Using condoms if you're married?

praying · Jan 25, 2005

stray bullet said:
As for sex for pleasure, this actually came up in a lecture (for a biology class, as you might have guessed, I studied biology in college) and the professor commented that actually, that's a big part of why animals reproduce.

No that is why they continue to do it.

They don't copulate thinking, "I'm going to increase the frequency of my genes in our population". All they are thinking is how great it feels and they are fulfilling their biological need/desire to reproduce.

They don't copulate thinking is correct, the rest is incorrect. They are driven by biological urges not because they are remembering or thinking, gee last rut that felt good, maybe I want to do it again. If that was the case they would mate/have sex all the time like humans whether the females were receptive (in cycle) for reproduction or not. See the idfference between animals and humans on a sexual level.

Ouch · Jan 26, 2005

Let us see...digging way back, I think the main topic of this thread was originally intended to have something to do with Christians who are married and want to use condoms to plan out when their children will arrive.

With all of your arguments from biology and psychology (ignoring the fact that they aren't necessarily supported by proven fact) have you given any biblical reason that a Christian might look at and think "Gee, I shouldn't use birth control."? I certainly haven't seen one, and it seems to me that 1 Corinthians 7 is very useful in arguing the other side. Do you have any Bible responses?

The Gregorian · Jan 27, 2005

you say 1 corinthians 7 was arguing against using birth control? Not the one I read:

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1 corinthians 7 said:

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1 corinthians 7 said:
Now, as to the things in your letter to me: It is good for a man to have nothing to do with a woman. 2 But because of the desires of the flesh, let every man have his wife, and every woman her husband. 3 Let the husband give to the wife what is right; and let the wife do the same to the husband. 4 The wife has not power over her body, but the husband; and in the same way the husband has not power over his body, but the wife. 5 Do not keep back from one another what is right, but only for a short time, and by agreement, so that you may give yourselves to prayer, and come together again; so that Satan may not get the better of you through your loss of self-control. 6 But this I say as my opinion, and not as an order of the Lord. 7 It is my desire that all men might be even as I am. But every man has the power of his special way of life given him by God, one in this way and one in that. 8 But I say to the unmarried and to the widows, It is good for them to be even as I am. 9 But if they have not self-control let them get married; for married life is better than the burning of desire.

This is talking about it's better to be married than to be "burning [with] desire." I.e. it's talking about the sex. Some people need sex more than others. This certainly isn't the only reason to get married, but it may be the difference between just being good friends with a member of the opposite sex and actually getting married and starting a family... and putting your mind to rest. Not only that, but in the first few verses it talks about how, upon marriage, the wife's body belongs to her husband, not to her, likewise the husband's body belongs to his wife. Then it talks about not 'keeping back from what is right" except for short times in order to pray.

Children are good, but whether a couple is ready for children or not, they need sex to stay spiritually healthy. Therefore birth control is ok.
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goofygirl16 · Feb 1, 2005

Saved13 said:
Is it okie for a Christian married couple to use condoms to help plan out when they want to have kids?

Of course it is. WHy not? What will it hurt?

xtxArchxAngelxtx · Feb 1, 2005

The Gregorian said:
you say 1 corinthians 7 was arguing against using birth control? Not the one I read:

[font=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]

This is talking about it's better to be married than to be "burning [with] desire." I.e. it's talking about the sex. Some people need sex more than others. This certainly isn't the only reason to get married, but it may be the difference between just being good friends with a member of the opposite sex and actually getting married and starting a family... and putting your mind to rest. Not only that, but in the first few verses it talks about how, upon marriage, the wife's body belongs to her husband, not to her, likewise the husband's body belongs to his wife. Then it talks about not 'keeping back from what is right" except for short times in order to pray.

Children are good, but whether a couple is ready for children or not, they need sex to stay spiritually healthy. Therefore birth control is ok.
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Exactly.

Also, I would like to mention the fact that some married couples back then also had child barring problems like some couples today do.
So were those couples not allowed to have sex due to the fact they were not having sex for procreation?

Illuminatus · Feb 1, 2005

mhatten said:
They are driven by biological urges not because they are remembering or thinking, gee last rut that felt good, maybe I want to do it again. If that was the case they would mate/have sex all the time like humans whether the females were receptive (in cycle) for reproduction or not. See the idfference between animals and humans on a sexual level.

Actually, IIRC, it's been proven that dolphins have sex for pleasure.

Ouch · Feb 1, 2005

The Gregorian said:
you say 1 corinthians 7 was arguing against using birth control? Not the one I read:

No, I was arguing that condoms were okay, and I thought 1 corinthians 7 supported that. Just like you.

The Gregorian · Feb 2, 2005

AHA. Yea, I get all excited like when I debate. (just a warning in case I offend anyone, No matter how weird I get I never get mad over a difference in opinion... so if I offend anyone, don't hesitate to verbally smack me in the face and say "chris, you're mean. stop it" put it simply, and I'll get it)

MoodyBlue · Feb 2, 2005

If we are having this much discussion over condom use by married couples, I am sure the fact that many married women have their tubes tied, or husbands have a vasectomy, would cause some to absolutely blow a few circuits just thinking about it. Unbelievable that this is controversial.

johnnymapson · Feb 2, 2005

Lokisdottir said:
What about somebody who intends never to have children, despite being physically capable?

I doubt condoms would be the choice form of birth control. they have to be about the worst form out there as far as I am concerned.

Lokisdottir · Feb 2, 2005

stray bullet said:
You are right.

These three people have been completely unaffected by 500+ million years of evolution. Unlike every other mammalian species, they have no desire to have and raise children.

Wow, that last 100 years really changed our genome, didn't it?

You didn't answer my questions. I'll condense it down to just the important one:

Even if I am a freak of nature, or biological fluke, for not wanting kids... WHY is that such a bad thing?

Once you've tackled that question, perhaps you can have a go at this one as well: How do you know that childfree people haven't always existed all throughout those millions of years? There have probably always been a few individuals in each species who don't want to reproduce, but they really had no choice, as there wasn't much in the way of birth control millions of years ago.

Perhaps there were a few cavepeople saying, "Ugh. Me no want babies. Me use condom made of leaves. That work, right?"

Okay, so that last line was tongue-in-cheek, but you get my point.

MoodyBlue · Feb 2, 2005

Lokisdottir said:
You didn't answer my questions. I'll condense it down to just the important one:

Even if I am a freak of nature, or biological fluke, for not wanting kids... WHY is that such a bad thing?

Once you've tackled that question, perhaps you can have a go at this one as well: How do you know that childfree people haven't always existed all throughout those millions of years? There have probably always been a few individuals in each species who don't want to reproduce, but they really had no choice, as there wasn't much in the way of birth control millions of years ago.

Perhaps there were a few cavepeople saying, "Ugh. Me no want babies. Me use condom made of leaves. That work, right?"

Okay, so that last line was tongue-in-cheek, but you get my point.

I think that couples who don't want children are not all that rare. The ones I know do not appear or act abnormal in any way. In fact they all seem to be quite happy. The plain fact is there are billions of people on this planet and it is "painting with a very broad brush" to suggest that everybody wants to have children. Looking at how many incompetent and/or selfish parents there are, it would be a good thing if more made the sensible decision to forgo having a family. All my opinion, of course.

Ouch · Feb 2, 2005

There don't seem to be too many people arguing that married couples shouldn't use birth control. Where have they gone?

Lokisdottir · Feb 2, 2005

MoodyBlue said:
I think that couples who don't want children are not all that rare. The ones I know do not appear or act abnormal in any way. In fact they all seem to be quite happy. The plain fact is there are billions of people on this planet and it is "painting with a very broad brush" to suggest that everybody wants to have children. Looking at how many incompetent and/or selfish parents there are, it would be a good thing if more made the sensible decision to forgo having a family. All my opinion, of course.

Well said.

Ouch said:
There don't seem to be too many people arguing that married couples shouldn't use birth control. Where have they gone?

Dunno. It kind of turned into a debate about the decision to be childfree, and whether it's normal or abnormal for a married couple to forego having children.

The Gregorian · Feb 2, 2005

Even if I am a freak of nature, or biological fluke, for not wanting kids... WHY is that such a bad thing?

In most people's opinions... it's not a bad thing. But... fundamentally, People are "supposed" to reproduce... so some fundamentalists think that if you don't get married at puberty and start popping out babys... it's a sin.

... which brings up an interesting point:

The "sin" is "wasting your seed." according to some people. This is why they say that masturbation is wrong... because it wastes seed (for men... but why is it wrong for women.. do people think women menstrate upon [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?). The logic is, if the "seed isn't being put to use properly" (through sex) it is wasted... but that would include everything from sex with birth control, masturbation... or just not having sex at all. If a man doesn't [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], the sperm just die and are replaced with a fresh batch.

So abstainance is no worse than birth control. If birth control is a sin... the day a boy hits puberty, or upon a girl's first period, then, it would be a sin, not to marry that very day and start having sex at least once a day for the rest of your life.

Obviously, it's unreasonable for a boy to be married upon puberty, therefore abstainance shouldn't be wrong. If abstainance isn't wrong, neither would be birth control. (masturbation's slightly different, because people can still "covet another man's wife" and whatnot... but even then... what about a married man masturbating with images of his wife in his head?)

that's my two cents.

Ouch · Feb 2, 2005

The Gregorian said:
that's my two cents.

Excellent 2 cents. It seems to me that taking "wasting of seed" as the point of the story of Onan is slightly irresponsible interpretation. He was supposed to fulfill a duty to his brother's wife, and he didn't want to do it. So his rebellion was the sin.

Still no sign of dissent...

GMRELIC · Feb 3, 2005

Saved13 said:
Is it okie for a Christian married couple to use condoms to help plan out when they want to have kids?

Don't see a problem with it at all

trunks2k · Feb 3, 2005

Antoninus Verus said:
Not enough for me to use them. Vasiline (commonly used as lubricant) can slowly disolve latex based condoms and make them much more prone to breakage. I actually have a friend who used condoms religiously and one time **SNAP** "Oh DAMN!" Her daughter is an absolutely beautiful little girl but that could have been avoided.

Well you shouldn't be using anything oil based on a latex condom, you should use water based lubricants. That's condom use 101.

Laboratory studies have shown that properly used, a condom will fail less than 2% of the time. As for protecting against STDs - condoms are very effective against HIV. Studies of two groups of couples, each with partners who had HIV showed that the group that reported using condoms, but not all the time resulted in something like a 20% transmission rate (I'd have to look it up it's somewhere on the CDC website) but the group that reported using condoms all the time had a 0% transmission rate.

Granted, if you are going to have sex and you are concerned with STDs and Pregnancy, the best route is to use either a female (i've heard that these are better, haven't seen any stats on it though) or male condom along with birth control.

trunks2k · Feb 3, 2005

johnnymapson said:
I doubt condoms would be the choice form of birth control. they have to be about the worst form out there as far as I am concerned.

According to http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/conceptbl.html :

Male condoms are the most effective barrier method of birth control, with a lowest expected failure rate of 3% and an typical rate of 14% (the typical includes people not using them properly). The female condom has a 5% min expected failure rate and a 21% typical. Sponges, cervical caps (split into previous births and no previous births) and diaphrams all have a greater than 5% min expected failure rate and range between 20 and 40% typical failure rate, with previous births taking the higher percentages..

Using a spermicide also has a min failure rate of 5% but has a 26% typical.

All hormonal methds have less than 1.5% min failure rate and 5% or less tyical rate. While hormonal implants have a higher min failure rate, their average typical rate is lower than oral contraceptives.

Oblivious · Feb 3, 2005

MoodyBlue said:
I think that couples who don't want children are not all that rare. The ones I know do not appear or act abnormal in any way. In fact they all seem to be quite happy. The plain fact is there are billions of people on this planet and it is "painting with a very broad brush" to suggest that everybody wants to have children. Looking at how many incompetent and/or selfish parents there are, it would be a good thing if more made the sensible decision to forgo having a family. All my opinion, of course.

I have never once had a desire to have children. My husband also does not have a desire to have children. Perhaps people think it's selfish or strange; frankly I don't care what people think! I think you bring up a great point about incompetent and/or selfish parents. I wish more people would put more thought into the decision to have children, and along that line, the decision of what type of birth control they're going to use if they are indeed sexually active, married or not.

To answer the OP, there is nothing wrong with condom use. Please don't take offensive, but I think it's sad that the question is even being asked. I don't understand why it would be wrong . And IMO it's unfortunate if someone is saying it is wrong.

Using condoms if you're married?

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