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Dave Ellis

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That's not what I'm stating at all. Obviously you can comment on ontology and metaphysics in a philosophical realm, as they are philosophical concepts.

I would counter though that you do not understand science. Science deals with hypotheses based on observation and empirical evidence. Through experimentation, those hypotheses can be determined to be factual, or false. The existence, or non-existence of anything, is a scientific matter... Philosophy can not confirm, or disprove the existence of anything by itself, you need empirical evidence to justify believing that something actually exists.




You're trying to dodge the point. Assume for the sake of argument I actually believed this dragon existed. Using your criteria for belief in God, I am perfectly justified in believing in my dragon as well.

Is this wrong? And if so, explain how.

And again, God is not a first principle just because you want to define the concept that way.




Again, just because you define God as a first principle, does not mean he actually exists.

To be justified in believing this thing exists, you must have some kind of evidence. Otherwise, it's just simply a concept in your head.
 
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dcyates

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Thank you for the kind words, Elioenai. And please know that I pray the same for you, as well.
 
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dcyates

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Mark, it seems to me that such a view as yours necessarily introduces the problem of infinite regress. What do you do about that?
 
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Davian

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Show your math.
It could be, but not successfully. You are the one making the assertion.

Nevertheless, I have backed up my assertion.
No, you have not. Not even a larger font, or a darker shade of green will help in this case.


LOL!!! Okay. I'm leaving these two sentences 'as is' and, as a show of good faith, will refrain from comment.
I am asking, in determining this "fine tuning", to what are you comparing the cosmos to?


ETA? Estimated Time of Arrival?!? What does your version of "ETA" stand for?
You must be new to this. I stands for "Edit to Add", and I put it there as a courtesy to other posters, like yourself, to be clear on what I changed on my original post.

Really? What would you rather call a very sudden, unimaginably hot expansion of energy and matter in all directions? Frankly, methinks a rose by any other name...
"The Big Bang is not an explosion of matter moving outward to fill an empty universe. Instead, space itself expands with time everywhere and increases the physical distance between two comoving points. Because the FLRW metric assumes a uniform distribution of mass and energy, it applies to our Universe only on large scales—local concentrations of matter such as our galaxy are gravitationally bound and as such do not experience the large-scale expansion of space." wiki
 
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dcyates

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Right, but why are the doctrines believable?
Yeah, I'm going to have to go with ellis here, JonF. If you're going to reject something like the Kalam cosmological argument based solely on the fact that atheists refuse to accept it and its coherence, I really fail to see how you've improved the situation by instead positing the Calvinist's TULIP, which after all consists of doctrinal stances to which even the vast majority of theists don't adhere (and that includes most Christians). To be truthful, in my opinion, doing so actually introduces far more problems than it fails to solve.
 
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dcyates

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Even supernatural occurrences could leave testable evidence, which we could scientifically examine.
Not really; because looking at the effect is only half the story, and often the least important half. Those occurrences, or causes, are, by definition, unrepeatable.

Science works on no presupposition, and in fact presupposition is against the principles of Science.
Here I'm definitely going to have to call bullflop. Approaching anything completely free of presupposition is impossible.

Science is all about following where the evidence leads.
If only. Too often today science is all about following where the govt grants and politics lead.
 
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JonF

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Do you know what ontology and metaphysics are? They definitely deal with existence.

You keep repeating your self. Address my position one of these directly:

-Belief in God is a first principle (nerds a valid objection to my argument)
-Science isn't relevant to belief in God (either way) because of the fundamental assumptions of science
-How a priori synthetic claims are justified.
 
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sandwiches

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Irestible grace explains that, did you actually read it?

So, after reading a bunch of your replies, it boils down to:
"I believe it's because I am chosen that I believe in God."

When pushed on why you started believing you keep mentioning this "irresistible grace" doctrine. So, as someone else said from the very first time you mentioned this doctrine: You believe "just because."
 
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Archaeopteryx

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I think you've missed his point. You argue that things in the universe have been arranged such that they are "just right" for human life, and that this apparent fine tuning is supposedly reason enough to suspect that some benevolent intelligence has arranged the cosmic arena in such a way to accomodate our existence. Tyson rightly points out the absurdity of such a view. The perimeter of "just right" for human life is around only tiny fractions of a fragile world, in a universe dominated by "not just right" spaces that would result in our instant death. The universe hasn't been fine tuned for our existence.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Mark, it seems to me that such a view as yours necessarily introduces the problem of infinite regress. What do you do about that?

Please explain to me why you think my view introduces an infinite regress. My view is intended to avoid one.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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WonderBeat

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Actually, we are all, as the collective Son of God, responsible for the creation of the universe. Not God the Father, per se.
 
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dcyates

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And you're wrong.
That's it?!? I'm wrong?!? Wow! Way to make it easy on yourself! Here, I'll do the same thing.

No, I'm right.

It's clear that's how things are.
Yes! Of course! I mean, tornadoes go through junk yards and leave behind fully functioning Boeing 747s all the time! Right?

You have no justification whatsoever to jump to the conclusion that an intelligence did it, or those numbers could have come out any other way than they did.
So, let me see if I've got this straight. If you come across a TV set, a radio, a microwave oven, a laptop computer, an automobile, an oscillating fan, whatever -- you have no justification whatsoever to "jump" to the conclusion that an intelligence was behind any of it.
Okay. So, if you and I were walking along a beach, and I spotted a compact disc in the sand, picked it up and marvelled: "Wow! Look at this, Dave! The water and the tides took the available sand, kelp, driftwood, seaweed, what have you, and over the course of thousands, perhaps millions of years, through purely blind, purposeless forces, managed to work it all together so that this CD was produced! And lo and behold! It's even compatible with your computer!" you would prudentially respond: "You're entirely correct, David. It APPEARS amazing, but in all reality it truly isn't. After all, you have no justification whatsoever to jump to the conclusion that any intelligence was the cause of this otherwise beach-bound compact disc"?

No, actually I strongly suspect your reaction would be to look at me like I was out of my flippin' gourd -- and you'd be right.
(I'm using a computer disc as an illustration because Bill Gates once said that DNA was like code for a computer program, "only a lot more complex.")

No, you haven't.
I haven't?!? Well, then what are all those scientific facts and mathematical figures doing there?

Simply asserting what you believe as truth is not backing up your assertion.
Gee, I could have saved myself a lot of time then if all that I rehearsed above really only amounts to the simple statement, "What I believe is true."
The fact is, I'm doing a heckuva lot more to back up my arguments than anything I've seen coming from you God-haters. Unless, that is, you think simply gainsaying whatever a theist presents constitutes a substantive counter-argument. Your responses here provide perfect examples of this: "And you're wrong." "It's clear that's how things are." "No, you haven't." Lol. Pretty thin there, ellis.

Actually, a comment would be applicable here, as he didn't contradict himself as you seem to be implying.
Yes, he did.

He said for you to make a claim of fine tuning, you would need something to compare this universe to.... namely another universe.
You mean, such as universes where factors were such that they collapsed in upon themselves soon after their coming into existence? Or one where its characteristics were such that stars and galaxies were unable to form? Or a universe where heavier elements failed to be produced? Or another one where none of the lighter elements could exist? Or one that consisted only of blackholes? Or another one that was nothing but hydrogen gas? Or one wholly incompatible with the formation and development of complex lifeforms? Or of any type of life altogether? You mean another universe like any of those?

He also stated, he doesn't know if one exists.
Right. No one does. And speculating on the possibility of one's existence isn't based on scientific thought, much less observation. Although that doesn't seem to stop any atheists (who otherwise trumpet their devout dedication to 'science') from doing so.

All that means is that the evidence you'd require to prove your position may not exist.
Oh. Haven't I already declared that deducing the existence of God from all of this is simply an inference to the best explanation? I didn't make the claim it was "evidence" or "proof."
 
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Dave Ellis

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That's it?!? I'm wrong?!? Wow! Way to make it easy on yourself! Here, I'll do the same thing.

No, I'm right.

Apparently you failed to read the part after I said you're wrong, explaining why you were wrong....


Yes! Of course! I mean, tornadoes go through junk yards and leave behind fully functioning Boeing 747s all the time! Right?

I never asserted they did.



The reason you are able to identify the CD as designed, is because you can contrast it with all the natural features around it that aren't.


Bill Gates is a computer programmer, not a biologist. I would guess his knowledge of DNA is comparable to the general population. DNA is not a code per se, we write it as a code so we can easily perceive it... But to condiser it as some kind of encoded data is incorrect.


I haven't?!? Well, then what are all those scientific facts and mathematical figures doing there?

Without comparable data, you can not generate odds. You'd need to have access to many universes to determine what the statistic probability of things turning out like they did in this universe is. They had a sample size of one, everything they did statistics-wise is speculation. Proper statistics don't work that way.

I'm sure the scientific figures are accurate. But again, there's no reason to assume they could be "tuned" any other way.


Gee, I could have saved myself a lot of time then if all that I rehearsed above really only amounts to the simple statement, "What I believe is true."

That's basically what you're doing. We've explained to you why the fine tuning argument is nonsense, and you continue arguing it.

The fact is, I'm doing a heckuva lot more to back up my arguments than anything I've seen coming from you God-haters.


Who hates God on here? Can you name names?


Again, if you only read "and you're wrong", and ignore the explanation why afterwards.... then it's pretty weak.

If you actually read the full response, you could address the counter-argument, which is the strong part.

Yes, he did.

No, he didn't... and I explained why.


Yeah, that's exactly what you'd need to create reliable statistics.


You're mistaking speculation with assertion. Nobody on here has asserted multiple universes do, or do not exist. There's nothing wrong with speculation though.

Oh. Haven't I already declared that deducing the existence of God from all of this is simply an inference to the best explanation? I didn't make the claim it was "evidence" or "proof."

But it's not the best explanation. Even if the universe was indeed "finely tuned".... you still have absolutely no justification to assume it was an intelligent force, or God that did it. There is simply no evidence whatsoever to tie the two concepts together.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Do you know what ontology and metaphysics are? They definitely deal with existence.

Dealing with existence, and providing justification to believe something exists are two completely separate things.

You keep repeating youself. Address my podition one of these directly:

-Belief in God is a first principle (nerds a valid objection to my argument)

Every God argument I'm aware of shows god to exist because of "x". That's a demonstration it's not a foundational principle, and is reached because of some form of deduction. It might be scripture, it might be an ontological argument, it might be any form of apologetic.

You simply have no reason to assume God is a first principle. You need to provide reason why you accept belief in his existence.

-Science isn't relevant to belief in God (either way) because of the fundamental assumptions of science

This has been previously addressed. Science makes no fundamental assumptions.

-How a priori synthetic claims are justified.

Empirical evidence.
 
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dcyates

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Show your math.
What're you, my teacher?!? No! Address the arguments! Posit counter-arguments! Show me where the math is wrong! Go ahead, make my day! Give me your best shot! Sock it to me! But for goodness sake, give me something other than these pathetic, meaningless, non-responses that do everything to evade, avoid, or otherwise obfuscate the points being presented. Please.

It could be, but not successfully. You are the one making the assertion.
Oh, brother. Sigh.

No, you have not. Not even a larger font, or a darker shade of green will help in this case.
Yeah, that's relevant! You did notice that my original post didn't consist of any larger font than is normal, didn't you? Then why bring it up here? Except to further evade the issues, that is.

I am asking, in determining this "fine tuning", to what are you comparing the cosmos to?
Isn't it obvious? I'm comparing it to universes that are not fine-tuned (hypothetical though they may be). I'm even explaining how those universes would result without such fine-tuning. I think I'm being perfectly clear here.
And you should be aware that the term 'cosmos' actually connotes 'order', as in 'an orderly universe as opposed to a chaotic one'. One could even go so far as to say, 'a universe that is fine-tuned as opposed to one that is not', which is, of course, the very topic at hand.
(On a lighter note, cosmos is a Greek term that originally indicated "to bring order from a state of chaos," from which we get the term 'cosmetics'.)

You must be new to this. I stands for "Edit to Add", and I put it there as a courtesy to other posters, like yourself, to be clear on what I changed on my original post.
Fine. I was just asking. (And don't think I don't appreciate your giving me a straight-forward answer -- if only for this one time.)

Yeah, as I say, "A rose by any other name...." This is really a distinction without a difference.
Now, are you ever going to answer my question?
 
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KCfromNC

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You need to look into the philosophy of science more. Science rest on many assumptions.

None of which is the assumption that everything is natural, which was your original claim.

Please demonstrate causality without first assuming it. If you can you would become rather famous.
Assume causality is false - there will be no consequences for any actions. Punch someone in the face. Observe consequences. Initial assumption is proven false. There you go - causality demonstrated via a proof by contradiction, no assumption of causality needed.


Doesn't matter, since it's off topic for answering the question "why do you believe". This simply shows what categories of justification are off limits, assuming your assumptions are correct. It says nothing about the actual existence of a justification in one of the not-off-limits categories or its validity. Substitute "justification, assuming one exists" for "justification" in the above claims and you'll see what I mean.
 
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JonF

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You simply have no reason to assume God is a first principle. You need to provide reason why you accept belief in his existence.
I gave you a valid deductive argument for this, which you have yet to give any valid refutation of one of its premises.

This has been previously addressed. Science makes no fundamental assumptions.
Yes it does. It assumes natural law exist, another way to state that is there are consistent governing principles. It assumes causality hold. It assumes universality. You seriously need to take a good look into the philosophy of science.

Empirical evidence.
Oh? All that a priori empirical evidence huh?

None of which is the assumption that everything is natural, which was your original claim.
Have you looked into the history/philosophy of science? Be honest. Or are you just asserting this yourself.

You need to read more into what causality is.

Your argument is hard to follow her. Are you claiming that in my argument you can substitute “any random person” with “God”. That isn’t so, belief in the existence of people is verifiable.
 
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