Verses sent to me from a friend

tobethebest said:

Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This verse clearly states that the Lord creats darkness and evil.

NAS says, "creating darkness and creating calamity."
The Wycliffe Bible says, "making darknesses and forming evil."

Isaiah 54:7 says,"For a small moment have I forsaken thee, but with great mercies will I gather thee.

NAS says, "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great compassion I wll gather you."

My friend wants me to shed some light on these verses where God isn't the actual creator of anything dark or evil or that He has ever forsaken us. Maybe someone out there can shed some light on these verses. Thanks

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Hi tobethebest,

Well, you'll probably have a difficult time in that effort. The word of God is clear. He does create evil! If it is His sovereign purpose to create evil He has claimed that He will and, I believe, shown that He has on several occassions.

Now, do not mistake this to mean that He created the original concept or idea of evil or sin. No! God has merely told us that He can bring evil into play in His creation if it is to serve His purpose. I don't think that anyone can consider the terror and fear that mankind all over the earth felt as the waters began to rise upon the earth and they began to understand that they were doomed. They were going to die. In the minds of those who were striving to save their families and loved ones in that day, I have no doubt that they were filled with terror and fear. And I have no doubt that had they known that this terror and fear was coming upon them by the very hand of the Creator of all things that they would have had even the slightest hesitation in calling it 'evil'.

I don't think anyone reading the account of the exodus of Israel from Egypt would hesitate to consider, again from man's point of view, that when God struck down the sons of Aaron for simply making an unauthorized offering, that some standing there would not have considered that evil.

I can't hardly imagine that all the families of the Egyptian soldiers who died as the waters of the sea came back to their place, wouldn't have held the one responsible for their loved one's deaths as evil.

As a matter of fact, if you will turn in your Scriptures and beginning in Deuteronomy 28 and continue through chapter 30, you will find that God tells His people that He will bring curse after curse upon them if they prove to be unfaithful. And He did. And you can wager all your resources that when He did, the people who suffered through those curses in real time knew and understood that they were suffering evil at the hands of their God.

Finally, no one can understand the whole of the Scriptures and not realize and know and understand that those who do not receive God's promise of eternal life, they will suffer through evil and torment forever. And while I don't believe that God will be the one causing the evil and torment, He will most certianly be the one, as His Son has told us, who will cast them into that place. Jesus was clear that we should not fear any man or demon whose greatest recourse against us is to kill us in this life. He told us to fear God who not only has the power to take this life away from us, but also has the power to cast us into that place of eternal torment in the next life.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I understand it as God allows evil. There is a passage in 1 Kings wherein God dealt with vile king Ahab.

1Kings 22:
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the Lord said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the Lord said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee.


So, the evil was a lying spirit in the mouths of Ahab's prophets who he believed instead of the true prophet. We all like good news,and nobody likes harsh criticism. This is the way I see God creating evil. He gives us a choice, but He knows the choice we will make.

tobethebest said:

Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This verse clearly states that the Lord creats darkness and evil.

NAS says, "creating darkness and creating calamity."
The Wycliffe Bible says, "making darknesses and forming evil."

Isaiah 54:7 says,"For a small moment have I forsaken thee, but with great mercies will I gather thee.

NAS says, "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great compassion I wll gather you."

My friend wants me to shed some light on these verses where God isn't the actual creator of anything dark or evil or that He has ever forsaken us. Maybe someone out there can shed some light on these verses. Thanks

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It is simple, the verses are not correctly translated. God is not evil, nor does he do evil. However, God did create the contrast of good and evil precieved by him.

We have a lifetime to accept God as He is. God is love.
The Word can help you if you seek.
We can only share what we are having revealed daily.
If you don't like the way you read it in the bible, just say that in your prayers.
A sincere seeker will never be turned away.

tobethebest said:

Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This verse clearly states that the Lord creats darkness and evil.

NAS says, "creating darkness and creating calamity."
The Wycliffe Bible says, "making darknesses and forming evil."

Isaiah 54:7 says,"For a small moment have I forsaken thee, but with great mercies will I gather thee.

NAS says, "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great compassion I wll gather you."

My friend wants me to shed some light on these verses where God isn't the actual creator of anything dark or evil or that He has ever forsaken us. Maybe someone out there can shed some light on these verses. Thanks

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Let's go back to the begin.

God said to Adam:

Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

As we know Adam disobeyed and as result began believing in good and evil, in addition Adam began to believe in an evil entity called the devil who he perceived to be his enemy and the cause of his problems.

God is setting the record straight here by saying:

I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

God through Isaiah is speaking to us who believe in evil and He's trying to communicate that He is all that exist and everything that was created was created by Him and none other.

That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Is. 45:6&7

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When Adam disobeyed, man fell from grace. And from that moment until the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ he was cut off from God. Through Isaiah God is saying:

For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer. Is. 54:7&8

Not knowing your friend, we can only offer our small part.
All, want to know God, because we have been given a measure of faith.
It came with the package. And one way we dodge the ball of decision is to
try and find a fault in God, so we don't have to adjust our own hearts.
Thinking of evil, as a way we can justify not coming to Jesus. The old, why do bad things happen to good people line.
Yet the heart can never rest with out that relationship we were created for.
If a person is educated or not, it makes little difference.
And the real question is not who made evil or how did it come about. It's who am I going to say Jesus is........... One lifetime, one choice.

I've come to believe that convincing someone of life after death can only come by way of praying for that person. Why God allows bad things to happen to good people is a perfect example of a God who (and this is hard to write) creates evil. It's just not understood by so many outsiders who prefer questioning whether there actually is a God, instead of atoning for their sins and accepting evidence of things not seen.

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I agree. Some people do not read the scripture to find salvation, but to find fault. The bible says that the preaching of the gospel is foolishness to the lost. Prayer for them seems to be the only thing that works. Have you thought about posing your question in the apologetics forum? I am sure the thinkers there may have a more convoluted answer that may satisfy your friends intelligence.

tobethebest said:

Isaiah 45:7 says, "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

This verse clearly states that the Lord creats darkness and evil.

NAS says, "creating darkness and creating calamity."
The Wycliffe Bible says, "making darknesses and forming evil."

Isaiah 54:7 says,"For a small moment have I forsaken thee, but with great mercies will I gather thee.

NAS says, "For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great compassion I wll gather you."

My friend wants me to shed some light on these verses where God isn't the actual creator of anything dark or evil or that He has ever forsaken us. Maybe someone out there can shed some light on these verses. Thanks

Click to expand...

Tobethebest, so are you trying to prove to your friend that god didn't create evil and doesn't do evil acts? Your friend seems to be right in his idea that god did Create evil along with everything else and he also acts in an evil way many times in scripture. If you are trying to prove the opposite, I think you will only contradict scripture with other scripture, trying to do that. The scriptures are very clear to me. God created Evil along with good and God does evil, many times and even repents of his evil acts sometimes. Here in Jonah is a good example of god repenting from the Evil he was going to bring on Nineveh

Jonah 4:2
2 And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness , and repentest thee of the evil.

So, I think the best way to approach your friend from an apologetic point of view is to agree with him that according to the scriptures, God is both good and evil. However, he is also a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness also.

Jesus told the religious leaders that all the blood of the prophets would fall on that generation and then came the Romans who totally wiped Jerusalem out. According to Jesus, that was Gods Judgment on Jerusalem for their sins and if you know anything about the 70ad destruction, it was so extremely violent and evil and it was God's will according to the scriptures...

I am also recalling how God demanded that Moses Kill thousands of the Israelites for practising their freedom of religion by making and worshiping a golden calf and that was straight after God gave the commandment "Do Not Kill".


I'm also recalling the two Christians who lied to the holy ghost about handing over their belongings to the Apostles and god struck both of them dead on the spot? which act is more evil? the lie because you didn't want to give everything or the slaughter of a Christians couple for lieing? Which is more evil?


The threat of eternal torture in hellfire just because you don't believe in Jesus or God is another Christian claim and it does not make God look good as far as a god who is only good. I can't get past the fact that torture in eternal hellfire is far more of an evil crime than anything I have ever done. So, to think God would torture me forever in hellfire if I don't believe in him is absolutely evil.

These are the things you are up against with your friend if you disagree that God does evil acts or that god created evil.

So, from my perspective, the bible is literally filled with god getting very angry at mankind for sometimes trivial things and as a result, we see evil acts that are from God toward mankind for sins and sometimes God's response is far more evil than the sin he is punishing, ie, those who worshiped the golden calf were slaughtered. which act is more evil? the slaughter of thousands of Brothers or worshiping an idol??? . Noah's story is another example of that...I think the Scriptures are clear about this, so if you are disagreeing with your friend who seems to be claiming this, I think you will find yourself in error trying to convince him that god is only good. All he will see is a contradiction of scripture if you do try and convince him that God is only good and does no evil.

I would approach him by agreeing that God created good and evil and also does evil acts but I would emphasis that god is a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness and these traits are what makes him attractive.

i have only seen that God uses what we consider evil acts for the good of his children. just like any loving father does when protecting his children from true evil. a time out to a small child for disobeying and playing in the street may seem an evil thing to that child. but it may save his life. as far as God ending someone's life here on earth, he has the power to restore life, nothing more than a nap with that kind of power.

tobethebest said:

I'm enjoying all responses. "Miamited" has grabbed my attention and I really like how he presented it with the parting of the Red Sea. However, it isn't easy to "justify" a God who is evil.

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Hi,

Let me just see if possibly I might shed some light on your understanding.

If someone came up to you and said, "I'm going to rape your wife and murder your children." Would you consider it evil to kill that person?

You see, God has, since the day He called Abram of Ur, a plan for the descendents of Abraham. His purpose and intention is that that plan be worked out no matter the consequential cost to others who may get in the way.

Have you ever stopped and asked yourself how it is going to be possible that in some future life there will not be any pain, suffering or tears? Consider that question and get back to me with a reply and we'll continue.

God bless you .
In Christ, Ted

I have an example. When my elder son was born, he was club footed. The doctors decided right away to put his foot and legs in plaster casts. I didn't want to, but I went ahead and gave permission. It was painful to a newborn baby. But, my baby, resilient as babies are, stopped crying after a few days. He wore those casts for months. Then he had to wear a brace between his orthopedic shoes for more months. He hated that brace. Today he has beautifully straight legs and feet. He does not remember those trials he went through but he is glad it happened. I guess you could call that brace a rod of correction. LOL.

tobethebest said:

I really like how you think Miamite. I know the old saying that if you can't feel pain your'e never going to feel anything else. It's the thing that Jud Hirsch said to Timothy Hutton on Ordinary People. "Sometimes you feel pain and if you can't feel that, you're never going to feel anything else either." That is my all time favorite movie. The great Robert Redford at his best and a list of terrific actors.

I'm not so sure I understand the pitfalls of a world of all good things, no suffering, no tears. Is that sort of thinking unbalanced in some way? Is it where Adam and Eve were on the day they were tempted? Will evil ever stop existing and will a new earth mean the complete removal of bad stuff? With Jud's thinking, I can't see how that's going to happen.

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Hi,

Well, that's not exactly where I was heading with my questions. It requires a lot of prayer and a lot of study and more prayer and more study and all of that is futile unless one is born again.

God created this realm of existence about 6,000 years ago. Now, you can agree or disagree, it really doesn't matter to me. However, when one agrees, then one begins to see and understand the 'plan'.

God created. Knowing full well from the day that He spoke the very first, "Let there be...", that He was making a home for a creature that He would create, called 'man'. Now, if we turn to the very last chapters of the very last written information that God has given us regarding His purpose and plan for this realm that He has created we read:

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth,http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1 for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2 and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City,http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-4 prepared as a bridehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-5 beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them.http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-6 They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes.http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-8 There will be no more deathhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-9 or mourning or crying or pain,http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-10 for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the thronehttp://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-12 said, "I am making everything new!"http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-13 Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done.http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-15 I am the Alpha and the Omega,http://www.biblestudytools.com/revelation/21.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-16 the Beginning and the End.

Friend, as I have read and studied the Scriptures I find that every word that is written between "In the beginninghttp://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-1 God createdhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-2 the heavenshttp://www.biblestudytools.com/genesis/1.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-3 and the earth", and "Now the dwelling of God is with men...", is all part of a wonderful and masterful 'plan' which all falls into perfect alignment with God's purpose and desire for creating this realm.

In God's working out from the "In the beginning..." to "Now the dwelling of God...", we find God doing things that move this plan along. Had the Egyptians overtaken Israel they would most surely have drug them back to Egypt and enslaved them, as that was their stated purpose for pursuing them, and probably killed many in the fight to take them. So, God fought for His people Israel. He made a way for their escape which also became the tomb for their pursuers. God has been working all along bringing this realm of creation of flesh from "In the beginning God...", to "Now the dwelling of God..."

So, you might ask, "Well, why would God fight for Israel?"

Fair question. I believe the answer is because God's raising up the nation of Israel was also part of the overall plan to get from, "In the beginning God...", to "Now the dwelling of God..." Paul tells us that the chief, the most important reason for there being a Jew, was that they were entrusted with the very words of God. God raised up and protected and provided for Israel, even though they are human just like you and I and they sin and they fall and they stumble, because it was part of His plan that after, "In the beginning God...", He would cause to be written the Scriptures. Because in order for God to get to, "Now the dwelling of God...", and there be any people who might enjoy God's promise of eternal life, which was always God's plan from the beginning, He had to see to it that the Scriptures were written and the redeemer paid the price to ransom those who would believe from their sin. He did all of that through His people Israel.

He raised them up and watched over them and protected them because they had a purpose in His plan! When wicked men with no understanding got in His way, then He set them out of His way. Which is exactly what He is going to do in the end with everyone. God is going to take those who have believed, trusted, loved, understood all that He is doing and set them in a place where, because they love Him and understand that we can't hate one another and live forever; we can't fight one another and live forever, they will be set apart from all those who don't believe, don't understand and don't love Him. Those who are filled with human pride and anger and jealousy and all the other kinds of wickedness that Paul writes about in the first chapter of his letter to the Romans - they're going to all be put together with all the angels that have succumbed to anger, jealousy, pride and all the other wickedness in the angelic realm. Jesus calls this place 'hell' and whether you agree with that name or not really doesn't matter. It is the condition that men in that place will suffer that matters. To be honest, you can call it going to the Dairy Queen if you want to, Jesus is clear that that place will be filled with pain and suffering and torment for eternity.

In the end, God is going to separate all those who desire to live wicked, unrighteous lives and refusing to give their Creator His just honor and glory for all that He has done from the one's who heard and understood the truth and set in their hearts to love their Creator and to honor and love one another because they know that that is the only way an eternal existence with no more pain or sorrow can be achieved.

So, that is what I have found is revealed in the Scriptures. This is all going to work out just the way God intended in the beginning that it would work out. The question for each one of us is: Do we want what God offers? If we do, then there is a way to get it. He has spelled it all out in the Scriptures and now sits upon His throne and waits for the complete working out of His 'plan'.

The day will come, when our Creator will stand and say, "Enough! The time has come! Son, go get your children for I am about to release my wrath upon all the ungodly and then make everything new and those who are yours will inherit a life of peace, security and joy and love forever and ever and ever and ever more.

God bless you. And I pray that you are one who wants what your God and Father offers you.
IN Christ, Ted

PS, just for the record, I don't generally put much stock in the cute little coloquilisms of men. I much rather know the truth from God. I happen to think that we can all live a fine life without having to 'know' the experience of pain to enjoy eternal life.

tobethebest said:

Handmaid - I really cherish the story of your son. It reminds me of Forrest Gump, when he said, "My legs are just fine and dandy." Your son is a one in a million, like taking a bite out of a candy apple and finding you still have more left. My wife would love to have his company around during the day while I'm at work.

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No, my son has since grown up and become a man. He is a computer tech, and a very busy one. No time to sit around the house. lol.