10: we can " ask and we shall receive," ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God, and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour: all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends. It is not hard to understand,
we keep asking God for Love and Joy, then we thank God, and share all Love and Joy with all around us: our neighbour. God will see our loving kindness,
and God will Bless us. In fact: we will be treated as we treat others. It is God`s Eternal Law which gives us, as we give others: kindness and always friendly words, OR what we say or do. People will treat us as we treat people.
God made Man in God`s image, and we are all capable of Loving God as God wants to be Loved, and loving our neighbour as we love ourselves.
It might not come easily to us, BUT GOD WANTS IT FROM US. A Christian`s
great weapon is our love, with love we can overcome all obstacles and wrong behaviour. Remember, pfcreed. God`s Eternal Law will give us what we ask for: kindness, Consideration, and Love, OR fitting rewards, sooner or later.
God Loves us, and God`s Eternal Law of Justice gives us the consequences.
We might stumble or forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on Loving and Caring. We get all back at proper or fitting occasions.
I say this with love. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

pfcreed-

One of the Beatitudes is this:

Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. (Matthew 5:9,NIV)

Note that the word is 'peacemakers', not 'peacekeepers'. A person can hide under his bed and still be called a peacekeeper, but in order to be called a peacemaker he has to earn the title.

Those who earn the title of peacemaker include law enforcement, military, and active negotiators of valid peace terms between nations. As long as the people involved in these areas are using their authority in order to provide an environment where people can have confidence in their own safety, as well as that of their loved ones, they are earning the right to be called a peacemaker, even if the actions which they need to employ in order to accomplish this might appear to be violent.

Pacifism, often mistaken for being a peacemaker, paradoxically has often led to the most horrendous wars. The worst case of this in modern times was when the rest of the world attempted to cooperate with Adolph Hitler in the 1930's. When he ordered his military to enter the demilitarized zone between Germany and France in direct violation of the terms of the armistice, those who could have forced him to retreat did nothing (it later was revealed by German generals that they were prepared to pull their troops out of that zone, had anyone objected to their being there). When he demanded that part of Czechoslovakia be given to him, rather than insisting that he leave that nation alone the other leaders bowed to his demands, and then claimed that they had negotiated 'peace in our time'.

Because of their eagerness to please him the world suffered the loss of well over 40 million lives. And this is inevitably what takes place when the demands of despots are bowed to rather than their being firmly refused at their beginning. Whether it's the bully in the schoolyard or the dictator who wants to conquer the world, it is firmness, including the active threat of violent opposition, which all too often is the sole deterrent to his agenda.

I have wondered this myself. As I am enlisting in the Marine Corps (I ship to boot camp September 8th, 2014) and have wondered if the military puts this "turn the other cheek" philosophy at risk.

As a *future* member of the military, it will be expected of me to kill someone should the order be given. It is a scary thought, but I have a burning desire to serve my country and protect those who I can.

"Pacifism, often mistaken for being a peacemaker, paradoxically has often led to the most horrendous wars. The worst case of this in modern times was when the rest of the world attempted to cooperate with Adolph Hitler in the 1930's. When he ordered his military to enter the demilitarized zone between Germany and France in direct violation of the terms of the armistice, those who could have forced him to retreat did nothing (it later was revealed by German generals that they were prepared to pull their troops out of that zone, had anyone objected to their being there). When he demanded that part of Czechoslovakia be given to him, rather than insisting that he leave that nation alone the other leaders bowed to his demands, and then claimed that they had negotiated 'peace in our time'. " (harry3142)

This definitely helps me see how pacifism can be much worse than violence.

All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing

Harry3142 said in post 4:

Because of their eagerness to please him the world suffered the loss of well over 40 million lives.

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Actually, pacifists have never killed anyone. It was only war-makers who killed the 40 million people who died in World War II.

Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his 1st coming set the example for believers of what to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They're to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15) and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world so that they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23).

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

Harry3142 said in post 4:

And this is inevitably what takes place when the demands of despots are bowed to rather than their being firmly refused at their beginning.

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The war-makers bowed to Stalin.

pfcreed said:

Violence

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...isn't of God.

Bible2 said:

Actually, pacifists have never killed anyone. It was only war-makers who killed the 40 million people who died in World War II.

Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his 1st coming set the example for believers of what to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They're to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient believers don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15) and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world so that they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient believers know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23).

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, believers (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as believers have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

The war-makers bowed to Stalin.

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You condemn those who want to protect you and your loved ones. But if any of you were in peril from those who would harm you, would you call these same people whom you now condemn, or would you merely stand by and permit your loved ones to be harmed? You need to remember that those whom God has given you are not your property, but rather your responsibility.

While I do agree that we should meekly go to the slaughter, and all that other stuff as described above, you must remember also that while you yourself may not be willing to kill to save your own life, would you be willing to kill to save the lives of others, even those who you do not know?

That is the peril many marines, Soldiers, Airmen, law Enforcement face who are Christians. Why they may not want or even desire to use violence, they knowingly understand that using violence to prevent violence on the innocent may be the only way.

In a way, they make the ultimate sacrifice. They sacrifice themselves, and in many cases, their very livelihoods to protect and serve others whom they may not know, so that they are never confronted with the decision to "meekly go to the slaughter" or fight back.

While I absolutely 100% agree that violence is not of God, nor that we should use it, this world is very dark, and the use of violence against violence may be the only solution sometimes.

I will not sit here and tell you that I want to perfect my violence, use violence, or inflict harm on anyone. Because I personally would never wish, or desire violence and hate on anyone, even my enemies. However, I do desire that the innocent be safe.

This is one of the largest internal battles I think many Christians serving have. None of us wish to use violence, and we would all much rather have a safer world with no violence.

Harry3142 said in post 8:

You condemn those who want to protect you and your loved ones.

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It's curious that the war-makers would condemn Chamberlain for handing an ethnically-German part of Czechoslovakia over to Hitler, when the war-makers themselves would later turn around and hand over not only all of Czechoslovakia, but all the rest of eastern Europe, to Stalin. So who bowed to a despot more than the war-makers themselves, and even after they'd caused the completely unnecessary deaths of over 40 million people in a war?

Bjornke said in post 9:

Why they may not want or even desire to use violence, they knowingly understand that using violence to prevent violence on the innocent may be the only way.

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With regard to World War II, for example, someone might ask a pacifist: So we should have just let Hitler continue the slaughter of innocents in the Holocaust? The answer would be no. And the war wasn't fought over the Holocaust, but over the political control of countries. Also, even if it had been fought over the Holocaust, should 40 million people be killed in a war to save 6 million alive? Instead, what could have saved them alive would have been an American offer to receive as immigrants all the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, and disabled people whom Hitler thought were weakening Germany. Hitler could have agreed to let them all go, for he would have seen it as a way for them to (in his mind) weaken his ultimate rival America instead.

Also, who supports the idea of a shooting war to stop the current Holocaust of millions of aborted babies who are being brutally murdered around the world each year? Who are more innocent than these little ones? And yet where are the war-makers put who try to defend these innocents by killing anyone who would harm them? They're put in prison, as murderers.

Bible2 said:

It's curious that the war-makers would condemn Chamberlain for handing an ethnically-German part of Czechoslovakia over to Hitler, when the war-makers themselves would later turn around and hand over not only all of Czechoslovakia, but all the rest of eastern Europe, to Stalin. So who bowed to a despot more than the war-makers themselves, and even after they'd caused the completely unnecessary deaths of over 40 million people in a war?

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You need to study history more, rather than condemning what you don't know. Hitler's plans for conquest included the USA itself, which in the 1930's he had already 'carved up' into regions, and then assigned men to govern. One of those overseers was captured by a GI, who thought at first that he had captured an American who had repatriated to Germany due to his excellent knowledge of the English language. However, the facts were that the man was a native of Germany who had been educated in the governing of Connecticut after Hitler conquered the USA. This just happened to be where the GI's hometown was located. In fact, the German's education was so extensive that he knew as much about the GI's hometown as the GI himself knew.

Scripture is quite clear that we are not to be vigilantes. However, Scripture is also clear that those who deliberately choose to follow a path which causes the legitimate governing authorities to see them as a threat, whether those people are individuals, a special-interest organization, or even another nation bent on aggression, have 'crossed the line' and so are to be dealt with firmly:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgement on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment to the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. (Romans 13:1-5,NIV)

All too often we Christians want to believe that the God of the Old Testament retired, and we now have a God who is little more than a Casper Milquetoast. But the facts are that the God who sent Jesus among us also sent the Assyrians to Israel to destroy it; the God who had his own Son crucified as an atonement for our sins also sent the Babylonians to take the people of Judah into slavery; and the God who raised Jesus from the dead also ordered the annihilation of entire societies in Canaan. We can say that God is love, but we cannot say that love is God, because the God who loves is also the God who hates, the God who creates is also the God who destroys, and the God who gives us eternal life is also the God who is willing to condemn those to hell who are arrogant enough to oppose him.

So rather than condemning those who work in occupations which appear to be violent, we need to accept that the same God who offers us salvation freely is also the God who has placed authorities in positions of power. So it is our responsibility to live our own lives in a manner that causes those authorities to see us as a benefit to whatever civilized society we are part of, rather than their seeing us as evildoers, and then carrying out the actions toward evildoers which God has assigned to them.

pfcreed, what do you do for a living?

When the soldiers were baptized by John the baptist, they knew they had to turn their lives over to the Lord Jesus in sincere repentance. They weren't sure what this would look like, though, and perhaps some thought it meant a life of pure pacifism. John did not tell them to quit the army, though, he merely told them to do their job righteously and not to use it as a means to swindle:

Luke 3
14 Soldiers also asked him, “And we, what shall we do?” And he said to them, “Do not extort money from anyone by threats or by false accusation, and be content with your wages.”

When Peter cut off the ear of the slave at Gethsemene, Jesus did not tell him to get rid of his sword. He said, "Put your sword away."

John 18
10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant3 and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) 11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given me?”

If you work for the civil authority, as in the role of a prison guard, you should not feel bad about helping keep order. Paul teaches clearly that the civil authorities are put in place by God (even ones that are not necessarily following God, as God will allow the people to have oppressive leaders if they are turning away from Him).

Ultimately, God wants the greatest good for the greatest number of people, despite our rebellious freewill. So... Don't let your heart condemn you or the devil accuse you if you are working in a role that must maintain peace and order for the greater good of society. As long as you do righteously, and don't use your position for wickedness, you are in God's will.

I would also learn about spiritual warfare so you can keep yourself in the joy of the Lord and in the strength of His might. It sounds like you're working a tough position and it would benefit you to spend much time in Jesus' presence in prayer each day. This will also strengthen you to intercede for the people who you work with and may have to tangle with. Let the love of Christ shine through you, even when you've got someone in a chokehold. Do it all in love, and God will reward your effort by turning their hearts towards you.

Proverbs 16:7
When a man's ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.


Additionally, there is no prohibition to self-defense from random violence, either. It's not God's will that wicked men run freely to do harm to the innocent.

That being said, if the civil authorities come to my door and say they are rounding up the Christians for persecution/martyrdom, I will not resist. I will go willingly singing His praises so that He may be glorified in whatever comes our way. This is the only real Biblical time when a Christian should not fight for what's right.

Dear pfcreed. When Jesus tells us to give the other cheek, I am sure our Lord wants us to go the way of peace, Happy are the peacemakers. God will always have the last Word. The last Word is always to be found in:
" Galatians 6: 7-10:" Whatever man sows he will always reap. That is God`s eternal Law of Justice. All good deeds will earn good rewards, and bad, or evil deeds will have fitting Consequences. That is God`s answer to all our different opinions, and sooner or later they will catch up with us. God is Love, and God wants Loving sons and daughters. Love is a Christian`s strong weapon, and Love will always be on our side, if we choose God`s Way and Will. For those who think they know better, there always will be fitting consequences, sooner or later, but never forgotten.
I say this with love, pfcreed. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Emmy said:

Dear pfcreed. When Jesus tells us to give the other cheek, I am sure our Lord wants us to go the way of peace, Happy are the peacemakers. God will always have the last Word. The last Word is always to be found in:
" Galatians 6: 7-10:" Whatever man sows he will always reap. That is God`s eternal Law of Justice. All good deeds will earn good rewards, and bad, or evil deeds will have fitting Consequences. That is God`s answer to all our different opinions, and sooner or later they will catch up with us. God is Love, and God wants Loving sons and daughters. Love is a Christian`s strong weapon, and Love will always be on our side, if we choose God`s Way and Will. For those who think they know better, there always will be fitting consequences, sooner or later, but never forgotten.
I say this with love, pfcreed. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

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Tell me, what is a corrections officer who is a Christian to do? At times, they are called upon to restrain the violent. At times, they are called to subdue the dangerous. Should that person quit their job and let violence reign among inmates?

You are a keeper of the peace and do your job to protect the lives of others. If that involves getting physical with inmates intent on killing someone then you are required by God to act to save that persons life. Do only what you must and don't let hatred of this person or that build up in your heart.

There are many examples of when the Lord choose people who he required to have "the sword" to use it.

Just be careful and seek quiet time in pray after disturbing incidents. If it's too much for you quit. No job is worth your peace.

Hi Newbies,
You are acting very religious. Read Romans 13; parts about ministers of God don't bear the sword in vain. It also speaks on conscience, ask the Spirit for help personally on these issues. Discussing this amongst yourselves could become fruitless, and confusing.

Grace to you.

There are times when there is no other way but violence. Jesus Christ had righteous ingination when He overturned the money changers tables and drove them out--He definately did not turn the other cheek then. But it was for the purpose of bringing the temple of God back to a spiritual haven instead of a bank. He raised no army against the Romans. He did not defend Himself, but He came to this earth to die for us, not fight for His life. Jesus was still the same God that approved of David's having to slay Goliath, yet was angry at David for having Bathsheeba's husband slain so he could conceal his sin and marry her when he already had several wives.
And it's very true that what one may be willing to suffer, to have a loved one suffer the same thing brings out our protective anger. I was not able to defend myself from my dad, but when faced with the possibility of my 2 little nieces being put in harms way--I spoke up--and trust me, had he ever tried to hurt them, I would have pounced on him like a grizzley bear, and he kept a gun and I knew where and would not have hesitated to use it. But I could not harm him to protect myself. I tried to kill him with a knife at one point, he saw me holding it and thought I was trying to kill myself and he struggled with me and I accidently knicked him and when I saw that I had drawn blood, I was horrified and dropped the knife. I realized I could not kill for myself---but it was different for my beautiful little nieces.
There is no discrepency between the God of the old testament and the God of the new testament. Jesus created this earth, the bible says he created everything and without Him nothing was created. He created man and the world, and it is the same God that wiped out the army of Pharoah, Sodom and Gomorrah, and commanded the Israelites to wipe out certain tribes, including men, women and children, including their animals. Jesus Christ and the Father are one, "if you have seen Me you have seen the Father."
Police, soldiers, have a solemn duty to perform and that demands respect--I realize they don't always deserve it and their evil nature can come out as much as anyone elses, but they are needed. It's a really personal decision about bearing arms--you can go in as a non-combatant and work as a medic. The commandment really reads as "thou shalt not murder"--not "thou shalt not kill." In defense of another, or defence of our country against those who would kill us all if given the chance--you may love the enemy, but you may have to love them to death!

turned around said:

Hi Newbies,
You are acting very religious. Read Romans 13; parts about ministers of God don't bear the sword in vain. It also speaks on conscience, ask the Spirit for help personally on these issues. Discussing this amongst yourselves could become fruitless, and confusing.

Grace to you.

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Romans 13 is an excellent example, though I believe you could have presented it with a bit more love and kindness.