Universal Reconciliation

ZoneChaos said:

Question...

What happenes if we fail to reconcile to God before we die?

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Hi Zone Chaos.

We cannot fail to reconcile to God before we die.

2 reasons.

Firstly, reconcilliation has nothing to do with us and everything to do with God

Secondly, the reconcilliation of every man, woman and child who has ever lived, or will ever live, has already taken place in Jesus Christ.

Blessings, Pete

ZoneChaos said:

And that scenario would have made the best sense if salvation were universal.. But for whatever reason, God wanted man to have a choice to accept or reject salvation.

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So you would accept that God has created and continually creates people He already knows will fall, so He may punish them forever?

ZoneChaos said:

Simply: He can mediate between us and God because of His dual nature of being fully god and Fully man... Father is God, Jesus is God, Jesus is Man, we are man. What happens when we die, and lose all that makes us man? Our flesh? We lose that link between us and Jesus Christ, our mediator.

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If this is the case, no longer can Jesus be a mediator between man and God, because He died He must have lost His link with us? So when we die if we are not men, what are we?

ZoneChaos said:

Deeper: It is apoointed to man to die once, then judgement. After death, we are judged, not saved, not wait around a while, then get saved when we are ready. We die, we are judged by the merits: by what we did or did not do in Life.. namely, Beleive and accept salvation by grace through Faith. Salvation by grace, through faith is meaningless after death, because Faith is no longer required, as everything is known. Things are no longer hoped for and thigns are no longer unseen. Death takes faith out of the equation, and thus nullifies the equation: salvation no longer is possible.

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What is judgement? Judgement will be Christ showing us all truth and again only out of love. And judgement has a cleansing purpose just like fire:

Isaiah 4
4 The Lord will wash away the filth of the women of Zion; he will cleanse the bloodstains from Jerusalem by a spirit of judgment and a spirit of fire.

Also I'm not sure I agree that death would remove the need for faith, but faith is still a gift from God:

1 Corinthians 12
9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,

But this is an excellent point! If we know of Jesus after we die, is it still faith?

ZoneChaos said:

Jesus Christ, as God, is the same yesterday, today and always. He has always been, and always will be. Jesus was our mediator then as well as now. It was Jesus Christ, the Son of god who walked with Adam in the garden. It was Jesus who was with Enoch and with Elijah.

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OK, I can accept that. However, it would seem to open a common question against UR and that is if Christ was saving people then why was His sacrifice required?

ZoneChaos said:

Actually, contend is used int he KJV, whoch I believe is the version I quoted. The KJV, NKJV, NASB, RSV, ASV, HNV, Webster's, and Darby all use "contend".

If I were to read the verse above, I would use the definition of "accuse" where accuse it, and not "contend". I would then get a very different verse.

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KJV:
Isaiah 57
16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

Surely God must be wroth against those trapped in eternal hell, otherwise why would He keep people there? And how will He show love to those trapped in hell?

1 Chronicles 16
34 Give thanks to the LORD , for he is good;
his love endures forever.

ZoneChaos said:

Seperation does not mean He is not in control. Hell will still exist. Satan will be seperate from Him, yet God is still all in all. The Beast, the AntiChrist, all those that will go into the lake of fire will be seperate from him, and yet He is still allin all, so it is with man. Man can and will be seperate from God for eternity, if man chooses to, and God will still be God.

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So God will be living through all the people living in hell? I thought hell would have been the most sinful place ever?

ZoneChaos said:

But it is Israel... just not the nation proper, but rather the saved. The two groups a mentioned in my last post were: All mankind or all those who were saved (non-universalist view).

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Romans 11
26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Why does Paul link Israel with Jacob, if He is not talking about the actual people from Israel?

ZoneChaos said:

What scripture? I know of "salvation by faith thorugh grace... faith being key there...


I agree with Roman's 9, but in conjuction with Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:"

Without Faith, as I asked above, how is there salvation?

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But again its up to God, faith is from God. If God does not give us faith there is nothing we can do about it.

john14_20 said:

Hi Zone Chaos.

We cannot fail to reconcile to God before we die.

2 reasons.

Firstly, reconcilliation has nothing to do with us and everything to do with God

Secondly, the reconcilliation of every man, woman and child who has ever lived, or will ever live, has already taken place in Jesus Christ.

Blessings, Pete

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Romans 11
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

2 Corinthians 5
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Colossians 1
20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

I'm curious; is the idea that you have to use the name Jesus, or that you have to accept God? Can you accept God without accepting Jesus, given the theological assertion that they're the same entity?

ZoneChaos said:

Yes, poeple are created, who God knows will fail. however, it is the will of man, through sex, that these people are created, and it is not a punishemnt of God, for being sinful, but a punishemnt of sin for being sinful.

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This is not correct, it was a command from God after the fall:

Genesis 9
7 As for you, be fruitful and increase in number; multiply on the earth and increase upon it."

God is the Creator not man:

Job 10
18 "Why then did you bring me out of the womb?
I wish I had died before any eye saw me.

Jeremiah 1
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.

ZoneChaos said:

Many universalists come to be universalists becasue they come to a place where they see God as the one who would be at fault for our sins, and yet cannot accept that God would punish us. The thing is, eternal seperation is not a punishment, but a by-product of a sinful nature, one we were not originally created with.

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What need is there for judgement for good and bad things done then? If we are just separated...

Revelation 20
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

2 Corinthians 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

And if its just separation or not, then why would Jesus say for some judgement would be more bearable?

Luke 10
14But it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.

What does God consider justice?

Zechariah 7
9 "This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'Administer true justice; show mercy and compassion to one another.

ZoneChaos said:

The whole point of Him being mediator was that he died and rose again.

This allows Him to be a mediator bwteen us and God. He retained His human nature after death.. we cannot.

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If we lose our human nature, what do we become?

ZoneChaos said:

Where in this definition is accountability?

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2 Corinthians 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

ZoneChaos said:

Jesus Christ, as God, is the same yesterday, today and always. He has always been, and always will be. Jesus was our mediator then as well as now. It was Jesus Christ, the Son of god who walked with Adam in the garden. It was Jesus who was with Enoch and with Elijah.

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OK, I can accept that. However, it would seem to open a common question against UR and that is if Christ was saving people then why was His sacrifice required?

ZoneChaos said:

It isn't as if God is "keeping" them at all. They are 100% seperate from God, for eternity. They are not kept... The exist eternally in this seperation. God I do not think would forget them, but in all appearances, it is as if they did not exist to God.

This may sound harsh, but onw thing has nothig to do with the other. God is Love, and God endures forever. Also, They are seperate from that Love, being seperate from God.

God will not be "living" through them, since they will not be alive. Only the saved shall recieve "life" eternally.

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Why would He bother resurrected people who are already separated from Himself through death (because the wages of sin is death), they may as well just stay in the grave?

Romans 6
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

But again if this is the final state how will God be all in all?

1 Corinthians 15
28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

Can we be somewhere God is not?

Jeremiah 23
23 "Am I only a God nearby,"
declares the LORD ,
"and not a God far away?
24 Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD .
"Do not I fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD .


Colossians 1
17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

ZoneChaos said:

Under the new covanent, all Christians are "Israel": God people.

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Where is this stated?

Jeremiah 31
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD ,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.

Hebrews 8
8But God found fault with the people and said:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.


Finally why would Jesus say this, if He will not follow the same path:

Matthew 5
44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

ZoneChaos said:

you must accept that the man, named Jesus Christ, was and is God.. and you muist accept that this man, Jesus Christ, the Son of God is your only savior and LOrd, and that He is the only way to heaven, is by the Grace of God, through Jesus Christ, by having Faith in Jesus Christ.

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This would be pretty bad for Abraham and Moses, no?

seebs said:

I'm curious; is the idea that you have to use the name Jesus, or that you have to accept God? Can you accept God without accepting Jesus, given the theological assertion that they're the same entity?

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Isaiah 45
21 Declare what is to be, present it-
let them take counsel together.
Who foretold this long ago,
who declared it from the distant past?
Was it not I, the LORD ?
And there is no God apart from me,
a righteous God and a Savior;
there is none but me.
22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
24 They will say of me, 'In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength.' "
All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame.

Philippians 2
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10
9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

1 Corinthians 12
3Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

seebs said:

This would be pretty bad for Abraham and Moses, no?

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Moses and Abraham are OK.

Romans 4
3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

James 2
23And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

John 8
56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

Matthew 17
3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.


But the billions that didn't get this chance before they died, that would be a problem! But luckily:

Mark 10
26The disciples were even more amazed, and said to each other, "Who then can be saved?"
27Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

seebs said:

I'm curious; is the idea that you have to use the name Jesus, or that you have to accept God? Can you accept God without accepting Jesus, given the theological assertion that they're the same entity?

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Hey seebs

love your user title!

So, people who appear to us to have never even heard of Jesus may yet somehow be saved, because they have faith in God... Very useful, but at that point, why not just say that faith in God is the requirement, and explain that Jesus is the mechanism by which God saves you, but ignorance of the road sign need not prevent you from walking the road?

seebs said:

So, people who appear to us to have never even heard of Jesus may yet somehow be saved, because they have faith in God... Very useful, but at that point, why not just say that faith in God is the requirement, and explain that Jesus is the mechanism by which God saves you, but ignorance of the road sign need not prevent you from walking the road?

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The resurrection comes through Jesus for all (none are excluded):

1 Corinthians 15
21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

1 Corinthians 15
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Acts 24
15and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

But we must also all face judgement:

2 Corinthians 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Yes but the problem lies in that all the people on a sinking boat want to be saved. The reason we accept Jesus is that we have realized that we are not good enough in and of ourselves to live up to Gods standards. To accept forgiveness we must first realize that we need forgiven. In the case of those that do not realize that they need forgiven and hence reject Christ, when the people on the ship don;t think they are in any danger and deny the help of the rescue team, what then?

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But couldn't you say that their thinking that they are not in any danger is something they must be saved from? Wouldn't their lack of desire or obtuseness just show how really fallen they are and how much they really need to be saved? Would not god need to save them from themselves?

Robby said:

But couldn't you say that their thinking that they are not in any danger is something they must be saved from? Wouldn't their lack of desire or obtuseness just show how really fallen they are and how much they really need to be saved? Would not god need to save them from themselves?

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I think that's it robby!

We don't truly know the condition of our own heart!

Romans 2
2Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.

Romans 2
16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Hebrews 4
12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-­edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

John 16
8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:

This is why we MUST all face judgement:

2 Corinthians 5
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

I'm curious; is the idea that you have to use the name Jesus, or that you have to accept God? Can you accept God without accepting Jesus, given the theological assertion that they're the same entity?

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I find it interesting that many of the less conservative -- though I would by no means consider them liberal -- theologians today consider, for example, the greek relation to deity to be quite true in certain cases; that when Jesus said no man comes unto the Father but by (not through) Him, He is referring to His metaphysical existence -- the Logos of John 1 -- rather than the necessity of salvific faith; that is to say, other religions don't have salvation, though they are quite on the right track.

Peter Kreeft summed it up this way:

If one knows God, then one knows Jesus,
X knew God,
Therefore, X knows Jesus

I find the conservatives approaching this from a completely new angle; that the second premise is replaced with "X knew Jesus", and the conclusion stated that "X knows God". Of course, there are some interesting places in Acts that would seem to contradict this, not to mention that Abraham was a moon-worshipping pagan, as was Job -- a heathen --, as was Melchizadec -- the very one compared to Christ in the book of Hebrews!

ZoneChaos said:

Let me re-ask this question, and ask a new one:

What happenes if we do not accept Jesus Christ as our personal Lord and Savior before we die?

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What does God do before we die? He lovingly and graciously calls us to accept what Jesus has made of us and sit back and enjoy existence in His presence. (Not that the unbeleiver does not exist in His presence, it's just that he does not know this) What will happen after we die? Nothing different. He will continue to lovingly and graciously call us.

God does not have love and grace and mercy - these are part of His very being. So He can only ever act toward us in this way. Grace, love and mercy are not things that God turns off when we die. This is an erroneous teaching of the church that the world as believed, and it is not found in the Scriptures.

And, do you see reconciliation as being equal to salvation?

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No. Reconcilliation means (as in my closing quote) that Jesus has put an end to all things that separate from His Father. He has made us fit for relationship, and in fact drawn us into a participation in His relationship, with the Father. Salvation is about knowing and accepting that this has happened. Not knowing or not accepting it cannot undo it - the reconcilliation will still be done - but there is no enjoyment in a gift that is not wanted or not understood. So God will still keep doing what He does best.

"If hell be eternal, then so too is the offer of acceptance"


“The very hell of hell lies precisely in the fact that its inhabitants will be insisting on a perpetual rejection of an equally perpetual gift. It will be an eternal struggle to escape from the grip of a love that will never let them go.” (Capon, 2000: 139)



Capon, R.F. The Parables of the Kingdom (Eerdmans, Michigan: 2000)

Blessings, Pete