Understanding Paul

1John2:4 · Jan 28, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
Could you please clarify a little what specifically you are referring to and the corresponding chapter and verses in Galatians? This would help me to see exactly what you are referring to in Galatians. Thanks.

I am sorry my post is so confusing, sometimes I have a hard time getting my point across. It's in Galatians chapters 3,4 and 1/2 of 5 and relating to Genisis 17. I do not know how the circumsision relates to the law on Mount Sinai as being the bondage they were acts of 2 different covenants, both everlasting. I understand we are not justified (saved) by works. I am just trying to understand how it all fits together. If we are bought with a price under the Abrahamic covenant we are to be circumsised yet the one Paul seams to be battling against is the Mount Sinai covenant.

gadar perets · Jan 28, 2017

1John2:4 said:
I am sorry my post is so confusing, sometimes I have a hard time getting my point across. It's in Galatians chapters 3,4 and 1/2 of 5 and relating to Genisis 17. I do not know how the circumsision relates to the law on Mount Sinai as being the bondage they were acts of 2 different covenants, both everlasting. I understand we are not justified (saved) by works. I am just trying to understand how it all fits together. If we are bought with a price under the Abrahamic covenant we are to be circumsised yet the one Paul seams to be battling against is the Mount Sinai covenant.

Are you aware that circumcision is also part of the law?

Lev 12:1 And YHWH spoke unto Moses, saying,
Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

1John2:4 · Jan 28, 2017

gadar perets said:
Are you aware that circumcision is also part of the law?

Lev 12:1 And YHWH spoke unto Moses, saying,
Lev 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
Lev 12:3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.

Yes, thank you I am aware it is a part of the law of given on Mount Sinai, however I believe that that is not what Paul is referencing in Galatians 3,4 and 5. He is speaking of the heirs of Abraham.

Galatians 3:15
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Genisis 17: 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

mark kennedy · Jan 28, 2017

1John2:4 said:
Yes, especially this part, is what I question. This is where I get hung up. I understand that we are not saved by the works of the law but this does not have to do with the law that was added years later. Circumsision was applied during this time for hiership. Thanks so much for your reply!! I will Exodus 4:25 if you think that will help

No you need not Ex. 4:25 me, I was circumcised for medical reasons as an infant, thanks just the same if that's what you mean. Anyway, all kidding aside, this is a distinction for the descendants of Abraham practiced to this day and honestly, I'm not really sure why.

gadar perets · Jan 29, 2017

1John2:4 said:
Yes, thank you I am aware it is a part of the law of given on Mount Sinai, however I believe that that is not what Paul is referencing in Galatians 3,4 and 5. He is speaking of the heirs of Abraham.

Galatians 3:15
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Genisis 17: 12 He who is eight days old among you shall be circumcised, every male child in your generations, he who is born in your house or bought with money from any foreigner who is not your descendant. 13 He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

Based on those Scriptures, what have you concluded? That circumcision is for believers, is not for believers, or something else?

1John2:4 · Jan 29, 2017

gadar perets said:
Based on those Scriptures, what have you concluded? That circumcision is for believers, is not for believers, or something else?

I have not really concluded, I am confused to what Paul is saying. Maybe I will look into that book that Steve recommend. Thanks so much for your help with this

ToBeLoved · Jan 29, 2017

1John2:4 said:
I am sorry my post is so confusing, sometimes I have a hard time getting my point across. It's in Galatians chapters 3,4 and 1/2 of 5 and relating to Genisis 17. I do not know how the circumsision relates to the law on Mount Sinai as being the bondage they were acts of 2 different covenants, both everlasting. I understand we are not justified (saved) by works. I am just trying to understand how it all fits together. If we are bought with a price under the Abrahamic covenant we are to be circumsised yet the one Paul seams to be battling against is the Mount Sinai covenant.

That is not my understanding of how it relates back to Abraham.

Abraham was justified by faith, which is a shadow of the Messiah when all are welcome to be justified by faith.

Those under Messiah and the New Covenant are the sons of the promise as Abraham was promised that he would be the father of many nations.

I'm on my mobile and cannot look up the verses.

See Galatians 3:15-21. It explains that the promise was not because of the law, but was to faith through Messiah.

danny ski · Jan 29, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
That is not my understanding of how it relates back to Abraham.

Abraham was justified by faith, which is a shadow of the Messiah when all are welcome to be justified by faith.

Those under Messiah and the New Covenant are the sons of the promise as Abraham was promised that he would be the father of many nations.

I'm on my mobile and cannot look up the verses.

See Galatians 3:15-21. It explains that the promise was not because of the law, but was to faith through Messiah.

because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions-Genesis 26-5. It would seem that Paul's explanation needs a bit more work.

ToBeLoved · Jan 29, 2017

O

danny ski said:
because Abraham obeyed me and did everything I required of him, keeping my commands, my decrees and my instructions-Genesis 26-5. It would seem that Paul's explanation needs a bit more work.

what commands were those?

There was no law, so those were what God asked if Abraham. However just because Abraham was ALSO obedient, takes nothing away from the fact that Abraham had righteousness IMPUTED to him, because of his faith.

Because of his great faith, Abraham is the father of all New Covenant believers Because we are the nations that are of Abrahams seed.

gadar perets · Jan 29, 2017

1John2:4 said:
Hi everyone and Shabbat Shalom. I am at the point of my Bible reading where I read Paul. I was hoping one of you could help to understand circumcision in Galatians. The objection that I find is circumcision has nothing to do with the law that was given on Mount Sinai but everything to do with the Covenant issued to Abraham in Genisis 17: 9-14. I thought in Christ we are bought with a price and according to the everlasting covenant with Abraham we should be circumsised not according to the law given on Mount Sinai but the everlasting covenant given to Abraham. I am really interested in hearing your feedback on this because it is troubling me.

As I understand it, Paul was coming against the belief in justification by works. Certain people were teaching that it was necessary to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be made righteous (justified) and to be saved. They believed that the promises of inheritance made to Abraham would not be given to those who were not circumcised Torah keepers. So Paul says in Galatians 3:17 that the Sinai Covenant (the Law) cannot make the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant null and void (a law cannot make void a promise). He goes on to show that the promises will not only be realized by the Jews, but also by the Gentiles who became Abraham’s seed by faith.
Later, in chapter 5, Paul addresses the heart of the issue; that if a believer gets circumcised, as per Torah, in order to be justified, he is fallen from grace. Why? Because he is seeking justification by works rather than by faith in Messiah Yeshua.

mark kennedy · Jan 29, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
That is not my understanding of how it relates back to Abraham.

Abraham was justified by faith, which is a shadow of the Messiah when all are welcome to be justified by faith.

Those under Messiah and the New Covenant are the sons of the promise as Abraham was promised that he would be the father of many nations.

I'm on my mobile and cannot look up the verses.

See Galatians 3:15-21. It explains that the promise was not because of the law, but was to faith through Messiah.

The Galatians passage is a good one, the 'seed' of Abraham is not plural it's singular, and that seed is Christ.

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:14)

The Law could not disannul the promise of the Spirit by faith, thus the inclusion of the Gentiles:

And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. (Gal. 3:17,18)

The Law was predated by a promise, that is now extended to whosoever will.

Grace and peace,
Mark

1John2:4 · Jan 29, 2017

gadar perets said:
As I understand it, Paul was coming against the belief in justification by works. Certain people were teaching that it was necessary to get circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be made righteous (justified) and to be saved. They believed that the promises of inheritance made to Abraham would not be given to those who were not circumcised Torah keepers. So Paul says in Galatians 3:17 that the Sinai Covenant (the Law) cannot make the promises of the Abrahamic Covenant null and void (a law cannot make void a promise). He goes on to show that the promises will not only be realized by the Jews, but also by the Gentiles who became Abraham’s seed by faith.
Later, in chapter 5, Paul addresses the heart of the issue; that if a believer gets circumcised, as per Torah, in order to be justified, he is fallen from grace. Why? Because he is seeking justification by works rather than by faith in Messiah Yeshua.

Thank you, that makes sense. Thanks for your help with this is has been perplexing me

danny ski · Jan 30, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
O

what commands were those?

There was no law, so those were what God asked if Abraham. However just because Abraham was ALSO obedient, takes nothing away from the fact that Abraham had righteousness IMPUTED to him, because of his faith.

Because of his great faith, Abraham is the father of all New Covenant believers Because we are the nations that are of Abrahams seed.

What commands? Those that he was given, those which he kept as it is written in the Torah. The essence of the story of Abraham is obedience. As is the essence the whole Torah. We call Abraham righteous because he kept the commandments, decrees and instructions. To say that Abraham was righteous because he had trust/faith in Gd is an incomplete and superficial reading of the Scripture.

Elihoenai · Jan 30, 2017

This is a Secret among the Deaf, Blind and Lame!

Abraham Circumcised Ishmael and Issac!

John 8:38-39 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

38 I -- that which I have seen with my Father do speak, and ye, therefore, that which ye have seen with your father -- ye do.'

39 They answered and said to him, `Our father is Abraham;' Jesus saith to them, `If children of Abraham ye were, the works of Abraham ye were doing;

2 Corinthians 4:3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 and if also our good news is vailed, in those perishing it is vailed,

Ancient Egyptian Circumcision

gadar perets · Jan 30, 2017

danny ski said:
What commands? Those that he was given, those which he kept as it is written in the Torah. The essence of the story of Abraham is obedience. As is the essence the whole Torah. We call Abraham righteous because he kept the commandments, decrees and instructions. To say that Abraham was righteous because he had trust/faith in Gd is an incomplete and superficial reading of the Scripture.

Abraham was declared righteous because he had faith in the promise of the Almighty coming to pass, that is, the promise that his descendants would be numerous (Genesis 15:5-6). Prior to that and after that, he walked in righteousness by obeying the Almighty's commandments by that same faith. Faith without works is incomplete and works without faith is incomplete and unprofitable. The Almighty requires both to be declared righteous.

ToBeLoved · Jan 30, 2017

danny ski said:
What commands? Those that he was given, those which he kept as it is written in the Torah. The essence of the story of Abraham is obedience. As is the essence the whole Torah. We call Abraham righteous because he kept the commandments, decrees and instructions. To say that Abraham was righteous because he had trust/faith in Gd is an incomplete and superficial reading of the Scripture.

Torah was written after Abraham. Moses existed after Abraham.

Interesting that you are tying to find and connect Abraham to Torah on this one.

That still does not change that Abraham was imputed righteousness that had nothing to do with the Torah. Seems your trying to connect them in lieu of Galatians is rather a thin attempt as it is all laid out in this book. And Torah has no part in what Abrahams promise is about.

ToBeLoved · Jan 30, 2017

Elihoenai said:
This is a Secret among the Deaf, Blind and Lame!

Abraham Circumcised Ishmael and Issac!

John 8:38-39 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

38 I -- that which I have seen with my Father do speak, and ye, therefore, that which ye have seen with your father -- ye do.'

39 They answered and said to him, `Our father is Abraham;' Jesus saith to them, `If children of Abraham ye were, the works of Abraham ye were doing;

2 Corinthians 4:3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 and if also our good news is vailed, in those perishing it is vailed,

Ancient Egyptian Circumcision

All of Christ's Children who are obedient Christ does the good works through so I'm not sure there is a valid point here specific to Abraham himself.

God works through those who are His willing servants. Abraham was willing. Faith is the key here.

BukiRob · Jan 30, 2017

mark kennedy said:
The Holy Spirit sends Ananias to Saul because he is God's “Holy vessel to bear my name to the Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15), shortly thereafter Barnabas introduces Saul to the Apostles (Acts 9:22). Chronologies are sometimes 'speculative' and 'approximate' but 'can be charted'. From this chart Paul converted around '35 AD' and by '41 AD' Paul and Barnabas are driven to Antioch of Syria by persecution. In the 'spring of 48 AD', Paul and Barnabas undertake the first missionary journey (Acts 13:1-14:28). They report back to Antioch in the autumn of, '49 AD the fourteenth year after Paul's experience on the road to Damascus'. The second missionary journey would commence in the 'spring of 50 AD'. At this pivotal point in the history of the early church the means of salvation is recognized to be justification by grace through faith.

The Pharisees rise up at the Jerusalem Council to insist that Gentiles must be circumcised in order to full fill the Mosaic Law. Peter rises up and defends the salvation as being by grace through faith and says that the Mosaic Law is 'putting a yoke, on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear' (Acts 15:9,10). Paul calls them simply 'some false brothers' in Gal. 2:4. We know the argument of the Pharisees was simply, "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." (Acts 15:1). The answer to the unbearable yoke of Mosaic Law was justification by grace through faith. We are used to thinking of that as Pauline or Protestant Theology but here it is evident in the Apostolic doctrine. Peter preached, “To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).

Digging into Galatians would help to get to the root doctrines of it but Acts chapters 10-15 contains the historical context.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Hi Mark,

I see you cited Acts 15:1 IMO the key to understanding this chapter is found in understanding what the men from Judea are saying.

Verse 1 is an IF, THEN statement.... or UNLESS you do this, You cant do that...

So what are they saying? 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

So if we reduce this sentence to its most basic component what they are saying is Unless you are circumcised you can not be saved.

So, Acts 15 is about 1 thing AND ONLY 1 THING... WHO CAN BE SAVED.

Its important to remember that we are dealing with JEWS. Not Goy. How they handled disputes was based strictly on the Mosaic model of resolving disputes, which is exactly what we witness take place in chapter 15.

If ANY Goy were to become circumcised to the rest of the world, he had become a Jew. What the men from Judea are saying is ONLY THE JEW can be saved!

We see this line of thinking being rejected by the testimony of Peter, Paul and Barnabas in how the gentiles were being saved.

You mention Peter and the Yoke around their neck... IMO this is a reference to the Oral tradition that Pharisee's had laid upon the people above and beyond what the Torah required.

This MUST be so because we have the testimony of Moche when he declares that observance is "NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you"
Indeed Paul teaches that the Torah is HOLY, Righteous and good....

mark kennedy · Jan 30, 2017

BukiRob said:
Hi Mark,

I see you cited Acts 15:1 IMO the key to understanding this chapter is found in understanding what the men from Judea are saying.

Verse 1 is an IF, THEN statement.... or UNLESS you do this, You cant do that...

So what are they saying? 1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."

So if we reduce this sentence to its most basic component what they are saying is Unless you are circumcised you can not be saved.

So, Acts 15 is about 1 thing AND ONLY 1 THING... WHO CAN BE SAVED.

Its important to remember that we are dealing with JEWS. Not Goy. How they handled disputes was based strictly on the Mosaic model of resolving disputes, which is exactly what we witness take place in chapter 15.

If ANY Goy were to become circumcised to the rest of the world, he had become a Jew. What the men from Judea are saying is ONLY THE JEW can be saved!

We see this line of thinking being rejected by the testimony of Peter, Paul and Barnabas in how the gentiles were being saved.

You mention Peter and the Yoke around their neck... IMO this is a reference to the Oral tradition that Pharisee's had laid upon the people above and beyond what the Torah required.

This MUST be so because we have the testimony of Moche when he declares that observance is "NOT TOO DIFFICULT for you"
Indeed Paul teaches that the Torah is HOLY, Righteous and good....

The complaint of the Pharisees was pretty clear:

“It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

Circumcision was just the beginning, all the Law of Moses was to follow. The two groups that troubled the early church the most were the Judaizers and the Gnostics summed up as legalism and licentiousness (grace is a license to sin). Immorality would be a pretty serious issue in places like Corinth and Thyatira, Jude and Peter in 2 Peter both deal with these kind of issues early after the inclusion of the Gentiles. The first problem they encountered though was Judaizers putting them under the yoke of the Mosaic Law.

BukiRob · Jan 30, 2017

mark kennedy said:
The complaint of the Pharisees was pretty clear:

“It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts 15:5)

Circumcision was just the beginning, all the Law of Moses was to follow. The two groups that troubled the early church the most were the Judaizers and the Gnostics summed up as legalism and licentiousness (grace is a license to sin). Immorality would be a pretty serious issue in places like Corinth and Thyatira, Jude and Peter in 2 Peter both deal with these kind of issues early after the inclusion of the Gentiles. The first problem they encountered though was Judaizers putting them under the yoke of the Mosaic Law.

James himself agreed that the Gentiles were to observe the Torah
21 For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since [k]he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

The phrase For Moses... those who preach him is the custom that on every Sabbath the Torah is read.

The Yoke is NOT the Torah.

For your assertion to be true Moses would have been lying when he said 11“For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12“It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 13“Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?’ 14“But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it.

The Yoke Peter speaks of is the Oral Traditions that had ADDED to the requirements of Torah, because the Torah and Yeshua himself said that "whatever the Pharisees tell you to do, you shall then do"

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