Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

Saint Steven · Nov 4, 2020

Excerpt from an article titled: If Everlasting Punishment is not Eternal then how can Life be Eternal? (Matthew 25:46)

Too frequently Bible teachers and students take a small portion of Scripture out of context and build an entire doctrine on it. This is the case with Matthew 25:46. In the entire Greek New Testament we find the Greek words “kolasin aionion” occurring only a single time. This phrase has been translated “everlasting punishment” by most of the leading selling English Bible translations. The very foundation of most of modern Christianity is built upon salvation FROM eternal punishment in a place called Hell through faith in Jesus Christ. Yet the truth of the matter is that the concept of salvation being deliverance from “eternal punishment” is utterly false. The concept of “everlasting punishment” does NOT exist in either the Hebrew nor the Greek languages of the Christian Scriptures. Yes, it does exist in “some” leading selling English Bible translations, but not in the original languages of the Bible. MORE AT LINK BELOW

https://tentmaker.org/articles/Matthew-25-46-Commentary-Amirault.html

Der Alte · Nov 4, 2020

RickReads said:
The fire is God`s chastisement, the salting indicates that it purifies. It`s symbolic but like all Biblical symbolism, it has a literal application.

That is not correct. Salt preserves but it does not purify. What does "every one will be salted" really mean?
Lots of folks quote Mark 9:49 as if it was a free ticket for every criminal, crook etc. to enter paradise.

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.

The meat offerings were already clean. The salt did not make them clean. "Every one" in Mk 5:49 is not all mankind but every one who is saved.

Der Alte · Nov 4, 2020

RickReads said:
That`s strange, I found the references quite easily.
Talmud and Midrash: Additional Information
Can I go back to studying this discussion now?

Right! On a different page. But you ignored my quote from your link which refutes your argument about the Talmud being full of legends and mythology.

Ancient mythology seems to have been well known and liked by the Jewish masses. Again, in order to fight its influence, the rabbis reworked its content in their own spirit. They retained the mythological suspense—the sea tries to drown the earth—but there is no mythological struggle between equal powers; angels try to prevent the creation of man, but they do not possess titanic power. All are subdued by the command of God. Thus, the rabbis transformed the ancient myths into dramatic evidence against polytheism. (See also Jewish myth and legend.)

RickReads · Nov 4, 2020

Der Alte said:
That is not correct. Salt preserves but it does not purify. What does "every one will be salted" really mean?
Lots of folks quote Mark 9:49 as if it was a free ticket for every criminal, crook etc. to enter paradise.

Leviticus 2:13
13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
The meat offerings were already clean. The salt did not make them clean. "Every one" in Mk 5:49 is not all mankind but every one who is saved.

Sorry about that. My remark was merely based on an orthodox understanding of the verse.
Mark 9:49 Commentaries: "For everyone will be salted with fire.

RickReads · Nov 4, 2020

Der Alte said:
Right! On a different page. But you ignored my quote from your link which refutes your argument about the Talmud being full of legends and mythology.

Ancient mythology seems to have been well known and liked by the Jewish masses. Again, in order to fight its influence, the rabbis reworked its content in their own spirit. They retained the mythological suspense—the sea tries to drown the earth—but there is no mythological struggle between equal powers; angels try to prevent the creation of man, but they do not possess titanic power. All are subdued by the command of God. Thus, the rabbis transformed the ancient myths into dramatic evidence against polytheism. (See also Jewish myth and legend.)

You already blew your chances of having a dialogue with me. Please pester some of the other posters to this thread with your blather.

Der Alte · Nov 4, 2020

RickReads said:
Sorry about that. My remark was merely based on an orthodox understanding of the verse.
Mark 9:49 Commentaries: "For everyone will be salted with fire.

None of those "orthodox" sources support the erroneous UR claim that Mark 9:49 means that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, will be saved. e.g. here is the first one,

Here our Lord speaks of the spiritual sacrifice which each man offers of his body, soul, and spirit (Romans 12:1), and declares that “salt,” the purifying grace of the Eternal Spirit, is needed that it may be acceptable. Punishment, the pain which we feel when brought into contact with the infinite Righteousness represented by fire, may do its work in part; but it requires something more for completeness. The sacrifice must be “salted with salt,” as well as with “fire.” To use another figure, there must be the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as well as that of fire (Matthew 3:11).

Here is the second one,

I take the ‘every one’ of my text to mean not mankind generally, but every individual of the class whom our Lord is addressing-that is to say, His disciples. He is laying down the law for all Christians. I take the paradox which brings together ‘salting’ and ‘fire,’ to refer, not to salt as a means of communicating savour to food, but as a means of preserving from putrefaction.

And number 3.

That is, every person who offers himself unto God in repentance, faith, and new obedience, as a living sacrifice; shall be salted with salt — Even with the salt of divine grace, which purifies the soul, (though frequently with pain,) and preserves it from corruption.

Feel free to actually read all these "orthodox" sources and see if any of them support universal reconciliation [UR.]

Der Alte · Nov 4, 2020

RickReads said:
You already blew your chances of having a dialogue with me. Please pester some of the other posters to this thread with your blather.

No problem I will continue to show how you misquote and quote sources out-of-context. Nothing you have linked to disproves anything I have posted.

chad kincham · Nov 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
There are conflicting statements in your post.

First you say:
"Anyone in hell... got there by literally going over Jesus’ dead body...rejecting Him as their savior."

Then you say:
"Paul clearly wrote that those who never heard of Jesus are judged by how they obeyed Gods laws..."

How did "those who never heard of Jesus" go to hell "over Jesus’ dead body...rejecting Him as their savior" ?

Ok, there are two ways to go to hell, so shoot me.

That doesn’t make universalism into the truth.

chad kincham · Nov 4, 2020

Der Alte said:
None of those "orthodox" sources support the erroneous UR claim that Mark 9:49 means that all mankind, righteous and unrighteous alike, will be saved. e.g. here is the first one,

Here our Lord speaks of the spiritual sacrifice which each man offers of his body, soul, and spirit (Romans 12:1), and declares that “salt,” the purifying grace of the Eternal Spirit, is needed that it may be acceptable. Punishment, the pain which we feel when brought into contact with the infinite Righteousness represented by fire, may do its work in part; but it requires something more for completeness. The sacrifice must be “salted with salt,” as well as with “fire.” To use another figure, there must be the baptism of the Holy Ghost, as well as that of fire (Matthew 3:11).
Here is the second one,

I take the ‘every one’ of my text to mean not mankind generally, but every individual of the class whom our Lord is addressing-that is to say, His disciples. He is laying down the law for all Christians. I take the paradox which brings together ‘salting’ and ‘fire,’ to refer, not to salt as a means of communicating savour to food, but as a means of preserving from putrefaction.
And number 3.

That is, every person who offers himself unto God in repentance, faith, and new obedience, as a living sacrifice; shall be salted with salt — Even with the salt of divine grace, which purifies the soul, (though frequently with pain,) and preserves it from corruption.
Feel free to actually read all these "orthodox" sources and see if any of them support universal reconciliation [UR.]

It might help to know what the fire is there:

1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the FIERY trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

chad kincham · Nov 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

A rose by any other name, etc.

Hell by any other name is still eternal torment.

chad kincham · Nov 4, 2020

RickReads said:
The fire is God`s chastisement, the salting indicates that it purifies. It`s symbolic but like all Biblical symbolism, it has a literal application.

And Jesus said we ARE the salt of the earth.

chad kincham · Nov 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
LOL
Just because I have a different understanding of things doesn't mean I didn't READ the Bible. That's ridiculous.

Where does this irrational hatred of Universalism come from? Why can't UR be discussed like any other doctrine? Bible thumpers come completely unhinged. I have actually been shunned by other Christians over this. Even you talk to me as if I am stupid. Can't we have a calm discussion?

The over-reaction seems to indicate that UR is more likely true than not. Again... Where does this irrational hatred of Universalism come from? Damnationists will fight tooth and nail to keep their forever-burning hell. Any rational person would be happy to be rid of it.

We hate all doctrines of demons that deceive people into eternal damnation, like OSAS or Universalism.

Der Alte · Nov 4, 2020

Saint Steven said:
...

Saint Steven said:
Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".
Wesley's New Testament (1755)
Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
The N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE) Roman Catholic
Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

How many times does it have to be repeated "all irrelevent?" Notice how many are single person "translations" all of which reflect the bias of the translator.
What might make your argument is credible, verifiable, historical, grammatical, lexical etc. evidence showing conclusively that the "hell no" position is correct and the hell translations are not correct.
When President Lincoln was criticized for how he was conducting the civil war he said,

"If I were to try to read much less respond to every criticism this office would be closed for any other business. I do the best I can the best I know how and mean to keep doing so until the end. If the end brings me out wrong 10 angels swearing I was right would make no difference

Noxot · Nov 4, 2020

Justified_By_Christ_Alone said:
I am open about universalism, I just don't know how you guys get past some verses. If you have an explanation for them I will hear you out. For example, all of the verses that say the wicked will perish, everlasting destruction, the second death, etc.? How do you explain those verses about perishing and the wicked getting destroyed?

mostly the Bible and God speak about spiritual reality which is the fundamental reality that we exist as, this material world being a kind of secondary expression of spirit.

All those verses that you mention can be explained by the idea of spiritual purification, a process in which evil elements in us are destroyed and the good elements are preserved by God.

Noxot · Nov 4, 2020

It is irrational to think that unrighteous men are saved when the very Act of Salvation leads to being like God is. people will wallow in the mire as long as they want. they will eventually get bored and return home.

Saint Steven · Nov 4, 2020

chad kincham said:
Ok, there are two ways to go to hell, so shoot me.

That doesn’t make universalism into the truth.

Probably more than two.
How many gospels are you claiming?

Saint Steven · Nov 4, 2020

chad kincham said:
And Jesus said we ARE the salt of the earth.

That has nothing to do with this.

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

ewq1938 · Nov 4, 2020

Universalists: How do you explain the "problem passages"?

You can call me Steve

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