Understanding Arminians (from a former arminian)

NorrinRadd · Feb 15, 2013

Shulamite said:
In all honesty, I totally understand an Arminian's objection to Calvinism.

I'm skeptical of this claim. May I ask what Arminian authors you've read? Have you read anything by Tom Oden, Robert Picirilli, Roger E. Olson, or F. Leroy Forlines?

If you had, I don't think you would find the same focus on "free will" that you evince in your OP. Certainly that would show up, but the focus would be on God's love, God's righteousness, God's gift in Christ, and on various Scriptures whose most obvious meaning is incompatible with Calvinism.

Keachian · Feb 15, 2013

NorrinRadd said:
various Scriptures whose most obvious meaning is incompatible with Calvinism.

please share

Skala · Feb 15, 2013

netzarim said:
But the verse does not say that.

It says

Statement of Fact: 1. God so loved all of the world,
Result: 2. That, as a result, He offered His only begotten Son to all the world,
YHWH's Offer: 3. That whomsoever from all the world should choose to be faithful in His Son,
Consequence of rejection or acceptance: 4. Should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is not correct. Your #3 in the verse is a hina clause which denotes purpose.

The phrase starting with the word "that" means that God did everything up to this point in the verse, in order to accomplish the following..

In this, case, in order to accomplish the saving of "pas ho pisteuwn", or "everyone believing" or "the believing ones" or "all who believe".

Thus, the purpose of God sending the Son was to emphatically save a particular group (believers) not to attempt to save every individual if only they will cooperate. There was no potentiality in God's sending the Son, but actuality, to save a particular people.

Again, you insist that "kosmos" means "every single individual in the human race", why do you insist that? Because of some grammatical or contextual reason? You have not demonstrated why you are insisting such a thing. In light of the hina clause, it cannot be that, which is probably why the Greek experts don't agree with your understanding.

But again, they are the experts, not me

pea brain · Feb 15, 2013

Skala said:
The Bible teaches that God chastises (disciplines) those he loves.

Does he do this to all equally? Absolutely not. He only disciplines his children who are indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

pea brain · Feb 15, 2013

netzarim said:
Calvinism reduces man to a utter slave, in a misguided attempt at elevating YHWH's power & sovereignty.

Paul taught that man is a slave to sin.

pea brain · Feb 15, 2013

Skala said:
Again, you insist that "kosmos" means "every single individual in the human race", why do you insist that? Because of some grammatical or contextual reason?

Paul said that the gospel had come into "all the world" and that it had been preached to "every creature under heaven" (Colossians 1:6, 23). No one takes the expressions "all the world" or "every creature" to mean that every human being had heard the gospel.

Keachian · Feb 15, 2013

netzarim said:
Agreed. Whether or not Elohim or man chooses their own status is up for debate!

Going back to the original claim that it is Calvinism that makes men slaves, tell me who said "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin." ?

ananda · Feb 17, 2013

Skala said:
This is not correct. Your #3 in the verse is a hina clause which denotes purpose. The phrase starting with the word "that" means that God did everything up to this point in the verse, in order to accomplish the following.. In this, case, in order to accomplish the saving of "pas ho pisteuwn", or "everyone believing" or "the believing ones" or "all who believe". Thus, the purpose of God sending the Son was to emphatically save a particular group (believers) not to attempt to save every individual if only they will cooperate. There was no potentiality in God's sending the Son, but actuality, to save a particular people.

I agree, there is no potentiality. Hina combined with the subjunctives in the latter part of the verse denotes purpose. YHWH's definite purpose is to save all those who are faithful in His Son. The group who is absolutely saved are those who have chosen to remain faithful in Him - not those whom He prepurposed to save.

Again, you insist that "kosmos" means "every single individual in the human race", why do you insist that?

YHWH's gift of salvation was offered to every man and woman. YHWH saves all who remain faithful in His Son, this is attested to in the verse.

ananda · Feb 17, 2013

pea brain said:
Paul taught that man is a slave to sin.

I do not follow Paul, thank you though

ananda · Feb 17, 2013

progmonk said:
Going back to the original claim that it is Calvinism that makes men slaves, tell me who said "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin." ?

I don't know who said that, but I know that Messiah said: "Everyone who keeps-on-sinning keeps-on-being the servant("one who gives himself up to the will of another") of sin" (Jn 8:34).

JackSparrow · Feb 18, 2013

Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Did God predestine this slavery before the foundation of the world. We all now that every has GONeE astray.
The debate is was he created that way.

Shulamite · Feb 18, 2013

NorrinRadd said:
Is it not then the case that those of us who believe in Arminian soteriology ALSO do not really "choose" to do so? And since that is the case, there was really no point to your starting this futile discussion. We all believe what we believe, and are unable to choose otherwise.

I know my answer is not what you will want to hear, but since you asked...
I believe Christ gave (measured) a portion of faith to each. What we
"See" and "understand" with the eyes of our hearts is given to us by
Jesus. So, I believe that it was Jesus' choice to reveal to me His plan
Of salvation and that He predestined and chose His own, I did not choose
Him. I believe, by His grace, that Calvinism reflects what He has shown
Me. If a believer believes arminian theology, then God has not chosen to show
them (yet) the revelation of Predestination and the Elect.
That is what they receive of Him right now until He chooses to show
Them something different. I don't expect you'll like my answer, however
That is how I see it. Each believer has revelation of Jesus based on what
He chooses to reveal to the individual.

Jack Terrence · Feb 18, 2013

netzarim said:
I do not follow Paul, thank you though

Jesus also taught that men are slaves to sin.

"He that commits sin is the slave of sin. But if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

Keachian · Feb 18, 2013

netzarim said:
I don't know who said that, but I know that Messiah said: "Everyone who keeps-on-sinning keeps-on-being the servant("one who gives himself up to the will of another") of sin" (Jn 8:34).

Yes that is the verse I was referring to, I don't agree with your translation, I do think that the proper rendering is slave

NorrinRadd · Feb 19, 2013

progmonk said:
please share

The ones that come most automatically to mind are John 1:12-13 and John 3:3-8, about being born of God, and John 3:16, showing the scope of the Atonement.

ananda · Feb 19, 2013

progmonk said:
Yes that is the verse I was referring to, I don't agree with your translation, I do think that the proper rendering is slave

I chose "servant" because the δοῦλος-bondslave is one who voluntarily gives up his own will to accomplish the will of his master (cf Ex 21:5-6).

"Slave", to me, is one who is involuntarily forced to do the will of his master.

ananda · Feb 19, 2013

The Boxer said:
Jesus also taught that men are slaves to sin. "He that commits sin is the slave of sin. But if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

My proposed alternate translation:

"Everyone who keeps-on-sinning keeps-on-being the servant("one who gives himself up to the will of another") of sin ... If the Son therefore shall be-making you free, you will be free indeed."

As I wrote to progmonk above, this verse (to me) is actually saying that men who continue to sin have given themselves up voluntarily to their master - sin. This does not say that we are involuntarily captured by sin.

cygnusx1 · Feb 22, 2013

JackSparrow said:
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

Did God predestine this slavery before the foundation of the world. We all now that every has GONeE astray.
The debate is was he created that way.

Either you accept God created every sinner or you don't , I see sinners everywhere and I don't guess who created them , I know

Jack Terrence · Feb 22, 2013

netzarim said:
My proposed alternate translation:

"Everyone who keeps-on-sinning keeps-on-being the servant("one who gives himself up to the will of another") of sin ... If the Son therefore shall be-making you free, you will be free indeed."

As I wrote to progmonk above, this verse (to me) is actually saying that men who continue to sin have given themselves up voluntarily to their master - sin. This does not say that we are involuntarily captured by sin.

But note what Jesus says next,

"The slave abides not in the house forever. If the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed."

Jesus illustrated the slavery to sin principle from the slavery culture. A slave did not "voluntarily" become a slave. Therefore, your proposed translation is special pleading and is wrong.

SeraphimsCherub · Feb 22, 2013

netzarim said:
If He preordained satan's & men's actions, then those actions originate from YHWH, and not from satan or man.

What you fail to see. Is that YHWH created the world through HIS SON YESHUAH BY HIS SPIRIT for a REDEMPTIVE PURPOSE.By which HE made a fall of HIS creation necessary,by REASON of those HE had already PLANNED to REDEEM IN YESHUA before the foundation of the world. And without "FAITH" it is impossible to please HIM. Adam didn't "need" FAITH of,or in GOD before his fall. So the only creation which would ever give GOD any pleasure is one that would be LEAD BY HIM TO HAVE FAITH IN HIM....TO BE BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH BY HIM,AND THEN BE RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD BY HIM INTO~&~UNTO THE ETERNAL EVERLASTING LIFE OF HIM,FROM HIM,BY HIM,IN HIM, THROUGH HIM, WITH HIM...A NEW CREATION IN CHRIST JESUS...AMEN

If all of creation is a REVALATION of the GOD YAHOSHUAH\JESUS CHRIST...WHO IS HIM VERY SELF A REDEEMER...AND SINCE:
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
And since:

Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, (((I am the resurrection, and the life))): he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Revealed In Nature: A seed must be buried into the ground,and it's outer shell die,before it RESURRECTS triumphantly from out of the ground a whole new creation,with it's limbs spreading out praising the new life which it has received from the light of the sun= A physical manifestation,and representation of CHRIST\GOD\THE CREATOR. Same with us FROM THE LIGHT OF THE SON=SPIRITUAL

Joh 12:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

And since:

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Made it ASOLUTELY PERFECTLY NECESSARY that a CREATION BY HIM WOULD BE LEAD BY HIM TO REVEAL ALL THESE THINGS ABOUT HIM,AND WHO HE IS,AND WHAT HE LOVES DOING...AMEN

Blessings...
SC

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