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That's pretty clearly not what Paul means. He describes what happens to those who are resurrected. Paul sees Christians as the "first fruits" of a larger group.All will be made alive but some will arise to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29
Another thing is, do you not realize when I said bible-believing universalists I was replying to someone who posted two kinds of universalists? I didn't just say it randomly... It was a REPLY to someone. So why don't you quote them? Read it carefully because I was replying to someone who said it was about those who believe Jesus is God and believe in the bible. So your post to me doesn't even make sense when it was in a RESPONSE to someone.I view belief in eternal punishment as a general tenant of the orthodox faith so you are correct when you say that I view universalists as heretics.
Another thing is, do you not realize when I said bible-believing universalists I was replying to someone who posted two kinds of universalists? I didn't just say it randomly... It was a REPLY to someone. So why don't you quote them? Read it carefully because I was replying to someone who said it was about those who believe Jesus is God and believe in the bible. So your post to me doesn't even make sense when it was in a RESPONSE to someone.
Did you not read that part or...?
One possibility I see in Paul is that between Christians as the first fruits, and God finally becoming all in all, we have a destruction of "every ruler and every authority and power." (15:24). It's certainly conceivable that some people are so identified with evil that they are destroyed.
While I've said that I don't commit to a specific position, I can imagine a mixed outcome, with most people finally saved, but a few being destroyed.
Interesting. I don't underestimate God's grace. I heard some people say the narrow way being the way to kingdom itself, not just new earth, which is based on knowing God and actually having a relationship with him (being born again and then finally glorified). And also I've heard people say that receiving eternal life actually means possessing it (having the Holy Ghost) rather than just living eternally on new earth because Jesus says he is life so having eternal life means having him living inside you. That could also make sense some people simply get destroyed because they continue to reject Christ and therefore just have so much evil. That can refer to people who take the mark of the beast too.One possibility I see in Paul is that between Christians as the first fruits, and God finally becoming all in all, we have a destruction of "every ruler and every authority and power." (15:24). It's certainly conceivable that some people are so identified with evil that they are destroyed.
While I've said that I don't commit to a specific position, I can imagine a mixed outcome, with most people finally saved, but a few being destroyed.
I heard people argue that by saying Jesus is life, because he is the way, the truth, and the life. So the narrow way leads to life (Jesus Christ and the kingdom, seeing his face) but not literally just living on New Earth unglorified forever.How is that consistent with Christ’s words concerning the narrow road?
Matthew 7:13-14
After another hard saying about the difficulty of salvation, the disciples asked the same question:How is that consistent with Christ’s words concerning the narrow road?
Matthew 7:13-14
I have a vision, which I don’t make any claims for. In heaven I don’t think there can be any remaining alienation between people. So if Hitler is saved (and I don’t claim that he will be), perhaps he has to apologize and be reconciled with each of the 3 million Jews, one by one.It's not that hard to believe Hitler will be scrubbing toilets on New Earth or Stalin will be a garbage man for all eternity on New Earth, knowing God's grace. Technically that is still eternal contempt in a way. Sure you live on new earth forever but you'll never get to see the face of the Lord in the kingdom and you will live far away from the light of New Jerusalem (outer darkness) and will need leaves for healing and will be free to drink out of the fountain of life, glorified bodies don't need that. I don't believe it quite yet, I'm not convinced, but I am open minded about it.
After another hard saying about the difficulty of salvation, the disciples asked the same question:
"When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astounded and said, “Then who can be saved?” But Jesus looked at them and said, “For mortals it is impossible, but for God all things are possible.”" (Mat 19:25-26)
Yes, it is hard for people to find the right path. But for God all things are possible.
For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?
What about in John 3:16 where it says "should not perish"?. Surely that's describing eternity as that passage refers to salvation of the soul? So how do you get around the word "perish" for the wicked then? If universalism was true?Hey @Justified_By_Christ_Alone. So the problem passages are (1) the wicked will perish, (2) everlasting destruction and (3) the second death (from the verse in Revelation?) Though more types may be added if the conversation continues.
Trying to get the topic back on track, for problem passages listed (2,) Christian universalists have made a great deal of effort to interpret “everlasting destruction” to mean an age enduring punishment.
The argument is that a number of these New Testament words (e.g. endless, eternal, forever) are actually the Greek word Aionius/aionios, and Aionius doesn’t necessarily mean forever, but can mean enduring for an age or long period of time. There are arguments from the Hebrew and the Septuagint in support of this.
Francis Chan (as an argument from authority,) in his Erasing hell book, concedes that’s a viable alternative (or at least that there’s ambiguity regarding hells duration.)
The debate about hell’s duration is much more complex than I first assumed. While I lean heavily on the side that says it is everlasting, I am not ready to claim that with complete certainty.A similar effort is made to show destruction in the phrase “everlasting destruction” isn’t in reference to an absolute state of nonexistent (if it were the case that wouldn’t satisfy the believer in eternal conscious torment either.)
Listening to Edward Fudge teach on the annihilation of the wicked may help answer many of the verses used in regards to problem verses (1,) since many of those verses in Fudges presentation were taken from the book of Psalms, which in most cases doesn’t appear to have been describing either eternal destruction or eternal torment, but rather the temporal ruin of wicked earthly rulers.
The ultimate fate of those wicked rulers (or any wicked person) wouldn’t be included in those Old Testament verses on temporal judgement, there’s normally a consensus that the OT has very little to say explicitly about a fiery place of eternal judgement.
Unless you think that only refers to the unholy trinity? Or that some people will indeed perish?
Hmm, since I don't try to land on a single conclusions since God in the end will do "immeasurably more than we can imagine or think" I have looked into the different ideas, some more than others.I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?
are you a trinitarian ?Wow and now people aren't allowed to have a different political position that you have as well? You need to come to terms that not everyone will agree with you. And you will be very lonely because you will always find someone who disagrees with you at least on something even if you may not realize it.
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?
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