Universal Reconciliation is still unscriptural.

Der Alter said:

In 1 Cor 6:11 was Paul preaching to the dead in graves or were they still alive? He was talking to living people who had been unrighteous and while they were still alive they became righteous. Now please explain to me how you can make that verse equal UR?

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Der Alter said:

Fail nothing same ol' twisting vss. out-of-context. There is no time restrictions?

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You can read. As i said, in 1 Cor.6:9-11 & similar passages you quoted.

Der Alter said:

That is correct as long as they are living they can do exactly as the Corinthians did. But,

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Der Alter said:

John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
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Der Alter said:

Now tell me where Jesus said those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit will be forgiven

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To be honest, Universal Reconciliation is something I hope for. Or at least hope that all may be given the chance to believe on Christ and be saved, likely on the Last Day. But it's also something the Scriptures seem to both hint at, and negate, depending on where you look. So honestly, I don't know. I can hope, but don't want to be stodgy.

I also am getting the sense that the Catholic Church does not typically leave room for this being a possibility, whereas depending on whose writings you read and how you read them, it seems to be an idea that the Eastern Orthodox Church can be more open to. But this doesn't make it true, either. Just wondering.

Der Alter said:

The usual link to tents-я-us but when I quote from them you ignore it. Why is that?

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Why should i respond to those cut & paste quotes from another person, not you? Is there some point to it all?

Gracia Singh said:

I also am getting the sense that the Catholic Church does not typically leave room for this being a possibility, whereas depending on whose writings you read and how you read them, it seems to be an idea that the Eastern Orthodox Church can be more open to. But this doesn't make it true, either. Just wondering.

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Did you see the thread re the Pope recently appointing a universalist:

Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist

Here's the article, with a comments section following it, on that topic:

Mahound's Paradise: Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist - All Men Will Be Saved - to Replace Müller as Head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith


The Catholic Church and Universalism

Der Alter said:

"The many" not "the all!" I get lots of offers "just for me" but I don't accept them.

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There is a parallel between the first half of v.19 & the latter half:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Rom.5:18:
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. (NIV)
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (NASB)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. (KJV)

Der Alter said:

All men are literal descendants of Adam so by nature we are "in Adam" but all men are not in Christ. Why did you omit this vs.?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

Why does this make a distinction "they that are Christ's?" If there are some that "are Christ's" then there must be some who "are not Christ's." This out-of-context proof text says nothing about the second group.

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"AS in Adam ALL die
SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
BUT each in his own order:

1. Christ the Firstfruit;

2. Then they that are Christ's, at His coming;

3. Then cometh the end [order], WHEN He shall deliver
up the kingdom to God, even the Father; WHEN He shall
have abolished ALL rule and ALL authority and power.
For He must reign. TILL He hath put all His enemies
under His feet. THE LAST ENEMY THAT SHALL BE ABOLISHED
IS DEATH. (1 Cor. 15:22-26, R.V.)."

"...But each in his own order. Not a "but" of exception,
rather a "but" of order. ALL are to be made alive but at
different times. "Each in his own order." Three orders
are enumerated and located in relation to other events:

1. Christ the Firstfruit — Three days alter His death.

2. Then those who are Christ's — At His coming.

3. Then the end [order] — WHEN He shall deliver up the
kingdom."

"It is the third or "end" order that many overlook. A
thoughtful reading of this passage will enable most be-
lievers to see clearly that the words "then cometh the
end" refer to this end order to be made alive. The sub-
ject the apostle is elucidating is: The order in which
all who die in Adam will be made alive in Christ (vs. 22-
24). Christ the firstfruit (order one) and those who
are Christ's at His coming (order two) comprise only
a small part of the all who die in Adam. A third order
is necessary to make all alive. To refer the "end" to
anything else is to ignore the context and to introduce
something foreign to the subject. It cannot possibly
refer to an end of the kingdom, for though the kingdom
will be "delivered up" to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24), it
will never end (Luke 1:33)."

"Four statements in this passage indicate that the
words "then cometh the end" refer to the making alive
of an end order.

1. "As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made
alive. But each in his own order" (vs. 22. 23).

2. "The last enemy that shall be abolished is death" (vs. 26).
It is the making alive of ALL that will abolish death. As long
as any remain dead, death has not been abolished.

3. "When all things have been subjected unto the Son" (vs.
27, 28). The dead must ALL be made alive if all are to be sub-
jected unto the Son. The only exception in this subjection is
God the Father.

4. "That God may be All in all" (vs. 28). This requires that
all be made alive. As long as any remain dead God cannot be
ALL in ALL, for He is not the God of the dead (Luke 20:37, 38)."

As in Adam all die

Der Alter said:

Really? Seriously? I have to go back 23 pages to find a post by Clem that is not bits and pieces copy/pasted from tents-я-us? It should be the other way round, I should have to go back 23 pages to find a post by Clem that was copy/paste.

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Okay now you're not even trying. I linked the post, and had you clicked on it you would have seen that the post wasn't "by Clem". Come on, now.

I'm sticking a fork in this thread, 'cause baby, it's done.
Some of us have a life, after all.

Blood sacrifices were once offered up for the forgiveness of sins. Today, it is common practice for the dead in purgatory to obtain indulgence from God through the Catholic Church for remission of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven. So, in other words, the Catholic Church intervenes for the individual by asking Father God, who stores up our good works, to apply some of them in lieu of punishment due to sins. But these indulgences are limited to those who die in the communion of saints - the faithful dead only. The Churches fail to teach the complete redemptive work of Christ. The Gospel message of salvation must reach to all humans in all places of all times. Our good works can be offered up for the atonement of sins of the unfaithful dead hell as well.



The Bible teaches that atonement is required for the forgiveness of sin. These stored up good works held by God are unfathomably immense according to the Catholic Church. They could at some time be applied for the atonement of all the dead in hell. Salvation for all humans is not out of the range of possibilities.

1 Corinthians 15:22. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

1 Timothy 4:10. That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 Corinthians 15:28. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

ClementofA said:

Did you see the thread re the Pope recently appointing a universalist:

Pope Francis Appoints a Universalist

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I looked at the articles quoted. They describe inclusivism, not universalism. That is, they indicated that Christ died for all (which is widely accepted outside Calvinism), and that there's hope for anyone, whatever their religion. Saying that there's hope for everyone is inclusivism. It's common among Orthodox and modern Catholics. That's quite different from saying that we know everyone is going to be saved.

Gracia Singh said:

I also am getting the sense that the Catholic Church does not typically leave room for this being a possibility, whereas depending on whose writings you read and how you read them, it seems to be an idea that the Eastern Orthodox Church can be more open to. But this doesn't make it true, either. Just wondering.

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AFAIK the RCC allows for the possibility of all human beings getting saved. Thus you can be a hopeful universalist. Many RC's go beyond that & believe in universalism, i.e. that all will be saved. Who can say if that is a majority of RC's or not?

From "Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God", p.66 via the Paulist Press, 1994:

"The Church, which invokes its infallibility in the canonization of the saints, has never done so with regard to the damned. We cannot know with certainty if even one human soul does in fact go to hell" (quoting Karl Rahner).

https://www.amazon.ca/Good-Goats-Healing-Our-Image/dp/0809134632

"Karl Rahner, S.J. (5 March 1904 – 30 March 1984), was a German Jesuit priest and theologian who, alongside Henri de Lubac, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Yves Congar, is considered one of the most influential Catholic theologians of the 20th century."