- Dec 26, 2007
- 8,567
- 3,943
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Unorthodox
- Marital Status
- Single
Some just read the scripture as presented in their bibles, too.
Upvote
0
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Some just read the scripture as presented in their bibles, too.The ECF were native Greek speakers and lived 100s of year nearer the time the NT was being lived out and written. Maybe they had a much better knowledge of the Greek than people today who know virtually nothing about Greek. Some folks must rely on their teachers and pastors who often interject their own assumptions/presuppositions into the scripture.
That is unfortunate.Some folks must rely on their teachers and pastors who often interject their own assumptions/presuppositions into the scripture.
So......it just comes down to behavior, then? Works?(29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
"Could very well be forgiven" in some imagined second or third "aion" beyond the present one is hardly a scriptural certainty, and not stated in scripture anywhere. Please see how the early church understood these verses in my [link: post #33] above.
And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I am making all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Total nonsense and you know it.
How did Paul's immediate audience understand 1 Cor 3:9-17? They did not have umpteen years of indoctrination in UR, they were not looking for proof text vss. to pull out-of-context to support UR. They would certainly have understood that vss. 9-12 was referring to them the Christians at Corinth, Paul uses the first person pronoun "
we" then the second person pronoun "you." Would they have understood that Paul then suddenly, with no indication, in vss. 13-15, Paul is now talking about all mankind? Then suddenly again in vss. 16-17 Paul is talking about them again, the Christians at Corinth.
Where is it written that Robert Young, a self taught Bible "scholar," is a pontiff who must be obeyed to the exclusion of all other scholars? This is known as cherry picking, find something, written by somebody, somewhere and tout that writing as the end all, be all authority.
You are reading your proof text wrong. It does not say that all sins will be forgiven to all men.
Just another in a long line of selectively quoted out-of-context proof texts. The writer is not making a theological statement about God and all mankind only his own condition and he also states a condition for God's forgiveness.Lam.3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the sons of men.…
I'd be more receptive of this grammatical argument if you could quote some accredited scholars."World" in that passage is "age" (aion). Evidently there's more than one age/world to come (see Ephesians 2:7's mention of the plural "coming ages" -- again, "aion", same word). So while it might not be forgiven in the world/age to come, it could very well be forgiven in the world/age coming after that.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of mankind, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
Who is "mankind"? All people. The human race.
"all shall be forgiven" them(the human race)...i.e. all sins and blasphemies.
But for the fact that the belief in hell in the church predates all those by 100s of years and my evidence, e.g. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaiaca, Talmud etc., has never been refuted or even adequately addressed.I think references to pontiffs would apply more aptly to those of the dark ages of belief in Dante's Inferno, Crusades, Inquisitions, & burning any & all opposers at the stake.
Is that like "everybody knows" or "everybody says?" Right about here is where you should be posting some credible, verifiable, historical evidence but alas you have none only the UR bible tents-я-us.As to your comment about "all other scholars", they are not all opposed to Young's translation &, no doubt, many would agree with him.
Meaningless jejune deprecations which prove absolutely nothingAs to the translation you posted:
Your "qualified" men following the Douay & KJV traditions of men of "the church" of the Inquisitions, Crusades & dark ages have been caught in a deception (Jer.8:8-9):
Please attribute this or tell me how many credit hours of Greek you have earned? Amateurs should refrain from arguing Greek grammar and translation with virtually no expertise in Greek. Such attempts only reflects their doctrinal assumptions/presuppositions . The usual meaningless copy/paste from tents-я-us deleted.Considering, then, that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions as "everlasting". Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions with age-lasting, eonian & the like gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in any specific context. What biased scholars after the Douay & KJV traditions of the dark ages "church" have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.
I agree but when Paul is addressing or speaking about "angels, demons, other churches, prostitutes, etc." he always clearly identifies his audience or subject. But go ahead and prove otherwise. There is no such change of subject identification in 1 Cor 3:9-17.No, it's true that 1 Corinthians speaks of subjects besides the church in Corinth. It speaks of angels, demons, other churches, prostitutes, etc. But go ahead try to prove otherwise.
Assuming that all of Paul's letters to individual churches were immediately sent to all the other churches throughout the Mediterranean, Italy, Greece, Asia, Israel. etc. and forgetting the fact that the letters were not all written at the same time, some years apart. The 1st century Christians, unlike us, did not have PCs where they could immediately call up the entire NT, with several versions, which OBTW had not been compiled in the 1st century, and compare verses in different letters.I would think they would have read & studied Paul's letters carefully. If so then they would have realized the following:
First....I want to preface this with the statement that I'm not willing to get into a debate over translations. I believe only the Spirit is capable of truly interpreting John's words properly here (and there's NO WAY to prove/disprove that.....only belief/faith).
It seems to me (at this point in time).....that since this passage does say, "I am making all things new".....wouldn't it make sense that would mean, in part, "no more sin" (or even a desire to sin--all within humanity's free will)?
There can't be (to my mind) no more pain, no more sorrow, no more death if there's still those that even WISH to lie....idolize other gods.....or harm others. I'm thinking the "second death" is the point in which ALL humanity has eventually come to fully love and trust Him (and then sin is truly dead).
He's already conquered death in one sense.. ....He's "making things new" with cooperation of humanity. IOW......in my opinion, for instance, those with the propensity to murder will eventually no longer have even those desires to murder (the old is new.....the "former things are passed away" v 4). Isaiah 43:18 says,
former things shall not be remembered
or come into mind.Another way of saying that would be that the 2nd death is the death to ego....to selfish desires.....death to unrighteousness (in my opinion). The overall theme of judgement in the Bible seems to focus particularly upon one’s “works” as opposed to just the particular individual.
Unfortunately I don't see a lot of that in UR-land. Which is why I cite so many credible, verifiable, sources e.g. lexicons, ECF etc. Because I see so many folks with virtually no expertise in the Biblical languages arguing with years and years of scholarly experience of internationally known Bible scholars.Some just read the scripture as presented in their bibles, too.
Unfortunately I don't see a lot of that in UR-land. Which is why I cite so many credible, verifiable, sources e.g. lexicons, ECF etc. Because I see so many folks with virtually no expertise in the Biblical languages arguing with years and years of scholarly experience of internationally known Bible scholars.
I should have known Jesus actually meant to say that unless we change and become like the Early Church Fathers, top-notch bible commentators and accredited scholars, we will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3 got it wrong, I guess.I'd be more receptive of this grammatical argument if you could quote some accredited scholars.
Is that why Unis on this forum seek out and incessantly quote folks like Robert Young, E.W. Bullinger, Ilaria Ramelli, tentmakers anyone who supports UR? And OBTW they also quote church fathers like Clement, Origen etc. who, they claim, also support UR. But as we see they bad mouth me because I quote "the Early Church Fathers, top-notch bible commentators and accredited scholars " etc." Looks like they got this little hypocritical thing going. I started learning to speak Greek the year that Elvis and I were stationed in Germany and I studied both Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level 2 decades after that. While I do not claim to be an "expert" I do know when people, who couldn't parse a Greek verb or locate a Hebrew verb if their life depended on it, try to snow me and tell me what the Hebrew and the Greek "really" means.I should have known Jesus actually meant to say that unless we change and become like the Early Church Fathers, top-notch bible commentators and accredited scholars, we will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18:3 got it wrong, I guess.
"Scholars? What scholars?" ~ the bible
Just another in a long line of selectively quoted out-of-context proof texts. The writer is not making a theological statement about God and all mankind only his own condition and he also states a condition for God's forgiveness
No matter how you twist and wrest it the verse does not say all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of "all" mankind,.
.....Matthew 7:22-23
.....(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
.....(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Please attribute this or tell me how many credit hours of Greek you have earned?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?