Understanding double predestination

Hammster said:

This isn’t the debate section.

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Was there something wrong with what I posted, what is the difference that you are pointing out? I do no pretend to understand all the rules here.

disciple Clint said:

Was there something wrong with what I posted, what is the difference that you are pointing out? I do no pretend to understand all the rules here.

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You seem to be debating. From the SoP

DarylFawcett said:

House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here (Community Rules). In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic.

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Hammster said:

You seem to be debating. From the SoP

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OK thanks, I see your point, my error

"Double predestination" is a misnomer.

TedT said:

We chose our eternal FATES by our free will then GOD predestined our LIVES to conform to that choice.

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Those who were predestine to election were elect from before the foundation of the world. (Ephesians 1:4) So thus, no one by their own actions have caused their own election. Predestination or "foreknowledge" does not mean that God "saw down the corridors of time who'd choose Him". Man does not elect himself.

"The wages of sin is death". Sin is what humans choose based on a will that actually isn't "free" because it's subject to the fall and the inevitable outcome of the fall is sin. Now humans do retain an independent volition to decide what actions they will take. Thus the determination of what wage they will earn because of their sin. But that independent volition is not "free will" because it does not negate the fallen nature.

So because the natural outcome of the fallen nature is to sin; God does not have to predestine anyone to hell. But He does have to predestine those He redeems to redemption because their "default destination" is condemnation.

Thus "double predestination" is a misnomer.

And because election occurred before the foundations of the world; it has to be unconditional. And it is unconditional because the "default destination" of all of us is condemnation. Condemnation is rightfully earned because God is holy and sin can not stand in His presence. This is why atonement is necessary.

Now God's nature is to demonstrate mercy; which He didn't have to because He did not make any of us sin. We did that all on our own.

Now, how did the fall happen is another issue. The question that entails is where did the propensity for the fall (or "evil") actually come from? If God is not responsible for sin; how did the fall happen? (I don't think I've ever actually heard a theologian answer that question.)

disciple Clint said:

I think that you are going to find a bunch of experts that agree with that expert, can they all be wrong? maybe?

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Or they can come to incomplete conclusions based on information that has not been reveled to them.

I have a theory based on one of the laws of physics. "To every action is an equal and opposite reaction." God's action was to create a temporal universe. God knew (because He possesses the knowledge of good and evil) that once He set that temporal creation into motion; along with the action of creating would come the opposite reaction of His intention. And because God is holy, righteous and just; the express opposite of His action became manifest in this material world as corruption.

The first entity that "reaction" (evil) infiltrated was Lucifer. Satan fell before Adam did. But the manifestation of Satan's fall was not felt in the material world until Adam transgressed. And both Lucifer and Adam started out with the ability to make the choice to transgress, not encumbered by a fallen nature. And thus "probationally speaking" they had "free will".

Ultimately though the only entity who truly had Free Will: (not "free will" because remember Adam was created in God's image; he was not "God incarnate") was Christ. And Jesus had "Free Will" and not just "free will" as a man, because of the Divine nature.

Now because Lucifer and Adam were created as temporal entities who did not bear the nature of God; the "knowledge of evil" is only manifest in the material world because God created a world that was not immortal, eternal, omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent. Thus how atonement brings about the end to sin, and the potential to corruption once this cosmos is recreated incorruptible.

The recreated cosmos will go on for eternity of necessity because the 2nd person of the Godhead became part of the material world. Yet the recreated cosmos still will not be God. God remains a separate entity from His creation. The reason that is, is because the creation started out as a temporal thing; where God did not. Besides being merciful, God is also a practical entity. He saw no need to create a cosmos that He could not or would not redeem.

So all who are not condemned for their sin are elect; including angels (1 Timothy 5:21) That goes for humans, angels and what ever other sentient and accountable life God may have created that we at this point don't know about. Which of our understanding of the material world, "sentient and accountable" are only humans. Obviously there is intelligent, yet not sentient and accountable life on this planet that is also part of the redemption plan.

As far as God possessing the knowledge of good and evil? Because of the nature of what God is; (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, immortal and eternal) He is not capable of being corrupted by that knowledge. If He was; we'd never be here having this conversation because He'd never be able to create anything. If God were wicked; he'd cease to actually meet the definition of God because his own corruptibility would cause his own self destruction.

RileyG said:

Can someone explain it to me in plain language? do most of the reformed and presbyterian churches accept it?

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So I don't know if this is plain enough language that the concepts I've presented make sense to you; but this is the simplest explanation I can give on the subject.

Hammster said:

He doesn’t force anyone to sin.

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IF HE creates them inheriting Adam's sin HE sure does...

Skye1300 said:

God didn't choose all to go to hell, the fall of Adam in the garden put humanity into an automatic sinful fallen state destined to hell. So still it was man's choice or action that caused this.

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This seems to mean that their wills were NOT enslaved to the power of evil (WAS JESUS JUST BABBLING about that?) and was still free to choose sin or therefore able to choose salvation??? No grace needed, right?

disciple Clint said:

Lets see what the experts have to say:
Double Predestination
This is the view that God sovereignly and freely chose to predestine some to Heaven (the elect) and some to Hell (the reprobate). This predestination is not based on anything in the person, nor is it based on what the foreseen actions and/or beliefs of that person would have been.
Double Predestination

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The millions of pages of theo-babble written to refute this understanding by paying lip service to our free will as if it was not subjugated to HIS sovereignty, fail. This is a fair and clear rendition of the meaning of double predestination used by orthodoxy. Heterodox definitions differ, of course.

The Righterzpen said:

So thus, no one by their own actions have caused their own election.

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Thus speaketh orthodoxy but I disagree:

taken to
Controversial Christian Theology

The Righterzpen said:

Now, how did the fall happen is another issue. The question that entails is where did the propensity for the fall (or "evil") actually come from? If God is not responsible for sin; how did the fall happen? (I don't think I've ever actually heard a theologian answer that question.)

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Here's one answer:

ImCo:

The story of election and the fall:
1. GOD created everyone in HIS image at the same time before the creation of the physical universe. HE created us with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by our free will to put our faith in HIM as our GOD or reject HIM as a liar and a false god.

2. GOD then proclaimed to us HIS claims to be our creator GOD and called us to join HIM in a heavenly marriage by putting our faith in HIM as our GOD. HE proclaimed the gospel of salvation to us about the natural and legal consequences of sin, specifically the sin of rejecting HIM as GOD or HIS purpose for us, and that salvation from sin was found only in the Son: Col 1:23 in which under heaven can refer to all of creation.

3. As an expression of HIS love and to encourage us to accept HIS purpose for us to be HIS bride, HE promised that if we put our faith in HIM, HE would elect us, ie, choose us to be HIS bride and also would predestine us to fulfill our faith even if we should ever sin and lose our faith. Those who rejected HIM as their GOD and put their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god would be passed over for election, not chosen to be HIS bride and not predestined to fulfill HIS purpose for them if they should sin this unforgivable sin as eternally unfit to ever fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, but liable to judgement.

The story of the fall, judgement and sanctification:
4. So everyone created in HIS name chose: either to committing their faith to HIM, becoming elect, or against HIM, becoming eternally evil and condemned on the spot.

5. The next order of business in accord with HIS great hatred to evil was to call all HIS elect to come out from among the reprobate non-elect so they could be judged. But some elect would not. They rebelled against damnation as being too unloving for a GOD who was love, for being too impulsive without giving the non-elect time to repent etc and anyway, they loved some of those to be damned and idolized them above GOD. Thus the elect were split into two, those who never sinned and those who became enslaved to evil but still under HIS promise of salvation.

6. To facilitate HIS plans for the redemption of the sinful elect HE next created the physical universe which all the sons of GOD saw and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? This explains the meaning of Rom 1:20 that none have an excuse: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Consider: in which is HIS divinity and power more clearly seen, a study of what was made or watching HIM actually make the whole universe before your eyes!!! Which renders you totally without excuse ? especially when the study of nature has most of the pagan world believe they themselves are godly and they know nothing of YHWH until they are taught.

The sins of the elect made them liable to judgement with the reprobate so HE postponed the judgement upon the Satanic and made the sinful elect live together with the Satanic here on earth until they could have their eyes opened to their need for a saviour and to the eternal nature of the evil of their non-elect loved ones. This bit is found in the two part story of the tares, Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [pointing to verses 36-39] So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?' [bring judgement upon them?]
29 ‘NO,’ he said, [postpone the judgment because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest....which states that the reason Satan and his demonic angels were NOT judged on the spot is because of the sinfulness of some of HIS elect!

This parable also reinforces the fact that we are sent here as sinners and not created here as sinners in verses: 36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” EXPLAIN cannot mean tell us another hyperbolic metaphor so His answer is the plain truth no matter how weird it sounds and explains our transition from the spirit world, Sheol, to the world of mankind.
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. It might seem strange that the devil can move people around but for sure it does not say he can create them so to sow cannot mean to create for either the Son of Man or the devil.

7. Thus the time of elect here on earth is a time of GOD's grace through a growing faith and repentance unto redemption and sanctification to fulfill HIS predestination of them as elect to be HIS heavenly bride in accord with their free will faith before they chose to sin and lost it all. When the last sinful elect person repents fully and becomes fully sanctified, ie, heaven ready then, only then, that great and terrible day of our LORD will proceed.

TedT said:

IF HE creates them inheriting Adam's sin HE sure does...

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No, He doesn’t.

TedT said:

Here's one answer:

ImCo:

The story of election and the fall:
1. GOD created everyone in HIS image at the same time before the creation of the physical universe. HE created us with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose by our free will to put our faith in HIM as our GOD or reject HIM as a liar and a false god.

2. GOD then proclaimed to us HIS claims to be our creator GOD and called us to join HIM in a heavenly marriage by putting our faith in HIM as our GOD. HE proclaimed the gospel of salvation to us about the natural and legal consequences of sin, specifically the sin of rejecting HIM as GOD or HIS purpose for us, and that salvation from sin was found only in the Son: Col 1:23 in which under heaven can refer to all of creation.

3. As an expression of HIS love and to encourage us to accept HIS purpose for us to be HIS bride, HE promised that if we put our faith in HIM, HE would elect us, ie, choose us to be HIS bride and also would predestine us to fulfill our faith even if we should ever sin and lose our faith. Those who rejected HIM as their GOD and put their faith in HIM being a liar and a false god would be passed over for election, not chosen to be HIS bride and not predestined to fulfill HIS purpose for them if they should sin this unforgivable sin as eternally unfit to ever fulfill HIS purpose for their creation, but liable to judgement.

The story of the fall, judgement and sanctification:
4. So everyone created in HIS name chose: either to committing their faith to HIM, becoming elect, or against HIM, becoming eternally evil and condemned on the spot.

5. The next order of business in accord with HIS great hatred to evil was to call all HIS elect to come out from among the reprobate non-elect so they could be judged. But some elect would not. They rebelled against damnation as being too unloving for a GOD who was love, for being too impulsive without giving the non-elect time to repent etc and anyway, they loved some of those to be damned and idolized them above GOD. Thus the elect were split into two, those who never sinned and those who became enslaved to evil but still under HIS promise of salvation.

6. To facilitate HIS plans for the redemption of the sinful elect HE next created the physical universe which all the sons of GOD saw and sang HIS praise, Job 38:7...when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? This explains the meaning of Rom 1:20 that none have an excuse: For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Consider: in which is HIS divinity and power more clearly seen, a study of what was made or watching HIM actually make the whole universe before your eyes!!! Which renders you totally without excuse ? especially when the study of nature has most of the pagan world believe they themselves are godly and they know nothing of YHWH until they are taught.

The sins of the elect made them liable to judgement with the reprobate so HE postponed the judgement upon the Satanic and made the sinful elect live together with the Satanic here on earth until they could have their eyes opened to their need for a saviour and to the eternal nature of the evil of their non-elect loved ones. This bit is found in the two part story of the tares, Matt 13:27 The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’ 28 ‘An enemy did this,’ he replied. [pointing to verses 36-39] So the servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?' [bring judgement upon them?]
29 ‘NO,’ he said, [postpone the judgment because...] ‘if you pull the weeds now, you might uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest....which states that the reason Satan and his demonic angels were NOT judged on the spot is because of the sinfulness of some of HIS elect!

This parable also reinforces the fact that we are sent here as sinners and not created here as sinners in verses: 36 Then Jesus dismissed the crowds and went into the house. His disciples came to Him and said, “EXPLAIN to us the parable of the weeds in the field.” EXPLAIN cannot mean tell us another hyperbolic metaphor so His answer is the plain truth no matter how weird it sounds and explains our transition from the spirit world, Sheol, to the world of mankind.
37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. It might seem strange that the devil can move people around but for sure it does not say he can create them so to sow cannot mean to create for either the Son of Man or the devil.

7. Thus the time of elect here on earth is a time of GOD's grace through a growing faith and repentance unto redemption and sanctification to fulfill HIS predestination of them as elect to be HIS heavenly bride in accord with their free will faith before they chose to sin and lost it all. When the last sinful elect person repents fully and becomes fully sanctified, ie, heaven ready then, only then, that great and terrible day of our LORD will proceed.

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This is just a rehash of the same error you repeated in the Controversial Christian Theology post; of which I will just repeat the answer I gave you there so other people can read it here:

Pre-conception existence theology:

Lots of problems with this theory but:
Problem most obvious is that all humanity are sinners. There is no special class of "righteous of God" as opposed to "seed of Satan". "Seed of Satan" doctrine came out of the Talmud. Jews who follow the Talmud believe they are all the descendants of Adam and all the gentiles are the descendants of Satan. Thus all the gentiles were put on earth to "serve Jews" and are sub human.

This doctrine is just another form of racism basically.

All humanity are created in the image of the One and Only God and are descendants of Adam.

Satan does not have carbon based capacity and angels can not reproduce. God is the author of all life. He alone controls the "breath of life". Satan has no control over that. He can not create life. Matter of fact, the entire reproductive capacity of the planet can not create life unless God grants the breath of life for an organism to be "conceived".

Job 38:7 That verse means the angelic host was created before humanity was. That's born out in other parts of Scripture. Apparently angels were created on the first day. Which makes sense because Lucifer was the "covering cherub". What was he covering? He was covering the "darkness" that was "on the face of the deep". And actually, when "the Spirit of God moved upon the waters"; the action of the Spirit of God entering into the "without form and void" cosmos to create life, was the creation of water. Water is the foundational element of life. Thus the material component of "carbon based life" is necessary to call it "life". The material aspect of life defines life, because the breath of life makes life alive.

That term "sons of God" (referencing angels) is used in other parts of Scripture. The Nephilim passage references "sons of God" (rather god - meaning Satan post fall) and "daughters of men". But since demons do not have the capacity to create life; the surrogate needed for conception to happen was a human father. Which also God had to grant the breath of life in order for the offspring to "come to life".

Both Jesus and John the Baptist called certain pharisees "...of your father the devil..."; yet clearly they were still carbon based biological men.

And clearly we know from Genesis 2:7 that souls did not exist prior to the creation of the body because God breathed into Adam's nostrils and "he became a living soul". The creation of life comes from the imparting of the breath of life, and the imparting of the breath of life makes one "a living soul".

So thus all other humans conceived, become a living soul at the granting of the breath of life from God. So in that context, technically everything that's a life form has a "soul". Yet an animal or plant "soul" is not the same as a human soul.

Now you are taking Romans 1:18-20 out of context. The reason that they are "without excuse" is because they have the witness of creation. The passage itself says that. And since they can not exist without the breath of life, the "witness of creation" was not that they witnessed it being created. That's impossible because the cosmos itself existed before life was introduced into it.

That phrase "without excuse" though has a "flip side" to it. To those who have been atoned for, who never received the written testimony of Scripture they "have not been left without a witness". Creation is that witness; as well as being created in the image of God, they also have a conscience. This is why "those who knew not the law, yet did the things written in the law are a law unto themselves".

Colossians 1:23 ties into Revelation 13:8. Jesus was the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world". Now how the atonement is accomplished both within and without created time; we have a hard time wrapping our heads around because we are not omniscient. God as an eternal entity, obviously bears the capacity to inject Himself into any point in history.

Matthew 13:36-39 Here's a perfect example of why we are told to compare Scripture with Scripture because when you don't; you fall of the rails into silly heresies.

Luke 8 gives another parable of "seed". It defines "the seed" as the word of God. Go back to Matthew 13 a minute; the "seed" are the sons of the Kingdom. And in that passage; Jesus states that he has "sown" them. How did he do that? "Through the proclamation of the redemption plan."

In the context of the entire Bible, the "seed" is the spoken word because Jesus is the "material world" word ("seed"). He is a carbon based life form, of the "seed of Eve". And this is why God "created" the first Adam and "incarnated" the last Adam.

The first command given to all life after the creation of Eve was to "be fruitful and multiply". That was necessary because of the fall. So thus on account of the necessity for all "living souls" to have a component of their existence that involved a material body; life was created with the capacity to reproduce.

Now what happens to the "seed" that is Christ? He goes "into the ground", because the last enemy to be overcome was death. Jesus did not biologically reproduce; so the biological component of his existence remained in him thus his body is the seed that goes into the ground, just like his body is the "temple" that is destroyed.

So how does Christ "sow" the "sons of the kingdom"? In the context of "sowing" being "seed" that "is fruitful and multiplies" to create life; the sons of the kingdom are sown by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The book of Daniel actually calls Pentecost "the consummation". Jesus consummated His relationship to the believer through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. If he'd sowed his seed in the flesh; that would not have accomplished redemption. All of Jesus's material offspring would have also been "God incarnate" which would have been pointless because God does not have to prove to Himself that He can obey His own law.

Which contrast this now to Jeremiah 1:5; "before I formed you in the belly, I knew you? Adam knew his wife and she conceived a son... Contrast this to "be gone from me you workers of iniquity; I never knew you." God who's Holy Spirit cleaves to a human entity, as a result of salvation; obviously can know that human entity outside of time, in eternity before time ever began. Thus "Jesus the lamb slain from the foundation of the world". He doesn't "know" those He knows because He created them before the foundation of the world. He knows them because He's omnipresent!

Psalm 9:17 - Again you've neglected context. Verse 16; "the wicked is snared in the work of his own hands". What are the "works of his own hands"? What is he trying to escape that 'the works of his own hands" ensnare him. The answer is the context of verse 17. He's "turned back to hell" by being snared in the works of his own hands; which he is devising and scheming and "working' to try and escape hell.

Again; man is not the author of his own election.

RileyG said:

Can someone explain it to me in plain language? do most of the reformed and presbyterian churches accept it?

thanks

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Whereas God is effectually active in the salvation of the elect, He leaves the rest in their own sin. Double predestination is the necessary consequence of God's predestination of the elect. Many misunderstand and think that God is as active in the damning of the reprobate as He is in the saving the elect, but this is not true. He simply allows the reprobate to wander in their sin (which is connected to being not elected and effectually saved by God's special operation). That's pretty much what it teaches.

Jonaitis said:

Many misunderstand and think that God is as active in the damning of the reprobate as He is in the saving the elect, but this is not true.

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HE is pretty active in passing them over for salvation IF there was no reason for them NOT TO BE SAVED...

HE loves them.
HE does not desire any to die but all to repent.
HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked...
YET HE also contradicts HIMself and finds it in HIMself (and only in HIMself) to pass some over for salvation when HE could choose to elect everyone because they are actually all totally equal in sinfulness but HE only elects some to salvation for no reason found in them...

...that's quite an action.

TedT said:

HE is pretty active in passing them over for salvation IF there was no reason for them NOT TO BE SAVED...

HE loves them.
HE does not desire any to die but all to repent.
HE takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked...
YET HE also contradicts HIMself and finds it in HIMself (and only in HIMself) to pass some over for salvation when HE could choose to elect everyone because they are actually all totally equal in sinfulness but HE only elects some to salvation for no reason found in them...

...that's quite an action.

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You're now battling with your own argument, because the reality is that God will not save everyone. So regardless if you believe in predestination, your statement still suggests God is active in allowing the reprobate to be damned by choice.

Jonaitis said:

your statement still suggests God is active in allowing the reprobate to be damned by choice.

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???

Whose choice? When I quote someone's misstatement iIdo not intend it to become mine...

Calvinist doctrine makes GOD the sole actor in their being passed over for election, that is, for damnation.

I claim that the Satanic reprobate have only themselves to blame for their being passed over for election by sinning the unforgivable sin when they rebuked HIM as a liar and therefore a false god driven by a psychotic megalomania before the foundation of the world.