Under the law??

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

I've recently read a blogger's opinion about δικαιόω in Paul's writings, and he argued that rather than "declare [to be] right" (which is the classical meaning) it actually takes on a much more active feature. Meaning, instead of just making a declaration, Paul actually pictures God altering the state of the unjust and imputing justice into their actions. Thus, "declare right" should actually be "make right."

That seems to make a lot of sense in light of some of Paul's statements, and it might be apt in the verses quoted above. Paul was envisioning those who want to have righteous imputed to them based on the commandments of the Torah. He wasn't arguing anything about "being saved" by the Torah. He was arguing that it's impossible to be made righteous by performing deeds commanded in the Torah. That's pretty powerful stuff.

pat34lee · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
These are people who declare that they are "righteous" based on deeds that they do. Paul said that anyone who even attempts to build up personal righteousness by deeds of the law (which is exemplified in circumcision, but which has other expressions) have fallen from grace and been severed from Christ. This is in line with what he declared in Colossians 2:11, where he stated that circumcision for a Christian is not physical but spiritual, in the cutting away of the old man, the "flesh," the "sinful nature."

I find it very strange that you would represent Paul as saying anything contrary to this.

If you are circumcised to try and increase your righteousness, of course you are lost. That is not why Abraham or any of the other fathers got circumcised. They did it strictly out of obedience to the word of YHWH. And that should be the only reason we do anything.

Yeshua told his disciples the type of attitude they should have toward obeying YHWH in Luke 17:10

10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
By the way, you will notice a difference here in who is quoting Paul at length and who is referring to their own opinions without presenting anything of substance. Paul would have been shocked that his writings have been twisted to demonstrate the opposite of what he actually taught and lived by.

How true. What is more interesting is that the three people here who have studied Greek all come to the same conclusion that Christian Church has on this matter and on Paul's theology in general, and the people who haven't keep telling us we are wrong. I really think some people's religion is forged not from study, but from personal opinion and emotion.

Regarding δικαιόω, have you read Kittel's book dealing with the whole gamut?

Does it sound also like your blogger was influenced by the NNP?

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

pat34lee said:
If you are circumcised to try and increase your righteousness, of course you are lost. That is not why Abraham or any of the other fathers got circumcised. They did it strictly out of obedience to the word of YHWH. And that should be the only reason we do anything.

Yeshua told his disciples the type of attitude they should have toward obeying YHWH in Luke 17:10

10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Still nothing of value to support you claim that Paul obeyed Torah and taught others to do the same. This is off-topic.

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

ContraMundum said:
How true. What is more interesting is that the three people here who have studied Greek all come to the same conclusion that Christian Church has on this matter and on Paul's theology in general, and the people who haven't keep telling us we are wrong. I really think some people's religion is forged not from study, but from personal opinion and emotion.

Indeed.

ContraMundum said:
Regarding δικαιόω, have you read Kittel's book dealing with the whole gamut?

When I was in college, there was a copy of Kittle in the library. I used it for papers on word studies, but that's been more than ten years ago - and I definitely don't have a copy of my own! I'd love to look it up and go through it, but I'm far far away from where I was back then. No access to such things today.

ContraMundum said:
Does it sound also like your blogger was influenced by the NNP?

What's NNP? New _ on Paul? I'd expect NPP - "New Perspective on Paul." Is that what you're talking about?

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2011

pat34lee said:
If you are circumcised to try and increase your righteousness, of course you are lost. That is not why Abraham or any of the other fathers got circumcised. They did it strictly out of obedience to the word of YHWH. And that should be the only reason we do anything.

Yeshua told his disciples the type of attitude they should have toward obeying YHWH in Luke 17:10
10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

I think you would be forcing an opinion onto the text of scripture if you tried to in any way or form state that Paul was not teaching against circumcision for Gentile Christians. He certainly was. Gentile Christians should not seek after circumcision for any religious reason whatsoever. We cannot forget that the term circumcision is also used to denote conversion to Judaism. The controversy in the early church regarding conversion to Judaism -which comes complete with its submission to the Mosiac Covenant (Gal 5:3) - as necessary to becoming a follower of Jesus was dealt with at the Jerusalem Council.

Circumcision for Abraham was a covenant sign between his descendants and God. It was never meant as covenant sign between all humanity and God. It is for a particular people. When one joined those people, one accepted the sign of their covenant and all the obligations that it entailed, including circumcision.

Gentile Christians do not become children of Abraham through the Mosaic Covenant, but through faith. The sign of baptism is the sign Christians are to receive (Rom 4-6)

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
Indeed.

When I was in college, there was a copy of Kittle in the library. I used it for papers on word studies, but that's been more than ten years ago - and I definitely don't have a copy of my own! I'd love to look it up and go through it, but I'm far far away from where I was back then. No access to such things today.

I have a copy somewhere- bought it second hand for a couple of bucks. A great study.

What's NNP? New _ on Paul? I'd expect NPP - "New Perspective on Paul." Is that what you're talking about?

Yep...I meant NPP.

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

ContraMundum said:
How true. What is more interesting is that the three people here who have studied Greek all come to the same conclusion that Christian Church has on this matter and on Paul's theology in general, and the people who haven't keep telling us we are wrong. I really think some people's religion is forged not from study, but from personal opinion and emotion.

To add one thing... It really confuses me how people read Paul and come to the exact opposite conclusions. I don't know if they are not reading it all together as a letter (as it was intended) and are just picking apart one verse at a time, each time adding some nuance that isn't there, or if they don't open his writings at all and simply rely on someone else to interpret them. I can't understand what's going on, because the things that they are claiming Paul supports are exactly (completely, absolutely, totally) the opposite of what he actually wrote. It's just shocking...

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

ContraMundum said:
I have a copy somewhere- bought it second hand for a couple of bucks. A great study.

Do you think you'd be able to scan just the pages of the entry for δικαιόω, or is it too long? I'd love to read up on that one entry, if I could beg anything of you. I'll look it up in Middle Liddell, which I have, but that won't cover the NT usage. Thanks!

ContraMundum said:
Yep...I meant NPP.

I didn't read enough of his blog to gather his opinions about Paul in general. I will say... that book The Genius of Paul just assisted me in my views of Paul. With each passing day, as I spend more time reviewing Paul's views, my appreciation for his perspectives increases – not that I agree with him, but I can see where he's coming from, and I'm not offended by his teachings. I don't know if he would like me, were we to ever meet (grin), but I think I would enjoy listening to what he had to say. I feel an odd connection to him.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
To add one thing... It really confuses me how people read Paul and come to the exact opposite conclusions. I don't know if they are not reading it all together as a letter (as it was intended) and are just picking apart one verse at a time, each time adding some nuance that isn't there, or if they don't open his writings at all and simply rely on someone else to interpret them. I can't understand what's going on, because the things that they are claiming Paul supports are exactly (completely, absolutely, totally) the opposite of what he actually wrote. It's just shocking...

Not to mention that there are teachers out there who do in fact make Paul to say "black" when he teaches "white". Case in point: the "One law" teachers who believe that Galatians actually teaches that circumcision is to be administered to followers of Jesus. We've had people on this forum come with doctrine like that, who try to use Greek. What follows is that when the Greek doesn't support their argument- they turn against the scriptures and make wild claims about Paul or whoever. IOW- they can't find what they want to believe in the Bible: so the Bible must be wrong.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
Do you think you'd be able to scan just the pages of the entry for δικαιόω, or is it too long? I'd love to read up on that one entry, if I could beg anything of you. I'll look it up in Middle Liddell, which I have, but that won't cover the NT usage. Thanks!

I will look for it, and scan it. I have an e-book in Hebrew I wanted to send your way anyway. No problems.

I didn't read enough of his blog to gather his opinions about Paul in general. I will say... that book The Genius of Paul just assisted me in my views of Paul. With each passing day, as I spend more time reviewing Paul's views, my appreciation for his perspectives increases not that I agree with him, but I can see where he's coming from, and I'm not offended by his teachings. I don't know if he would like me, were we to ever meet (grin), but I think I would enjoy listening to what he had to say. I feel an odd connection to him.

I like Paul too. I must admit that he has formed my theology and I have grown spiritually and more importantly morally from his contribution to the NT.

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

ContraMundum said:
Not to mention that there are teachers out there who do in fact make Paul to say "black" when he teaches "white". Case in point: the "One law" teachers who believe that Galatians actually teaches that circumcision is to be administered to followers of Jesus. We've had people on this forum come with doctrine like that, who try to use Greek. What follows is that when the Greek doesn't support their argument- they turn against the scriptures and make wild claims about Paul or whoever. IOW- they can't find what they want to believe in the Bible: so the Bible must be wrong.

I hear the term "One Law" tossed around, but I've never figured out what they're talking about. Paul said that those who are circumcised, he would have them go all the way and cut off their members! He was serious about Christians not undergoing circumcision out of religious motivations. I don't know how someone could equivocate about it.

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

ContraMundum said:
I will look for it, and scan it. I have an e-book in Hebrew I wanted to send your way anyway. No problems.

Do you need my e-mail address? What's the e-book about? Also, is it epub or another format? I've never had an epub in Hebrew!

I'm currently reading הכלב היהודי (The Jewish Dog) with my Hebrew bookclub. We meet biweekly on Monday mornings. Just so happens that we're meeting tomorrow and I haven't finished my reading yet. I'm also meeting my weekly Hebrew study group online today at 15:00 (Jerusalem time). We're reading a segment about Israeli state symbols that I put together. I'm the one who puts together the texts (which includes adding vowels to unpointed articles that I find online or in textbooks for quick reading), and then I send them out weekly and we prepare them separately and meet for reading and discussion.

I'm weighing whether or not to begin taking courses from the Open University here to complete a second BA (in Hebrew) in preparation for MA studies. It's long in coming, for sure.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
I hear the term "One Law" tossed around, but I've never figured out what they're talking about.

The One Law folks teach that there is One Law for all Jews and Gentiles: the 613 in the Torah. They teach that when Gentiles become Christians they need to live the Jewish lifestyle and follow all things in the Tanakh. Of course, they water it all down with weird twists of logic and scripture. I won't go into it- it's so bad it's not funny.

Paul said that those who are circumcised, he would have them go all the way and cut off their members! He was serious about Christians not undergoing circumcision out of religious motivations. I don't know how someone could equivocate about it.

You should check some of these nuts out then! If you want a good hearty laugh, read One Law teachers and their handling of the scriptures.

ContraMundum · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
Do you need my e-mail address? What's the e-book about? Also, is it epub or another format? I've never had an epub in Hebrew!

It's the book another thread spoke about by that Rabbi guy from Israel who believes in a re-trial of Jesus. It's his (very kabbalistic) understanding of the Messiah etc. Hard to read for me, but you will find it easy.

I'm currently reading הכלב היהודי (The Jewish Dog) with my Hebrew bookclub. We meet biweekly on Monday mornings. Just so happens that we're meeting tomorrow and I haven't finished my reading yet. I'm also meeting my weekly Hebrew study group online today at 15:00 (Jerusalem time). We're reading a segment about Israeli state symbols that I put together. I'm the one who puts together the texts (which includes adding vowels to unpointed articles that I find online or in textbooks for quick reading), and then I send them out weekly and we prepare them separately and meet for reading and discussion.

Sounds GREAT. You must really be enjoying the study. I know I would.

I'm weighing whether or not to begin taking courses from the Open University here to complete a second BA (in Hebrew) in preparation for MA studies. It's long in coming, for sure.

Do what you love, and if you get paid for it, all the better!

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

Any specific links you'd suggest for representative sampling?

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

Oh, I see that Tim Hegg is One Law. I'll read through some of his arguments. Thanks for the suggestion! I'm going to look at this one first.

Heber · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
Do you need my e-mail address? What's the e-book about? Also, is it epub or another format? I've never had an epub in Hebrew!

I'm currently reading הכלב היהודי (The Jewish Dog) with my Hebrew bookclub. We meet biweekly on Monday mornings. Just so happens that we're meeting tomorrow and I haven't finished my reading yet. I'm also meeting my weekly Hebrew study group online today at 15:00 (Jerusalem time). We're reading a segment about Israeli state symbols that I put together. I'm the one who puts together the texts (which includes adding vowels to unpointed articles that I find online or in textbooks for quick reading), and then I send them out weekly and we prepare them separately and meet for reading and discussion.

I'm weighing whether or not to begin taking courses from the Open University here to complete a second BA (in Hebrew) in preparation for MA studies. It's long in coming, for sure.

Sounds good. Would these degrees be on Hebrew as a language or some other subject studied in Hebrew, as opposed to English?

yonah_mishael · Oct 16, 2011

Heber said:
Sounds good. Would these degrees be on Hebrew as a language or some other subject studied in Hebrew, as opposed to English?

I'd like to study Hebrew as a Second Language with my goals towards teaching and curriculum building.

Heber · Oct 16, 2011

yonah_mishael said:
I'd like to study Hebrew as a Second Language with my goals towards teaching and curriculum building.

Wow, a first and second degree studying a second language is going to be a tall order. Most folk would not attempt a first degree in a second language, let alone a Masters. I wish you well, Yonah.

I've just started a second Masters. My thesis will be on aspects of Paul's teaching (hence the Sandmel book). I shall not say which aspect on here, though.

Under the law??

הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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הֱיֵה קודם כל בן אדם

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