UMC and ECLA: What are their key differences?

I've been reading about various Christian faiths, both online and in books, to the point that my eyes are about to shrivel up and fall out of their sockets.

Could someone well-versed in the ways of the United Methodist Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America point out the key differences between these two groups--in their theology, worship style or any other area?


Thank you,

SS

Soma Seer said:

I've been reading about various Christian faiths, both online and in books, to the point that my eyes are about to shrivel up and fall out of their sockets.

Could someone well-versed in the ways of the United Methodist Church and the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America point out the key differences between these two groups--in their theology, worship style or any other area?


Thank you,

SS

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In some ways, they're quite similar in being more-or-less moderate in theology. But the ELCA is liturgical in worship style whereas most Methodist churches have moved away from anything that would be recognizable as the historic, liturgical style of worship.

On that point, the ELCA, like all Lutherans, believe in the Real, physical Presence in Holy Communion, whereas, Methodists either believe it's representational or only a spiritual presence.

The ELCA is "gay-friendly," whereas the issue has divided the UMC. The church remains on the conservative side with that issue.

It would be possible to point to other little theological differences here or there, but really, most of them are not noticeable to the average church-goer.

Albion said:

...The ELCA is liturgical in worship style whereas most Methodist churches have moved away from anything that would be recognizable as the historic, liturgical style of worship.

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That's excellent info. to have; I still lean toward the liturgical worship style, having come from a Roman Catholic background.

...The ELCA, like all Lutherans, believe in the Real, physical Presence in Holy Communion, whereas, Methodists either believe it's representational or only a spiritual presence.

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I didn't realize that any Protestant group believes in the Real, physical Presence in Holy Communion. :o Maybe I need to give the ELCA--or at least Lutheranism in general--a closer look.

The ELCA is "gay-friendly," whereas the issue has divided the UMC. The church remains on the conservative side with that issue.

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I'm a bit more liberal on that subject but sense that I could fit into a faith group that is more conservative about it. Now if a minister were to go all fire-and-brimstone on the subject, I may have to bolt. Same goes for any church whose minister brings politics into the sermon/homily.

Soma Seer said:

That's excellent info. to have; I still lean toward the liturgical worship style, having come from a Roman Catholic background.

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With THAT additional information, I'd definitely think you would feel at home with Lutheran worship. Conversely, those who have tried Methodism, hoping that the worship style was like the Catholic or Episcopalian worship except maybe just a little more simplified, have generally been disappointed.

I didn't realize that any Protestant group believes in the Real, physical Presence in Holy Communion. :o

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Oh yes. That's Lutheranism regardless of the synod. The difference from Catholicism is that they don't believe the bread and wine are eliminated. The communicant is believed to receive it all--bread, wine, body, blood--but the presence of Christ's very physical flesh and blood is the same as in the Catholic Church.

Maybe I need to give the ELCA--or at least Lutheranism in general--a closer look.

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Seems right. The ELCA is the most liberal and politically active of them all, but the Lutheran churches are quite similar otherwise.

I'm a bit more liberal on that subject but sense that I could fit into a faith group that is more conservative about it. Now if a minister were to go all fire-and-brimstone on the subject, I may have to bolt. Same goes for any church whose minister brings politics into the sermon/homily.

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Churches vary from parish to parish, you know, but it's a good rule of thumb to say that the ELCA takes a lot of stands on world and national politics whereas the Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod feel that politics and spirituality are to be kept separate. In addition, the more conservative synods are doctrinally precise but Lutherans are not fundamentalists and, in general, are not given to fire-and-brimstone type preaching. Most sermons are seminary type expositions of a Biblical teaching and how it applies to our own lives, etc.

Albion said:

With THAT additional information, I'd definitely think you would feel at home with Lutheran worship. Conversely, those who have tried Methodism, hoping that the worship style was like the Catholic or Episcopalian worship except maybe just a little more simplified, have generally been disappointed.

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I never would've reached that conclusion about the UMC's worship style; I'd attended a UMC service about 17 years ago and marveled that the service was nearly identical to that of the Catholic Mass. The only difference was that the order (timing) of a few rituals was reversed; other than that, it was nearly the same. The minister--albeit a woman--even wore vestments. Needless to say, I felt rather comfortable during that particular service and in awe of the similarities.

Has the UMC become non-liturgical in just the last 20 years, or so? If that's the case, I wonder what brought about such a drastic change, since what you describe of the UMC worship style and what I experienced seem drastically different.

That's Lutheranism regardless of the synod. The difference from Catholicism is that they don't believe the bread and wine are eliminated. The communicant is believed to receive it all--bread, wine, body, blood--but the presence of Christ's very physical flesh and blood is the same as in the Catholic Church.

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Ha! I never even had considered the possibility of believing that bread, wine and the Presence all co-exist during Communion. Now that's something for me to chew on--pun partly intended.

Seems right. The ELCA is the most liberal and politically active of them all, but the Lutheran churches are quite similar otherwise.

Churches vary from parish to parish, you know, but it's a good rule of thumb to say that the ELCA takes a lot of stands on world and national politics whereas the Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Synod feel that politics and spirituality are to be kept separate. In addition, the more conservative synods are doctrinally precise but Lutherans are not fundamentalists and, in general, are not given to fire-and-brimstone type preaching. Most sermons are seminary type expositions of a Biblical teaching and how it applies to our own lives, etc.

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I think the Missouri Synod group may have changed over the years. My mom--now age 63--was raised in that faith and recalls the pastor pounding on the pulpit, screaming about hell and such. Maybe that was just a thing with him and that specific parish. Either way, her experience scared me off from Lutheranism for all these years, which is why I never have investigated its teachings/practices.

Soma Seer said:

I never would've reached that conclusion about the UMC's worship style; I'd attended a UMC service about 17 years ago and marveled that the service was nearly identical to that of the Catholic Mass. The only difference was that the order (timing) of a few rituals was reversed; other than that, it was nearly the same. The minister--albeit a woman--even wore vestments. Needless to say, I felt rather comfortable during that particular service and in awe of the similarities.

Has the UMC become non-liturgical in just the last 20 years, or so?

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Not that much. I'd call your experience unusual, but these things vary from congregation to congregation and from one part of the country to another. You might survey the local UMC churches before making a final decision, but I'd be surprised if you would find any to be like that one you described.

Ha! I never even had considered the possibility of believing that bread, wine and the Presence all co-exist during Communion. Now that's something for me to chew on--pun partly intended.

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Yes, that was Luther's view of the sacrament. He took the Words of Institution ("This is my body," etc.) literally, as Western Christianity had long done, but thought that Transubstantiation (which had only been declared as the official teaching 300 years earlier) made the mystery of the sacrament into magic, like a kind of religious alchemy. He used the idea of a poker in a furnace as an analogy. It does indeed change...because it becomes red hot, but it's still metal.

I think the Missouri Synod group may have changed over the years. My mom--now age 63--was raised in that faith and recalls the pastor pounding on the pulpit, screaming about hell and such. Maybe that was just a thing with him and that specific parish. Either way, her experience scared me off from Lutheranism for all these years, which is why I never have investigated its teachings/practices.

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I'd call that atypical of LCMS pastors. They can be cold and stiff, because the church takes all doctrines very seriously, but I don't think you're likely to run into many who rave like that.

In another thread/forum, the issue of Monergism/Synergism--with which I'd been unfamiliar--arose. Someone stated that the Lutheran Church follows Monergism and the UMC Synergism. Ironically, I lean toward the idea of Synergism.

So the faith group that typically eschews a liturgical style is the one that holds a belief with which I more closely align. That would figure.


SS

Soma Seer said:

In another thread/forum, the issue of Monergism/Synergism--with which I'd been unfamiliar--arose. Someone stated that the Lutheran Church follows Monergism and the UMC Synergism. Ironically, I lean toward the idea of Synergism.

So the faith group that typically eschews a liturgical style is the one that holds a belief with which I more closely align. That would figure.


SS

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Alas, that's the way it is with most people. There's almost always something...so you have to decide how critical each is to you, weigh them against each other and all of that.

On this monergism/synergism issue, I think you're right about who's in which corner, although I'd hasten to add that Lutherans are not Calvinists and certainly not the ELCA. I doubt that you'd notice this particular issue coming through in practice if you go ELCA.

While Methodists are indeed as you say here, and it is apparent in their attitudes toward social matters (pro-abortion rights, peace activism, charitable institutions) and the always-controversial issue of "entire sanctification," the infrequency of Communion and the bare bones of a liturgy might be more consequential.

Of course, I'm speculating pretty freely, not knowing how important each factor is to you or what the churches in your area are like.

Albion said:

On...monergism/synergism,...I doubt that you'd notice this particular issue coming through in practice if you go ELCA.

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Quite likely; I doubt that most churchgoers get into heated debates over Monergism/Synergism.

...The infrequency of Communion and the bare bones of a liturgy might be more consequential.

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I honestly am unsure about how I'd feel about once-monthly Communion and bare-bones of a liturgy. The only thing I know that I dislike is when a church gets into rock-music performances--and especially if they put song lyrics on a large screen. That setup feels less like "Church" to me and more like a purely secular form of entertainment; so any UMC that goes that route would not be a good fit for me.

Of course, I'm speculating pretty freely, not knowing how important each factor is to you or what the churches in your area are like.

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Heck, I am speculating at this point. I need to do quite a bit more research on various Christian groups and decide which ones do not make the cut for me. Only then will I even know what individual churches to consider visiting. So much reading, so little time....