Uniting

strikerchris0411 said:

I know this sounds a little crazy even to ask


But does anyone think all the different froups of faiths will ever unit to one christian body?

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We are already and have always been united as one Christian body .

But , you are talking about the clubs uniting as one club . That won't happen . In order for that to happen , most of the clubs would need to give up some of their most cherished doctrines . The Catholic group has already stated that they will not do that - not even one core doctrine would be rejected for the sake of unity . So , all would have to come under the Catholic pope . Of course , many noncatholics will not come under the Catholic pope for any reason . That is only one small matter involving one group .

More people are leaving the institutional groups because they don't see leadership as defined by those groups as necessary . Most groups would not unite unless they keep a certain type of leadership structure . So , that leaves out many of our home groups .

Groups define themselves by their doctrines . Giving them up for unity or anything else is very difficult .

People cannot even agree with the meaning of the word "tithe" ... that says a lot .

Well yes - but not this side of heaven sadly!

I think the description of the groups as 'clubs' is a fair one, but we also need to examine our own hearts - we are all prejudiced about something and it is prejudice that stands in the way of unity!

Ask yourself what group of humanity you don't like to be around? That is your prejudice - and until we all face and overcome our prejudice we will not easily unite with others.

Pete

I still say that all believers are united at present . Disagreements in doctrine don't divide us - there is only an appearance of such because of the denomination dynamic .

Interesting position, so you think that a Roman Catholic would happily worship and take communion with the Southern Baptists or the Seventh Day Adventists or the Society of Friends then?

I think I know where you are coming from in that as far as God is concerned there is only One Body of Christ and that we are all One as He is One - but I am afraid that the denomination dynamic you speak of is in fact devisive and prevents the unity that Christ prayed for and some of us hope for.

Pete

People either have HolySpirit or they dont. Kinship between anyone filled with HS is obvious... but not always fruitful!!!

But does anyone think all the different froups of faiths will ever unit to one christian body?

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Not in my lifetime--How many different "baptist" groups are there?

pete56 said:

Interesting position, so you think that a Roman Catholic would happily worship and take communion with the Southern Baptists or the Seventh Day Adventists or the Society of Friends then?

I think I know where you are coming from in that as far as God is concerned there is only One Body of Christ and that we are all One as He is One - but I am afraid that the denomination dynamic you speak of is in fact devisive and prevents the unity that Christ prayed for and some of us hope for.

Pete

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I am not talking about "as far as God is concerned" as if the Lord is in some sort of denial while we are in reality .

I wrote :

I still say that all believers are united at present . Disagreements in doctrine don't divide us - there is only an appearance of such because of the denomination dynamic .

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The denomination thing is only devisive to those who are religious . That is why it "appears" to be divisive . As far as Christians are concerned , they don't allow the club factor to divide them .

I don't need to be physically near someone in order to proclaim "unity" . If that were so , there will never be unity because of the physical distances between all of us on the earth .

The need to agree with doctrine and physically meet together cannot define unity because it can't physically happen .

I suppose that I just don't care that denominations exist . They can deal with the idea that most have about unity while sleeping with their doctrines made to keep that definition of unity from existing .

Striker,

I think I follow your logic, but is it supported biblically?

My understanding of the chronology that will/is leading up to the End Times (to use the doctrinal title) is that the church will become divided against itself and more and more distant from its primary function (the church of Laodocia from Revelation 3), but the really important next thing to be looking for is the 'Church of Philidelphia' - the true brotherhood of believers as the followers of Christ DO unite to do the things that Christ wants! Of course the sadness for the world is that as that happens we(or at least I am) are expecting the Rapture that will take all true believers to heaven ahead of the tribulation!

Now I know that there are at least two other interpretations of the sequence of the end times, the Rapture and the Tribulation etc, and I'm also very aware that this is one of the issues that has divided the church in the past, so I am not in any way trying to suggest that everyone needs to believe the same way that I do. All I will leave you with is the words of Christ - Stay awake and be ready!

Pete

And whether we are or are not in the End Times matters because...?

.... because Yahshua said "Watch" "be alert" "stay awake" "pray constantly" "for wisdom and strength to endure" et al.

there is a 'unitry' coming - the 'peace,peace' when there is no peace. a deceptive peace treaty, false through and through from the beginning. Yahshua warned us, and warns us daily.
all of the world's churches are being unified in the one world church, or maybe summed up is a better way to put it.

while the martyrs immersed in Yahshua are summed up in Him with all who obey Him.

in over 80 countries, the martyrs are overcoming by the word of their testimony and the blood of the lamb; even while they are and have been for a long long time suffering tribulation and persecution for the Messiah's Sake. - being tortured daily(in 2006), put to death, imprisoned, dismembered, starved, beaten, all manner of evil against them by governments and religious leaders who hate the truth and will never learn it(as it is written in Scripture, so it is).
[still pray for those G_d says to pray for, and not for those He says not to - repentance or judgment, according to Scripture always]
RE VOM, voice of the martyrs for reports of the tribulation already occuring daily in many many countries against G_d's Chosen.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

.... because Yahshua said "Watch" "be alert" "stay awake" "pray constantly" "for wisdom and strength to endure" et al.

there is a 'unitry' coming - the 'peace,peace' when there is no peace. a deceptive peace treaty, false through and through from the beginning. Yahshua warned us, and warns us daily.
all of the world's churches are being unified in the one world church, or maybe summed up is a better way to put it.

while the martyrs immersed in Yahshua are summed up in Him with all who obey Him.

in over 80 countries, the martyrs are overcoming by the word of their testimony and the blood of the lamb; even while they are and have been for a long long time suffering tribulation and persecution for the Messiah's Sake. - being tortured daily(in 2006), put to death, imprisoned, dismembered, starved, beaten, all manner of evil against them by governments and religious leaders who hate the truth and will never learn it(as it is written in Scripture, so it is).
[still pray for those G_d says to pray for, and not for those He says not to - repentance or judgment, according to Scripture always]
RE VOM, voice of the martyrs for reports of the tribulation already occuring daily in many many countries against G_d's Chosen.

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Beloved,
Jesus said forgive them, they dont know what they are doing. He said love your enemies.

Paul the apostle was once an enemy of God killing Christians thinking he was doing god a favor.

But OUR FATHER had mercy on him and showed him the grace of Jesus.

I am praying for everybody forgiving them all. Our father
send his rai on the just and the unjust.

S it should be with us.

With love in Christ
brother daniel

To follow christ is not a truimphant act, it is the way of upsidedown logic and higher values through lower status. What disturbs me about "end-timers" (and this isnt aimed at anyone here neccisarily) is their sense f "better than" the world, or "more enlightened". We are all in a process of being saved, of christ revealing himself to us... would pin my hopes on the christ who came us the butt-end of humanity to lift us up, rather than the doom-bringer.

If we rise with christ it is because of his grace and not our clever understanding of scripture. Relationship not enlightenment, IMO.

to share the suffering of the Messiah Yahshua , to keep His Testimony and overcome sin by His Blood is very triumphant, just not in the world's eyes(the big beoutiful church bldg is often not His). those who share Yahshua's life also share His humiliation at the hands of man. they go and are outside the gate of respectability as Hebrews says -
Yahshua's followers areoften considered ignorant, stupid, misfits, outcasts and even called crazy by their own family (as Yahshua was once).
Yahshua's followers are often homeless, not allowed a job, not welcome by leaders in union halls or political meetings or religious clubs.
but the poor and the helpless and the sick and the lame and the blind REJOICE ! at Yahshua's Word, Yahshua's Kindness and True Love;
the captives REJOICE! at the Word, the Light, that sets them free.

Yahshua's followers do forgive those who persecute them and torture them and put them in prison and to death.
There are some in the Scripture that G_d's Word tells us NOT to pray for - Yahshua's followers do as He says in all things, not just what 'feels' right or good, but as they see Abba say and do, they do. That's one reason they get persecuted so much by the church people for - they do what Abba says to do, not what man says, and the church people can't accept that.

Other people want the approval of the church people or of their friends or families or some person, so they don't follow Yahshua.
Yahshua said simply: "You're not here to seek approval, but Truth."
and "Unless you hate your own father and mother and brother and sister and , yes, even your own life, you cannot be My Disciple."
So He gives people a choice - continue comfortable with the people you depend on or want approval from, OR give everything you love and cherish up for My Sake and come follow Me, then you will have Eternal Life a free gift from My Father.

as Yahshua prayed In Scripture with eyes wide open looking up, "I praise you Father that you have hidden Your Kingdom from the religiously ' wise' and understanding(scholars and priests), and have revealed it to these infants (His disciples), for thus it was Your Good Pleasure. And not just to these (disciples), but also to all those who believe because of them, who come after them to You because of their testimony of Me. Father, I don't ask that you take them out of the world, but that You keep them,sanctified by Your Word, safe from the wicked one."

FLANDIDLYANDERS said:

To follow christ is not a truimphant act, it is the way of upsidedown logic and higher values through lower status. What disturbs me about "end-timers" (and this isnt aimed at anyone here neccisarily) is their sense f "better than" the world, or "more enlightened". We are all in a process of being saved, of christ revealing himself to us... would pin my hopes on the christ who came us the butt-end of humanity to lift us up, rather than the doom-bringer.

If we rise with christ it is because of his grace and not our clever understanding of scripture. Relationship not enlightenment, IMO.

Click to expand...

yeshuaslavejeff said:

to share the suffering of the Messiah Yahshua , to keep His Testimony and overcome sin by His Blood is very triumphant, just not in the world's eyes(the big beoutiful church bldg is often not His). those who share Yahshua's life also share His humiliation at the hands of man. they go and are outside the gate of respectability as Hebrews says -
Yahshua's followers areoften considered ignorant, stupid, misfits, outcasts and even called crazy by their own family (as Yahshua was once).
Yahshua's followers are often homeless, not allowed a job, not welcome by leaders in union halls or political meetings or religious clubs.
but the poor and the helpless and the sick and the lame and the blind REJOICE ! at Yahshua's Word, Yahshua's Kindness and True Love;
the captives REJOICE! at the Word, the Light, that sets them free.

Yahshua's followers do forgive those who persecute them and torture them and put them in prison and to death.
There are some in the Scripture that G_d's Word tells us NOT to pray for - Yahshua's followers do as He says in all things, not just what 'feels' right or good, but as they see Abba say and do, they do. That's one reason they get persecuted so much by the church people for - they do what Abba says to do, not what man says, and the church people can't accept that.

Other people want the approval of the church people or of their friends or families or some person, so they don't follow Yahshua.
Yahshua said simply: "You're not here to seek approval, but Truth."
and "Unless you hate your own father and mother and brother and sister and , yes, even your own life, you cannot be My Disciple."
So He gives people a choice - continue comfortable with the people you depend on or want approval from, OR give everything you love and cherish up for My Sake and come follow Me, then you will have Eternal Life a free gift from My Father.

as Yahshua prayed In Scripture with eyes wide open looking up, "I praise you Father that you have hidden Your Kingdom from the religiously ' wise' and understanding(scholars and priests), and have revealed it to these infants (His disciples), for thus it was Your Good Pleasure. And not just to these (disciples), but also to all those who believe because of them, who come after them to You because of their testimony of Me. Father, I don't ask that you take them out of the world, but that You keep them,sanctified by Your Word, safe from the wicked one."

Click to expand...

Beloved,
There is a unity for us to experiance.

Psa 133:1 [[A Song of degrees of David.]] Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is] for brethren to dwell together in unity.

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

With love in Christ
brother daniel

Indeedily-doodily-do.

There's a unity in a FEW simple certainties, thank God.
And at least the IRS grants extensions.

A little wordy, but giving a little depth to our idea of unity anyway, John Gill:


John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ephesians 4:13[/FONT]
Till we all come in the unity of the faith…
These words regard the continuance of the Gospel ministry in the church, until all the elect of God come in: or "to the unity of the faith"; by which is meant, not the union between the saints, the cement of which is love; nor that which is between Christ and his people, of which his love, and not their faith, is the bond; but the same with the "one faith", (Ephesians 4:5) and designs either the doctrine of faith, which is uniform, and all of a piece; and the sense is, that the ministration of the Gospel will continue until the saints entirely unite in their sentiments about it, and both watchmen and churches see eye to eye: or else the grace of faith, which as to its nature, object, author, spring, and cause, is the same; and it usually comes by hearing; and all God's elect shall have it; and the work and office of the ministry will remain until they are all brought to believe in Christ;
and of the knowledge of the Son of God;
which is but another phrase for faith in Christ, for faith is a spiritual knowledge of Christ; it is that grace by which a soul beholds his glory and fulness, approves of him, trusts in him, and appropriates him to itself; and such an approbatory, fiducial, appropriating, practical, and experimental knowledge of Christ, is here intended; and which is imperfect in those that have it, and is not yet in many who will have it; and inasmuch as the Gospel ministry is the means of it, this will be continued until every elect soul partakes of it, and arrives to a greater perfection in it: for it follows,
unto a perfect man;
meaning either Christ, who is in every sense a perfect man; his human nature is the greater and more perfect tabernacle, and he is perfectly free from sin, and has been made perfect through sufferings in it; and coming to him may be understood either of coming to him now by faith, which the Gospel ministry is the means of, and encourages to; or of coming to him hereafter, for the saints will meet him, and be ever with him, and till that time the Gospel will be preached: or else the church, being a complete body with all its members, is designed; for when all the elect of God are gathered in and joined together, they will be as one man; or it may respect every individual believer, who though he is comparatively perfect, and with regard to parts, but not degrees, and as in Christ Jesus, yet is in himself imperfect in holiness and knowledge, though hereafter he will be perfect in both; when he comes unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
not of Christ's natural body, but of his mystical body the church, which will be his fulness when all the elect are gathered in; and when they are filled with his gifts and graces, and are grown up to their proportion in it, they will be come to the measure and stature of it: or it may be understood of every particular believer, who has Christ formed in him; who when the work of grace is finished in him, will be a perfect man in Christ, and all this will be true of him; till which time, and during this imperfect state, the Gospel ministry will be maintained: the phrase is taken from the Jews, who among the forms and degrees of prophecy which the prophets arrived to, and had in them the vision of God and angels, make (hmwq rwev) , "the measure of the stature" F26, a principal one; and is here used for the perfection of the heavenly state in the vision, and enjoyment of God and Christ.
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