Troubles leaving the ELCA

Studeclunker · Aug 31, 2010

Doulos, reading the last part of your post I take it you voted to stay? Please don't hold it against those who voted to leave when they do. You can expect your congregation to shrink very close to the lines of the vote. Hopefully, those who voted to leave go to a LMCS or WELS congregation.

When the Statement On Human Sexuality came out some years back, I made the decision to leave the E*CA. When the Bishop of the Pacifica Synod expressed his disapointment of the huge numbers of laity who voted against this heresy, I knew that our leadership had lost their way. The time had come to go. Now, you and thousands of E*CA members are seeing the fruition of that movement. You are seeing the leven that has permeated the entire church. Sadly, the same result seems to be occuring.

I wish you all the best and hope you will see the light and come out of the darkness that has permeated the E*CA.

doulos_tou_kuriou · Aug 31, 2010

Studeclunker said:
Doulos, reading the last part of your post I take it you voted to stay? Please don't hold it against those who voted to leave when they do. You can expect your congregation to shrink very close to the lines of the vote. Hopefully, those who voted to leave go to a LMCS or WELS congregation.

When the Statement On Human Sexuality came out some years back, I made the decision to leave the E*CA. When the Bishop of the Pacifica Synod expressed his disapointment of the huge numbers of laity who voted against this heresy, I knew that our leadership had lost their way. The time had come to go. Now, you and thousands of E*CA members are seeing the fruition of that movement. You are seeing the leven that has permeated the entire church. Sadly, the same result seems to be occuring.

I wish you all the best and hope you will see the light and come out of the darkness that has permeated the E*CA.

Stude, this is nit my congregation. I opted to stay in the ELCA but I had no "vote" in terms of this congregation. The point of those comments were regarding the similarity in the feeling of the close vote in August 2009.

There is still plenty life and light in the ELCA, regardless of what is happening on a church-wide level. Gross oversimplifications of the state of the churches would be unfair as well as untrue.

I understand why many left but feel staying is my calling. And I think change can only happen if people remain. That's not a shot at those who left, just an explanation in brief of why I must stay.

Pax

LutheranandLonely · Sep 2, 2010

I'll be surprised if the ELCA remains the largest Lutheran Synod in America much longer. If it does, the numbers will be way down. It wouldn't surprise me to see 1/2 of the members to leave and either become LCMC or the new Synod North American Lutheran Church.

Zecryphon · Sep 2, 2010

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
Stude, this is nit my congregation. I opted to stay in the ELCA but I had no "vote" in terms of this congregation. The point of those comments were regarding the similarity in the feeling of the close vote in August 2009.

There is still plenty life and light in the ELCA, regardless of what is happening on a church-wide level. Gross oversimplifications of the state of the churches would be unfair as well as untrue.

I understand why many left but feel staying is my calling. And I think change can only happen if people remain. That's not a shot at those who left, just an explanation in brief of why I must stay.

Pax

Do you think people want change in the ELCA? And if so, in which direction would they like that synod to change in? More liberal or more conservative or maybe, just more middle of the road?

Zecryphon · Sep 2, 2010

LutheranandLonely said:
I'll be surprised if the ELCA remains the largest Lutheran Synod in America much longer. If it does, the numbers will be way down. It wouldn't surprise me to see 1/2 of the members to leave and either become LCMC or the new Synod North American Lutheran Church.

But doesn't this assume that people leaving the ELCA want to remain Lutheran? I don't think there's any way we could measure how many people not only left the ELCA for other church bodies, but also left for other denominations that may be more liberal, and that's hard to imagine for me.

doulos_tou_kuriou · Sep 2, 2010

Zecryphon said:
Do you think people want change in the ELCA? And if so, in which direction would they like that synod to change in? More liberal or more conservative or maybe, just more middle of the road?

I think if everyone who wants conservative change leaves no one will want conservative change. Although conservative might not be the best word either (same with liberal). I think change needs to happen, and I think if no one is there to call for it change will never come (or at least the change you hope for). I'm not denying that it would be hard or that as a body the ELCA clearly has been moving in a certain direction, but I have yet to give up on it--particularly at the congregational level. Even if I can never swing the vote of the synod (which is unlikely given various steps taken to ensure votes move in a certain direction) you can still greatly impact people where it matters more, in the church, not the church-wide assembly.

Pax

doulos_tou_kuriou · Sep 2, 2010

LutheranandLonely said:
I'll be surprised if the ELCA remains the largest Lutheran Synod in America much longer. If it does, the numbers will be way down. It wouldn't surprise me to see 1/2 of the members to leave and either become LCMC or the new Synod North American Lutheran Church.

To be honest this seems like a bit of a dramatic overstatement. More likely I would imagine something like 1/4 of membership at the most leaves. Now that is not counting the general decline of the church that has far preceded this issue.

And as Zechryphon has noted it is difficult to impossible to know exactly how many left for this reason and where they all will go. The congregations will likely mostly join NALC or LCMC mostly (a few will likely go LCMS too), but as this entire thread shows it is not easy to leave, so the congregations leaving portion is much smaller than members leaving portion, which will flock mostly I think to LCMS, NALC (if some are nearby), and I think the more Evangelical churches because many who leave on this will likely look for a church that regularly speaks out against homosexual behavior far more than Lutheran churches do given our gospel imperative within preaching vs. the ethical, law-oriented sermons of evangelical stream churches.

Pax

seajoy · Sep 2, 2010

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
I think if everyone who wants conservative change leaves no one will want conservative change. Although conservative might not be the best word either (same with liberal). I think change needs to happen, and I think if no one is there to call for it change will never come (or at least the change you hope for). I'm not denying that it would be hard or that as a body the ELCA clearly has been moving in a certain direction, but I have yet to give up on it--particularly at the congregational level. Even if I can never swing the vote of the synod (which is unlikely given various steps taken to ensure votes move in a certain direction) you can still greatly impact people where it matters more, in the church, not the church-wide assembly.

Pax

I think you are wearing rose colored glasses. But that is just my opinion. It would be impossible for me to sit, week after week, within a church body that has gone so far the wrong way. What are you doing to change things? And how has it helped so far?

doulos_tou_kuriou · Sep 2, 2010

seajoy said:
I think you are wearing rose colored glasses. But that is just my opinion. It would be impossible for me to sit, week after week, within a church body that has gone so far the wrong way. What are you doing to change things? And how has it helped so far?

Just my opinion, by staying I am doing more for the congregation than by leaving. It means I actually have the ability to vote. To speak up when the congregation addresses these topics.

And week after week God is still working in the ELCA, and I still hear his sweet gospel. It may surprise some to hear it, but just because sin is in the church does not mean God left. I can sit there week after week because I trust in the promises of Christ that remain amidst the sins of God's people. And it may be a surprise to those who watch from a afar that many congregations are not the bleeding heart generic, protestant democrats that seems to be the prevailant stereotype of the ELCA.

Again, some people need to leave, that's their choice. But I do not see how I can. And that may baffle you, but I am invested in the good of this church. And while I'm not saying they are perfect parallels, I have seen similar situations on a small scale with struggling churches, churches that for some reasons they can control and others they cannot the church is in distress, not doing well, maybe even has internal struggles, and a lot of people leave. But a faithful few remain, seeing what God has done there and believing God is not done. And I have seen churches that turn around against all doubt. So you remain in your doubt, doing nothing to change the situation. While I will trust in the Holy Spirit, lean on God's mercy, look for him to raise up the right prophets, and pray without ceasing for continued joy and life in my church. And I believe with all my heart that the Lord will one day answer, "Comfort, Comfort, now my people"

Pax

seajoy · Sep 2, 2010

I've never been elca, so I don't plan to do anything to help it. Do you think other synod members should come in and help you? I think the last thing they would want is a WELS'er in their midst.

RadMan · Sep 2, 2010

doulos_tou_kuriou said:
Just my opinion, by staying I am doing more for the congregation than by leaving. It means I actually have the ability to vote. To speak up when the congregation addresses these topics.

And week after week God is still working in the ELCA, and I still hear his sweet gospel. It may surprise some to hear it, but just because sin is in the church does not mean God left. I can sit there week after week because I trust in the promises of Christ that remain amidst the sins of God's people. And it may be a surprise to those who watch from a afar that many congregations are not the bleeding heart generic, protestant democrats that seems to be the prevailant stereotype of the ELCA.

Again, some people need to leave, that's their choice. But I do not see how I can. And that may baffle you, but I am invested in the good of this church. And while I'm not saying they are perfect parallels, I have seen similar situations on a small scale with struggling churches, churches that for some reasons they can control and others they cannot the church is in distress, not doing well, maybe even has internal struggles, and a lot of people leave. But a faithful few remain, seeing what God has done there and believing God is not done. And I have seen churches that turn around against all doubt. So you remain in your doubt, doing nothing to change the situation. While I will trust in the Holy Spirit, lean on God's mercy, look for him to raise up the right prophets, and pray without ceasing for continued joy and life in my church. And I believe with all my heart that the Lord will one day answer, "Comfort, Comfort, now my people"

Pax

If I remember correctly you are in good company. CFW Walther recommended that people should stay and fight for their synod. If I find the quote I will post it.

doulos_tou_kuriou · Sep 17, 2010

I thought I would share these statistics (for those interested). This comes from the Metro Lutheran Sep issue:
"As of August 3, his [ELCA Secretary David Swartling] office had been advised that 504 of 10,239 congregations have taken first votes to terminate their affiliation with the ELCA. Of those, 348 passed and 156 failed. Synods also reported that 212 congregations took second votes to leave the ELCA, of which 199 passed and 13 failed, he said."

doulos_tou_kuriou · Sep 17, 2010

Here is also an update on that congregation:
Zion to associate with LCMC

In short, they are "officially" still ELCA but now are affiliated with LCMC. For more info read the article.

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