veiling and the book of enoch

merryheart · Mar 5, 2012

The veiling, seclusion, forgetting to mention the names of women may have different origins than you think Consider the books of Enoch to which the bible refers the books of Enoch were written well before new testament times and before that were passed down orally to the people in that part of the world. The Bible refers to them, and Jesus speaks in the same terms used in them when He calls Himself the "Son of Man"

Whether they are truth or not is irrelevant, middle easterners definitely did regard them as true at one time. In the book of 1 Corinthians 11, some want to cover the women to keep the angels from lusting after them, to which Paul replies that "we have no such custom in the church" yet this passage has itself been used to cover Christian women as well.

For the record, I think that covering or secluding women is a misguided approach to their protection, but even in the OT women are referred to as veiled and covered - even though it was never commanded.

balaclava · Mar 5, 2012

I would like to know (if anyone can tell me) the origins of and an explanation of why women cover their heads in church and men do not. Further, why it is that it would be a sign of disrespect for a woman not to cover her head and a sign of disrespect for a man to cover his head (in church).

Booko · Mar 5, 2012

I'm not following the "son of man" reference here. "Son of man" is a title used in the Tenakh for prophets, Ezekiel being the poster child for that sort of reference.

Booko · Mar 5, 2012

balaclava said:
I would like to know (if anyone can tell me) the origins of and an explanation of why women cover their heads in church and men do not. Further, why it is that it would be a sign of disrespect for a woman not to cover her head and a sign of disrespect for a man to cover his head (in church).

1 Corinthians, chapter 11

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

merryheart said:
The veiling, seclusion, forgetting to mention the names of women may have different origins than you think Consider the books of Enoch to which the bible refers the books of Enoch were written well before new testament times and before that were passed down orally to the people in that part of the world. The Bible refers to them, and Jesus speaks in the same terms used in them when He calls Himself the "Son of Man"

Whether they are truth or not is irrelevant, middle easterners definitely did regard them as true at one time. In the book of 1 Corinthians 11, some want to cover the women to keep the angels from lusting after them, to which Paul replies that "we have no such custom in the church" yet this passage has itself been used to cover Christian women as well.

For the record, I think that covering or secluding women is a misguided approach to their protection, but even in the OT women are referred to as veiled and covered - even though it was never commanded.

Interesting post, but the Bible does not refer to the "book of Enoch"

Booko · Mar 5, 2012

brinny said:
Interesting post, but the Bible does not refer to the "book of Enoch"

No, but a couple of Christian groups in Africa consider the Book of Enoch canonical. I think it's the old Ethiopian Church.

merryheart · Mar 5, 2012

brinny said:
Interesting post, but the Bible does not refer to the "book of Enoch"

A short section of 1 Enoch (1 En 1:9) is quoted in the New Testament (Letter of Jude 1:14-15), and is there attributed to "Enoch the Seventh from Adam" (1 En 60:8). It is argued that all the writers of the New Testament were familiar with it and were influenced by it in thought and diction

Jude 1:14-15 said:
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
Interesting post, but the Bible does not refer to the "book of Enoch"

Booko said:
No, but a couple of Christian groups in Africa consider the Book of Enoch canonical. I think it's the old Ethiopian Church.

ok.

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
Interesting post, but the Bible does not refer to the "book of Enoch"

merryheart said:
A short section of 1 Enoch (1 En 1:9) is quoted in the New Testament (Letter of Jude 1:14-15), and is there attributed to "Enoch the Seventh from Adam" (1 En 60:8). It is argued that all the writers of the New Testament were familiar with it and were influenced by it in thought and diction

This is referring to Enoch the prophet. Not the "book of Enoch".

merryheart · Mar 5, 2012

brinny said:
This is referring to Enoch the prophet. Not the "book of Enoch".

yes - but the well known (at that time) prophecies of Enoch are what is in the book.

it's a direct quote of 1 Enoch 1:9

In any case, irrelevant... The book of Enoch was widely known at the time of Christ, and during the times of the New Testament. The early church definitely included it in the canon, and the Copts have it in theirs to this day. -- this is also only relevant to show that this is certainly what was believed by the many people in the middle east...

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
This is referring to Enoch the prophet. Not the "book of Enoch".

merryheart said:
yes - but the well known (at that time) prophecies of Enoch are what is in the book.

it's a direct quote of 1 Enoch 1:9

the bible verse you posted is speaking of Enoch the prophet, not quoting from a "book of Enoch".

merryheart · Mar 5, 2012

brinny said:
the bible verse you posted is speaking of Enoch the prophet, not quoting from a "book of Enoch".

really?

[Chapter 1]

1 The words of the blessing of Enoch, wherewith he blessed the elect and righteous, who will be 2 living in the day of tribulation, when all the wicked and godless are to be removed. And he took up his parable and said -Enoch a righteous man, whose eyes were opened by God, saw the vision of the Holy One in the heavens, which the angels showed me, and from them I heard everything, and from them I understood as I saw, but not for this generation, but for a remote one which is 3 for to come. Concerning the elect I said, and took up my parable concerning them:

The Holy Great One will come forth from His dwelling,

4 And the eternal God will tread upon the earth, (even) on Mount Sinai,

[And appear from His camp]

And appear in the strength of His might from the heaven of heavens.

5 And all shall be smitten with fear

And the Watchers shall quake,

And great fear and trembling shall seize them unto the ends of the earth.

6 And the high mountains shall be shaken,

And the high hills shall be made low,

And shall melt like wax before the flame

7 And the earth shall be wholly rent in sunder,

And all that is upon the earth shall perish,

And there shall be a judgement upon all (men).

8 But with the righteous He will make peace.

And will protect the elect,

And mercy shall be upon them.

And they shall all belong to God,

And they shall be prospered,

And they shall all be blessed.

And He will help them all,

And light shall appear unto them,

And He will make peace with them'.

9 And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones

To execute judgement upon all,

And to destroy all the ungodly:

And to convict all flesh

Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,

And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
the bible verse you posted is speaking of Enoch the prophet, not quoting from a "book of Enoch".

merryheart said:
really?

not sure you're understanding me.....quoting from a book that is not Biblical does not your point make. The Bible verse is referring to Enoch the prophet, who has nothing to do with authoring or having anything to do with a "book of Enoch'

razeontherock · Mar 5, 2012

Booko said:
I'm not following the "son of man" reference here. "Son of man" is a title used in the Tenakh for prophets, Ezekiel being the poster child for that sort of reference.

But in Enoch it takes on a much more powerful role. Also, Jesus uses other phrases from Enoch. Most of His harder sayings quote Enoch. (Oh, and obviously anytime you quote something that everyone knows the source of, yes you're referencing it)

merryheart · Mar 5, 2012

brinny said:
not sure you're understanding me.....quoting from a book that is not Biblical does not your point make. The Bible verse is referring to Enoch the prophet, who has nothing to do with authoring or having anything to do with a "book of Enoch'

ok - but its a direct quote

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
not sure you're understanding me.....quoting from a book that is not Biblical does not your point make. The Bible verse is referring to Enoch the prophet, who has nothing to do with authoring or having anything to do with a "book of Enoch'

merryheart said:
ok - but its a direct quote

the Bible verse you quoted is from Enoch the prophet, not a book that is the very antithesis to anything of the Biblical God.

the book of Enoch has similarities to the written style of the Qu'ran....much like a patch work of finite, flawed thought, pieced together. However, the book of Enoch goes even further and is blatantly full of abominations that fly in the face of a holy God.

merryheart · Mar 5, 2012

brinny said:
the Bible verse you quoted is from Enoch the prophet, not a book that is the very antithesis to anything of the Biblical God.

the book of Enoch has similarities to the written style of the Qu'ran....much like a patch work of finite, flawed thought, pieced together. However, the book of Enoch goes even further and is blatantly full of abominations that fly in the face of a holy God.

whether or not the book of Enoch is true or good is not the point of my thread. It is the fact that the middle eastern people believed the stories in it, and because of that they 'protect' their women from the lust of angels.

oh - and indeed it speaks of abominations! so bad that a flood was required to cleanse the earth of it.

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
the Bible verse you quoted is from Enoch the prophet, not a book that is the very antithesis to anything of the Biblical God.

the book of Enoch has similarities to the written style of the Qu'ran....much like a patch work of finite, flawed thought, pieced together. However, the book of Enoch goes even further and is blatantly full of abominations that fly in the face of a holy God.

merryheart said:
whether or not the book of Enoch is true or good is not the point of my thread. It is the fact that the middle eastern people believed the stories in it, and because of that they 'protect' their women from the lust of angels.

Sounds superstitious. Superstitions are fear-based and oppressive.

as you are aware, sister in Christ, God is opposed to shackles and chains, and that is why he sent his only begotten son, to free us from such things, did He not?

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." ~II Timothy 1:7

Casting Crowns Set Me Free - YouTube

merryheart · Mar 5, 2012

brinny said:
Sounds superstitious. Superstitions are fear-based and oppressive.

as you are aware, sister in Christ, God is opposed to shackles and chains, and that is why he sent his only begotten son, to free us from such things, did He not?

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." ~II Timothy 1:7

yes, misguided. born out of superstition and fear - rather than lust and control

brinny · Mar 5, 2012

Originally Posted by brinny
Sounds superstitious. Superstitions are fear-based and oppressive.

as you are aware, sister in Christ, God is opposed to shackles and chains, and that is why he sent his only begotten son, to free us from such things, did He not?

"For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind." ~II Timothy 1:7

merryheart said:
yes, misguided. born out of superstition and fear - rather than lust and control

please, elaborate. thank you.

veiling and the book of enoch

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