Universal Salvation and Belief

cloudyday2 · Jan 8, 2016

juvenissun said:
Brother, I know you love your pets. But do not be disappointed, they can't make it. The wise king Solomon revealed, their soul goes down to the ground, not up to the Heaven.

Obviously Solomon wasn't so wise after all, because he didn't know about the Rainbow Bridge:
https://rainbowsbridge.com/Poem.htm

BeStill&Know · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
Here's a good joke with a lot of truth in it.
http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/webjokes/dogheaven.html

Read this before but worth reading again... I can't see Jesus not allowing (or have waiting) my best friends to join me in His company, when it is He who blessed my life so much because of them.

cloudyday2 · Jan 8, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
The Church's historic position on this issue is that Universalism, because of its dogmatism, cannot be accepted; that doesn't mean it is impossible that all will ultimately be saved, the Church has long hoped for, prayed for, that this be the case.

Couldn't we argue that humans are not discrete. We are always changing, and we are connected to everything else in the world. If God is going to save anybody then he must save everybody and everything - past, present, and future. In a sense, we die every moment and we are born every moment, and we exist only in our imagination.

Another way of looking at this is that we all live eternally, because we exist in God's eternal mind. Personally, I want death to be the end of me.

fatboys · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
There are some verses in the NT that mention belief in the process of salvation. (e.g. Acts 16:30-33). On the other hand, if belief is required for salvation, then several problems are created:
(1) Is belief a choice or a response to evidence?
(2) Is belief a human work or a gift of grace from God?
(3) How much belief is required for salvation? Are you really saved?

Maybe we can eliminate these problems by assuming universal salvation. The "good news" to be preached is universal salvation. The role of belief is to give people the necessary hope to begin living more righteous lives. This is why people believe and are then baptized.

So can you find some quotes from the Bible or other early Christian writings to show this idea is wrong?

Actually there is universal salvation. Every person born or will be born will be saved. It is a free gift given to us for being born and the resurrection of Christ.

cloudyday2 · Jan 8, 2016

In a nutshell, it seems to me that Christianity might make more sense if we think of belief as irrelevant to a person's fate in the afterlife. Belief in Christianity is like belief in anything else. Your belief arises from personal experience and the experiences of others that you trust. You have some confidence in the belief, but you aren't entirely certain. You consider that belief when you are making choices. A good belief leads to good choices. So the "good news" is simply a hope that you can test in your personal life. As you gain confidence in the "good news" and the teaching of Jesus, then your life should be more righteous.

The alternative is to imagine belief as the pixie dust of Peter Pan. God sprinkles his pixie dust whimsically so that a lucky few will fly away to heaven while the rest burn in hell forever. It's kind of silly IMO.

ViaCrucis · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
Couldn't we argue that humans are not discrete. We are always changing, and we are connected to everything else in the world. If God is going to save anybody then he must save everybody and everything - past, present, and future. In a sense, we die every moment and we are born every moment, and we exist only in our imagination.

Another way of looking at this is that we all live eternally, because we exist in God's eternal mind. Personally, I want death to be the end of me.

Biologically it's true that our cells are always dying and being replaced with new ones. It's also true that our minds are quite mutable and so our personal identity, as far as the neurology of our brains and our ever-shifting and changing psychology goes, is shifting, changing, etc. In a large way who we are today can be quite different from who we were yesterday and who we will be tomorrow.

Though at the same time there is something of an identity, barring major brain injury or trauma, our experiences over a lifetime have shaped us. And while memories are somewhat subjective, the impression on us from an experience is still there, informing our self. Further, at the biological level we are a rather specific set of genetic instructions, we are encoded in our DNA. But more importantly--as far as Christianity is concerned--there is something of a permanence to our personhood and identity, that rather nebulous and hard-to-define something that we often call "the soul". There is a something about us which makes us more than just bio-chemical clockwork. The human creature, in Christian teaching, is a psychosomatic creature, we are both body and soul, and both are fundamentally what makes me me. The fallenness of the soul and the mortality of the body are, in Christ, redeemed and set forward in and by Him to an eternal permanence in the resurrection and Age to Come.

Crucially, our salvation is the salvation from the impermanence of our own present mortality. Resurrection means more than just the mere resuscitation of the body, it is the full renewal, restoration, and reconstitution of what and who we are, specifically, who and what we are in Christ. The drunkard is not raised again as a drunkard, the liar is not raised again as a liar, the paraplegic is not raised again as a paraplegic, the leper is not raised again as a leper. All that was injured, broken, and fallen shall be healed and restored, and all that is good shall be ever the more good. Nothing good shall be lost.

How all this actually looks and plays out is unknown, we but see through the glass dimly.

-CryptoLutheran

juvenissun · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
An honest "I don't know" is better than a confident answer that is based on malarkey. There is no reason to choose one religion's answer over another religion's answer, and in some cases the correct answer may not have been imagined by any religion.

If the Bible makes you happy, then that is fine. I think the Bible is interesting. I think there are clues to the origins of Judaism and Christianity buried in the Bible's text. I like the story of Balaam's donkey. God was a charter member of the SPCA it seems Some of the sayings of Jesus are good too. I like Ecclesiastes.

If several religions addresses the same question, then we need some independent criteria to make a better choice. But the situation is that many atheistic questions can not be answered by any other religions except the Christianity. Now I do think Christianity have answers to ANY theological question anyone may ever have.

When I gradually discovered this fact, I was really excited about the doctrine of Christianity. I like to show you what I know. But the most wanted thing in my mind is a question which is apparently not be able to answered by Christianity. I posted this challenge many times. So far, I still don't get any.

juvenissun · Jan 8, 2016

BeStill&Know said:
View attachment 168374

My understanding (combined the Bible and science) is that animals have never lived in the Garden from the very beginning. They lived "outside" of the Garden. The Garden is for human only.

juvenissun · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
In a nutshell, it seems to me that Christianity might make more sense if we think of belief as irrelevant to a person's fate in the afterlife. Belief in Christianity is like belief in anything else. ...

The alternative is to imagine belief as the pixie dust of Peter Pan. God sprinkles his pixie dust whimsically so that a lucky few will fly away to heaven while the rest burn in hell forever. It's kind of silly IMO.

juvenissun · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
In a nutshell, it seems to me that Christianity might make more sense if we think of belief as irrelevant to a person's fate in the afterlife. Belief in Christianity is like belief in anything else. ...

The alternative is to imagine belief as the pixie dust of Peter Pan. God sprinkles his pixie dust whimsically so that a lucky few will fly away to heaven while the rest burn in hell forever. It's kind of silly IMO.

Yes, this is silly. SO IT SHOULD NOT BE TRUE.
The Salvation system set by God is logic and reasonable. SO IT COULD BE TRUE.
The salvation systems set by other religions have fundamental logic problems.

No, they are not the same. In fact, they are very different.

juvenissun · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
Obviously Solomon wasn't so wise after all, because he didn't know about the Rainbow Bridge:
https://rainbowsbridge.com/Poem.htm

I think Solomon do clearly know what the rainbow mean. It is the sign God choose to witness the Covenant made with human.

juvenissun · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
Couldn't we argue that humans are not discrete. We are always changing, and we are connected to everything else in the world. If God is going to save anybody then he must save everybody and everything - past, present, and future. In a sense, we die every moment and we are born every moment, and we exist only in our imagination.

Another way of looking at this is that we all live eternally, because we exist in God's eternal mind. Personally, I want death to be the end of me.

Very philosophical.
But, if the Christianity is true, then it would not be up to you to choose. Like it or not, you will live forever.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jan 8, 2016

First of all, the Bible is clear that unredeemed men will dwell forever in hell. Jesus’ own words confirm that the time spent in heaven for the redeemed will last as long as that of the unredeemed in hell. Matthew 25:46 says, “Then they [the unsaved] will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” According to this verse, the punishment of the unsaved is just as eternal as the life of the righteous. Some believe that those in hell will eventually cease to exist, but the Lord Himself confirms that it will last forever. Matthew 25:41 and Mark 9:44 describe hell as “eternal fire” and “unquenchable fire.”

How does one avoid this unquenchable fire? Many people believe that all roads—all religions and beliefs—lead to heaven, or they consider that God is so full of love and mercy that He will allow all people into heaven. God is certainly full of love and mercy; it was these qualities that led Him to send His Son, Jesus Christ, to earth to die on the cross for us. Jesus Christ is the exclusive door that leads to an eternity in heaven. Acts 4:12 says, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5). In John 14:6, Jesus says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 3:16, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” If we choose to reject God’s Son, we do not meet the requirements for salvation (John 3:16, 18, 36).

With verses such as these, it becomes clear that universalism and universal salvation are unbiblical beliefs. Universalism directly contradicts what Scripture teaches. While many people accuse Christians of being intolerant and “exclusive,” it is important to remember that these are the words of Christ Himself. Christians did not develop these ideas on their own; Christians are simply stating what the Lord has already said. People choose to reject the message because they do not want to face up to their sin and admit that they need the Lord to save them. To say that those who reject God’s provision of salvation through His Son will be saved is to belittle the holiness and justice of God and negate the need of Jesus’ sacrifice on our behalf.

createdtoworship · Jan 8, 2016

fatboys said:
Actually there is universal salvation. Every person born or will be born will be saved. It is a free gift given to us for being born and the resurrection of Christ.

If we are all saved regardless of faith, or repentance,

then the crucifixion was a terrorist act, not a salvation message.....

it was an act that is unjustified, God would at that point be a murderor,

premeditated, and you know, the works.

God allowed the son to be Crucified for a reason.

the verse that says "

For God so loved His son so that all who believe should not perish..."

John 3:16....

universalism is a hoax.

because someone could effectively be saved, and not even believe in salvation,

go to heaven and not even believe in it.

be christian and not even believe in Christ.

universal salvation is wishful thinking at best.

no.....

rather the Bible dictates faith plus repentance as the recipe for salvation.

and it's faith in certain things, and repentance from disobediance in order to become a follower of God.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jan 8, 2016

juvenissun said:
Brother, I know you love your pets. But do not be disappointed, they can't make it. The wise king Solomon revealed, their soul goes down to the ground, not up to the Heaven.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jan 8, 2016

fatboys said:
Actually there is universal salvation. Every person born or will be born will be saved. It is a free gift given to us for being born and the resurrection of Christ.

Just out of curiosity. Where did you get that information?

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jan 8, 2016

cloudyday2 said:
God sprinkles his pixie dust whimsically so that a lucky few will fly away to heaven while the rest burn in hell forever. It's kind of silly IMO.

I just figured out what IMO means. Lol, I am an idiot when it comes to text acronyms.

(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ) · Jan 8, 2016

juvenissun said:
I think Solomon do clearly know what the rainbow mean. It is the sign God choose to witness the Covenant made with human.

Nihilist Virus · Jan 8, 2016

juvenissun said:
In order to have salvation, one NEEDS to do something.
This concept is only fair.
Free lunch is not a fair idea.

Jesus gave free lunch to thousands of people.

ViaCrucis · Jan 9, 2016

<Staff Edit>

I wasn't aware that white people had, en masse, come up with a system of morality.

-CrytpoLutheran

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