Trinity question?

Jahleel said:

Don`t mean to hijack the post, but if jesus was god, then why did he still pray to god the night he was betrayed? why did he say he`d be seated at the right hand of god? you can`t sit on the right hand of yourself,and why did he say "god my father why have you forsaken me" and "father forgive them for they know not what they do"?

Not criticizing just seeking answers.

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okay - you are and were as human as your father - did you ever speak to your father - it is as simple as that,so what and where is the problem except in you - twinc

jesusfreak220 said:

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in a different folder but I most definitely am hoping to find some Scriptural answers to these questions.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus is G-d?
I know the Bible doesn't use the word "Trinity" but what is the Biblical proof for that idea that G-d is three in 1?

I'm sure that this is likely to start a debate given how personal these issues are and I know that Christians all the world over are taught that Jesus Christ is G-d and that G-d is 3-in-1 but I'm just wondering where the Biblical support for that is. Or where the Biblical rationale AGAINST that is. My Biblical background isn't strong enough to remember arguements for or against on my own.

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it has been stated that the Trinity is a man made - but is it anymore manmade than this revealation by God to Peter "flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but my Father in heaven" - God in Divinity is a trinity just as man in his humanity is a trinity - father,son and human spirit all equally human in their humanity - twinc

twinc said:

okay - you are and were as human as your father - did you ever speak to your father - it is as simple as that,so what and where is the problem except in you - twinc

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:o:o:o

Colossians 1:15-17 shows the divinity of Christ with clarity, and with 2:9-10 we see he is over everything, and if he were not the one God, then it would not be God who would be over everything, and that would be absurdity. Christ the incarnation of Logos, the Word, as the Son, is God together in union with the heavenly Father.

jesusfreak220-

These passages should help you understand more clearly the relationship between Jesus Christ and the person we call God the Father:

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God as something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11,NIV)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Colossians 1:15-20,NIV)

First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I am come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:8-14,NIV)

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

The God we worship sent Jesus to be among us. He also is the same God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, made an agreement with Abraham, and ordered entire societies to be annihilated because they had deliberately chosen to follow the path of evil. We can say that Jesus is God, because he came out of the Godhead. But we cannot say that God is Jesus, because Jesus is only one facet of an infinitely multifaceted Godhead.

God bless-

Harry3142 said:

jesusfreak220-

These passages should help you understand more clearly the relationship between Jesus Christ and the person we call God the Father:

Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God as something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death - even death on a cross!

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:5-11,NIV)

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. (Colossians 1:15-20,NIV)

First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). Then he said, "Here I am, I am come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices which can never take away sins. But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. (Hebrews 10:8-14,NIV)

But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (I Corinthians 15:20-28,NIV)

The God we worship sent Jesus to be among us. He also is the same God who led the hebrews out of Egypt, made an agreement with Abraham, and ordered entire societies to be annihilated because they had deliberately chosen to follow the path of evil. We can say that Jesus is God, because he came out of the Godhead. But we cannot say that God is Jesus, because Jesus is only one facet of an infinitely multifaceted Godhead.

God bless-

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Yahweh God sent Jesus to be among us and he is the same God. God is infinite, in all of God's characteristics, being essential existence, but being so in being multifaceted is one thing I never came across before. How is that found to be so? If Jesus is only one of an infinity of anything, how does that work with a trinity? How does that work with him being God with equality in union with the Father in heaven?

I understand that God is Jesus Christ the Son, who is the incarnation of Logos the Word, in union with the heavenly Father and his Spirit.

Cults always bring up the Trinity and manage to get young Christians to believe the whole of Orthodoxy is deceived because of this! The Bible is a manual for living and we are to be well skilled in the Word of righteousness.

There are many scriptures that address the Trinity. The most effective ones IMO, are the ones that show the character and nature and attributes of the Father in Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? Who hath told it from that time? Have not I the Lord? And there is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me. Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, the Word is gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear."
Isaiah 45:21-23

"For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God."
Romans 14:10-11

"No one is holy like the LORD, For there is none besides You, Nor is there any rock like our God."
1 Sam 2:2

“And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ”.
1 Cor 10:2-4

"For I am the Lord, I change not;”
Mal 3:6

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and for ever."
Heb 13:8

“To whom will ye liken Me, and make Me equal, and compare Me, that we may be like?”
Isaiah 46:5

“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill Him, because He not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was His Father making Himself equal with God.”
John 5:18

“Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:”
Phil 2:5-7

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”
2 Cor 4:3-4

"For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power:”
Col 2:10

“But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.”
Micah 5:2

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder: and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon His kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Isaiah 9:6-7

“Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son, whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the Word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;”
Heb 1:2-3

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
1 Tim 3:16

"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and His redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God."
Isaiah 44:5-6

"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 1:8

"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am He that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of Hell and of death."
Rev 1:17-18

“For Mine own sake, even for Mine own sake, will I do it: for how should My name be polluted? And I will not give My glory unto another. Hearken unto Me, O Jacob and Israel, My called; I am He; I am the first, I also am the last. Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and My right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Isaiah 48:11-13

"And I fell at His feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy."
Rev 19:9-10

"Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."
Matt 4:9-10

"And again, when He bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him."
Heb 1:6

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.”
John 5:22-23

“But unto the Son He saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the scepter of Thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity, therefore God, even Thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness above Thy fellows.”
Hebrews 1:8-9

“Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.”
Isaiah 48:16

"And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say: For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say."
Luke 12:11-12

“Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.”
Luke 21:14-15

“But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.”
Matt 10:19-20

“Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.”
John 8:42

"But when the Helper comes, Whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.”
John 15:26-27

"And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ."
Gal 4:6-7

“Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And He shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:”
Acts 3:19-20

“And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
Eph 2:20-22

"For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
2 Cor 6:16

“That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.”
Eph 3:17-19

“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear My voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with Me.”
Rev 3:20

“To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.“
Col 1:27

“And I will put My Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep My judgments, and do them.”
Ezek 36:27

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? And after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? Why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? Thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
Acts 5:3-4

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3

“The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.”
Job 33:4

"Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
Acts 3:26

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Romans 8:10-11

"Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt Thou rear it up in three days? But He spake of the temple of His body."
John 2:19-21

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know Him that is true, and we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.”
1 John 5:20

“And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent.”
John 17:2-3

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."
Deut 6:4-5

"one" = echad = compound unity.

"For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”
1 John 5:7-8

“And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. And straightway coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him: And there came a voice from Heaven, saying, Thou art My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
Mark 1:9-11

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
Matt 28:19-20

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”
1 Peter 1:2

“Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.”
1 Cor 12:3-6

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."
2 Cor 13:13-14

There are hundreds more. The Jehovah's Witnesses try to take these scriptures apart and change their very Bible over a thousand times. It is all through the Word and they cannot change the character and nature of God found throughout the Bible. Although this was kept a mystery in the OT, it is revealed there nonetheless.

jesusfreak220 said:

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in a different folder but I most definitely am hoping to find some Scriptural answers to these questions.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus is G-d?
I know the Bible doesn't use the word "Trinity" but what is the Biblical proof for that idea that G-d is three in 1?

I'm sure that this is likely to start a debate given how personal these issues are and I know that Christians all the world over are taught that Jesus Christ is G-d and that G-d is 3-in-1 but I'm just wondering where the Biblical support for that is. Or where the Biblical rationale AGAINST that is. My Biblical background isn't strong enough to remember arguements for or against on my own.

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You may want to explore some of the things that the Greek/Eastern Orthodox Church says about the Trinity. I am very uncomfortable with a lot of Western ideas and arguments, but I find myself in harmony a lot with Eastern ones. The two are radically different. If one doesn't speak to you, the other might.

Thank you, Alive Again, for all the passages you show for support. I know of those passages but I would not think of most of them for making the point. But together such passages show the Bible teaching that Christ is the Word who is God, the heavenly Father and his Spirit are God that he is with as well, so Christ is Yahweh God in union with the Father in heaven and his Spirit. There is only the one true God.

Clearly Mary Magdalene recognizes Christ here. Then Christ tells her not to touch Him yet for He hasn’t yet ascended to God. This is an absolute that God and Jesus are different. There are many, many more of Jesus stating that He is the Son of God.

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Yeah, He is. Scripture usually refers to God as the Father, but not always. Sometimes it is Jesus and sometimes it is the Holy Spirit. Jesus is not the Father. They are different person, but are one in the Godhead. Same power and will. Same attributes. Jesus is the Word of God, who was in the form of God, and was God. He is not the Father. One God though.

I cannot even imagine a scripture or dogma that would be convincing that God died for three days. There is no powers in all the universes that can end His existence.

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Jesus' physical body died for 3 days. He lived on preaching the spirits in "prison" in Abraham's Bosom.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh 1 Tim 3
In the beginning was the Word John 1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth Gen 1
All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made John 1
And God said, Let there be light: and there was light Gen 1
The Word was God John 1
And God said, Let us make man in Our image, after Our likeness Gen 1
The same was in the beginning with God John 1
The Word was with God John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God .John 1
…Thou art our Father; we are the clay, and Thou our potter…we…are the work of Thy hand Isaiah 64
The… Son, who is in the bosom of the Father… John 1
For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth Col 1
All things were created by Him, and for Him Col 1
And He is before all things Col 1
And by Him all things consist Col 1
In Him was life John 1
God created the heaven and the earth Gen 1
He is the Maker of all things…The LORD of hosts is His name. Jer 51
My hand has laid the foundation of the earth Isaiah 48
…meats, which God hath created 1 Tim 4
Without Him nothing was made that was made John 1
Thou hast created all things...for Thy pleasure Rev 4
"He has made the earth by His power Jer 51
He has established the world by His wisdom Jer 51
...His Son… by Whom also He made the worlds Heb 1
…All things were made by Him John 1
… the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not Isaiah 40
God, who created all things by Jesus Christ Eph 3
Him that liveth for ever and ever, who created… Rev 10
Who created heaven, and the things that therein are Rev 10
Lord, Thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth… Acts 4
Christ, who is the image of God 2 Cor 4
His dear Son…the image of the invisible God Col 1
…His Son…being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person Heb 1
… God will raise up unto thee a Prophet…like unto Me…saying, Let me not hear…the voice of…God Deut 18
The LORD has said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You Psalms 2
In all things He might have the preeminence Col 1
It pleased the Father that in Him should all fulness dwell Col 1
In Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily Col 2
That which was from the beginning…which was with the Father 1 John 1
The mystery of godliness…God was manifest in the flesh 1 Tim 3
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him John 1

Out of thee…He…whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting Micah 5
They shall call His name Emmanuel…God with us Matt 1
For unto us a Child is born…His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace Isaiah 9

Jesus said to them, "I AM He…they drew back and fell to the ground John 18
Jesus answered, "I have told you that I AM He. (“He” was added in by translators) John 18
If you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins John 8
There is salvation in no one else…for there is no other name Acts 4
There is no God else beside Me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside Me Isaiah 45
Look unto Me, and be ye saved…unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear Isaiah 45
…the judgment seat of Christ…every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God Romans 14

I am He, I am the First, I am also the Last Isaiah 48
I the Lord, the first, and with the last; I am He Isaiah 41
I am the first, and I am the last; and beside Me there is no God Isaiah 44
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending…the Almighty Rev 1
…I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead…I am alive for evermore Rev 1
…I come quickly; and my reward is with Me…I am Alpha and Omega Rev 22
Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come... Rev 4
"Who is this King of glory?…The LORD of hosts, He is the King of glory." Psalms 24
"Hosanna!’Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' The King of Israel! John 12

My Father is greater than I John 14
…Jesus…in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God Phil 2
…made Himself of no reputation, and took…the form of a servant…made in the likeness of men Phil 2
…found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself…became obedient unto death Phil 2
Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death Heb 2
…as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He…took part of the same… Heb 2
…He took not on Him the nature of angels; but He took on Him the seed of Abraham Heb 2
...it behoved Him to be made like unto His brethren Heb 2
…that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God Heb 2

In this place is one greater than the temple Matt 12

…be ye saved…I am God…unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear Isaiah 45
…Christ…every knee shall bow to me, & every tongue shall confess to God Romans 14
…at the name of Jesus every knee should bow…every tongue…confess that Jesus Christ is Lord Phil 2

…I will not give My glory to another Isaiah 48
…glorify Me together with Yourself John 17
…with the glory which I had with You before the world was John 17
…show us the Father…Have I been with you so long, & yet you have not known Me, Philip? John 14
…Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God John 20
…And I fell at his feet to worship Him. And he said…see thou do it not Rev 19
…I am thy fellow servant…worship God Rev 19
…They saw the young child…and fell down, and worshipped Him Matt 2
…They that were in the ship came and worshipped Him Matt 14
…Jesus met them…And they came and held Him by the feet, and worshipped Him Matt 28
…And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped Him John 9
…Get thee hence, Satan…Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only… Matt 4
…And they worshipped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy Luke 24
…Let all the angels of God worship Him Heb 1

…Nor is there any rock like our God 1 Sam 2
…That spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ 1 Cor 10
…The Father of lights, with Whom is no variableness James 1
…For I am the Lord, I change not Mal 3
…Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever Heb 13

…The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters Gen 1
…He may abide with you for ever John 14
…The world seeth Him not John 14
…(The world) neither knoweth Him John 14
…Ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you John 14
… (He) shall be in you John 14
…I (Jesus) will love him (he who loves Me), & will manifest Myself to him. John 14
…The Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father John 15
…God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts Gal 4
…Ye are the temple of the living God… 2 Cor 6
…I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God 2 Cor 6
…The Spirit gave them utterance Acts 2
…The Spirit helpeth our infirmities Romans 8
…The Spirit maketh intercession for us Romans 8
…He maketh intercession for the saints Romans 8
…Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God Eph 4
…'I (Jesus) am able to destroy the temple of God & build it in three days Matt 26
…The Holy Ghost shall teach you…what ye ought to say Luke 12
……the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you Matt 10
…The Holy Ghost, Whom the Father will send in My name John 14
…He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance John 14
…The Holy Ghost, Whom God hath given to them that obey Him Acts 5
…why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost Acts 5
…thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God Acts 5
… the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul… Acts 13

…If the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you Romans 8
…"Jesus…said…destroy this temple, & in three days I will raise it up John 2
…I lay down My life…I have power to take it again John 10
…The Prince of life, Whom God hath raised from the dead Acts 3
…God, having raised up His Son Jesus Acts 3
…The firstborn from the dead Col 1

…baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Matthew 28
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord Deut 6
…The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee… the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee…that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
Luke 1:35

…the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen."
2 Cor 13:13-14

…I am the Lord; and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty Exodus 6
…By My name, Lord, I did not make Myself known to them Exodus 6

… He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. John 3
…The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand John 3
…My Father has been working until now, and I have been working John 5
…He…said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God John 5

…For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself John 5

… the Scriptures…these are they which testify of Me John 5

For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me John 5

…My Father gives you the true bread from heaven John 6
…the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world John 6

…Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know John 6
…How is it then that He says, 'I have come down from heaven John 6
…Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father John 6
…He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him John 6
…I live because of the Father John 6
…he who feeds on Me will live because of Me John 6
…out of his heart will flow rivers of living water…He spoke concerning the Spirit John 7
…I am the light of the world John 8
…If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also John 8
…He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone… John 8
… I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me John 8
… “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad John 8
…You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" John 8
…Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM John 8
… Then they took up stones to throw at Him John 8
… “I and My Father are one." Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him John 10
… The Jews answered Him…because You, being a Man, make Yourself God John 10
…believe the works, that you may know & believe that the Father is in Me, & I in Him John 10
…If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also John 14
…from now on you know Him and have seen Him John 14
…show us the Father…Have I been with you so long, & yet you have not known Me, Philip? John 14
…He who has seen Me has seen the Father John 14
… 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? John 14
…Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me… John 14
…the Father that dwelleth in Me, He doeth the works John 14


…I came forth from the Father and have come into the world John 16
…Again, I leave the world and go to the Father John 16
…Thomas answered and said unto Him, My Lord and my God John 20
…glorify Me together with Yourself John 17
…with the glory which I had with You before the world was John 17
…one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You John 17
…You loved Me before the foundation of the world John 17
…He ought to die, because He made Himself the Son of God John 19
…The LORD said to My Lord…If David then calls Him 'Lord,' how is He His Son? Matt 22
…baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit Matthew 28
…Go……and lo, I am with you always.. Matthew 28
…the Lord Jesus Christ…God…the Holy Ghost, be with you all 2 Cor 13
…God the Father…the Spirit…Jesus Christ 1 Peter 1

jesusfreak220 said:

I'm not sure if this belongs here or in a different folder but I most definitely am hoping to find some Scriptural answers to these questions.

Where does the Bible say that Jesus is G-d?
I know the Bible doesn't use the word "Trinity" but what is the Biblical proof for that idea that G-d is three in 1?

I'm sure that this is likely to start a debate given how personal these issues are and I know that Christians all the world over are taught that Jesus Christ is G-d and that G-d is 3-in-1 but I'm just wondering where the Biblical support for that is. Or where the Biblical rationale AGAINST that is. My Biblical background isn't strong enough to remember arguements for or against on my own.

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Check out the table on this web site:

Jehovah is Our Savior
“Besides Me there is no Savior”—Isaiah 43:3,10; 45:21,22; 60:16; 49:26

Jesus is Our Savior
“Savior of the World”—1 John 4; Luke 2:11; 2 Timothy 1; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1


Jehovah is Our Redeemer
As for our Redeemer, Jehovah of Hosts is His name—Jeremiah 1:34, Isaiah 47:4

Jesus is Our Redeemer
Christ has redeemed us—Galatians 3:13; Revelation 5:9; Titus 2:14; Luke 24:21

Jehovah is Our Creator
I am Jehovah who makes all things...alone, by Myself—Isaiah 44:24

Jesus is Our Creator
All things were made by Him—John 1:3 All were created by Him—Colossians 1:16

Jehovah is Our Source of Life
He gives life to all—Acts 17:25 He is your life—Deuteronomy 3:20; 32:39

Jesus is Our Source of Life
He gives life to the world—John 6:33 I am the life—John 14:6; 11:25; 6:27-47

Jehovah is Our Father
Jehovah our Father—Isaiah 63:16; 64:8

Jesus is Our Father
Father of Eternity—Isaiah 9:6

Jehovah is The I AM
His name is I AM—Exodus 3:14 Jehovah (Yahweh) means “He Is.”

Jesus is The I AM
Before Abraham was, I AM—John 8:58 Who is, was, and is to come—Revelation 1:8

Jehovah is Lord of Lords
Deuteronomy 10:17

Jesus is Lord of Lords
Revelation 17:14.

Jehovah is Our Shepherd
Jehovah is my Shepherd—Psalm 23:1; Isaiah 40:11

Jesus is Our Shepherd
I am the Good Shepherd—John 10:11

Jehovah is The Almighty
The Almighty God—Genesis 17:1; 28:3; etc.
Thine is the power—1 Chronicles 29:11; Matthew 6:18

Jesus is The Almighty
The Almighty—Revelation 1:8 The Mighty God—Isaiah 9:6
He has all power in heaven and earth—Matthew 28:18.

Jehovah is The Holy One
You alone are Holy—Isaiah 6:3 The Holy One—Isaiah 30:15; 54:5

Jesus is The Holy One
The Holy One—Mark 1:24; Luke 4:34; Acts 3:14

Jehovah is Our Light
Jehovah is my light—Psalm 27:1; Isaiah 60:20

Jesus is Our Light
The Light of the world—John 8:12; 1:9

Jehovah is Our Rock
He alone is my Rock—Psalms 62:6; 18:2

Jesus is Our Rock
Christ is the Rock—1 Corinthians 10:4; 1 Peter 2:8

Jehovah is Our King
Jehovah is King forever—Ps. 10:16

Jesus is Our King
King of Kings—Rev. 17:14; Matt. 21:5

Jehovah is The First and Last
Isa. 43:10; 41:4, 48:12

Jesus is The First and Last
Rev. 22:13; 1:8

Jehovah is Our Hope
Jehovah my Hope—Jer. 17:13, 17; 50:7

Jesus is Our Hope
Jesus Christ our Hope—1 Tim. 1:1

Hello Kenny,

Thought that I would see what condition your condition was in.

I have read the Forum Rules many times and there are no limits where I can Post. Btw, You are not the OP.

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You must be a Trinitiarian to be in the Orthodox section. I've seen them come and go. What's left is "unorthodox" I know, but for good reason. God has been at work on the earth for a long time now and Jesus heads up the church. The Holy Spirit of God is teaching the church that their IS a Trinity. This is not a new concept.

The Nicene Council voted overwhelmingly in favor of the deity of Jesus. It didn't take Constantine to see this happen. God was at work in the church, just like He is today. The heresy that was at work denying this then, works today as well.

It takes a belief that an emperor made this happen instead of Christ as head of the church to enable this deception to occur.

The problem with the unorthodox "churches" is that they typically believe the whole "orthodox" church is apostate.

I asked how Jesus heard your prayer, and you answered "Christ hears you clearly". Although many are anointed, Jesus is THE Christ. Jesus was with God in the beginning, was in the form of God, and IS God. It says this right in the Gospel of John. You have to discount scripture in order to deny the doctrine of the Trinity in the Word. If you can do that, then their is nothing left after doing away with the standard for everyone.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1 John 5:7

Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Heb 3:7-8

This scripture was given in the OT, by "God"!

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.
2 Cor 13:14

How is Jesus eternal if He is not God?

Jesus died on the cross. Unlike God, Jesus has a beginning.

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Jesus was the living Word of God made flesh. He humbled Himself and took on the form of a servant. He died and was resurrected. He lives today. He hears your prayer because like the Father, He is God. Only God can hear everyone's prayer at the same time. Jesus is eternal.

God made everything from nothing. Not Jesus or the Holy Ghost.

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He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
John 1:10-11

Jesus made the everything that was made. Jesus was NOT made. He was given a body on earth, but He is eternal.

The holy-ghost does what God instructs it to do. It can do nothing on it’s own nor has any powers other than a few that God has granted.

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This is why what you say is so deceived. The Holy Ghost is not an IT. The Holy Spirit is a HE. It's don't talk, become grieved, lead us into truth, etc. Persons do these things. The Holy Spirit has the attributes of God, is eternal and of course is also God.

As I said...

It won't be learned though in a finger pointing environment, it must be discerned spiritually by someone seeking truth. That's where the voice of the Lord is heard.

It is obvious you are not a seeker and you have already rejected many scriptures that clearly indicate the Holy Spirit is a person, the person of God, that Jesus is the eternal Word made flesh, is also God, etc.

If you're a seeker it would be different. But you're trying to strongarm "truth" with deception, and then deny the evidence to the contrary like it wasn't there. If you prove yourself to be open, you might be able to stay, but otherwise, according to the rules, you'll have to go where quite a mixed bag affiliates. I'm sure you'll find a lot of sympathy there.

I truly hope you reconsider though and not be so closed about it, since tons of scripture indicates 3 persons in one God.

Jesus dwells in you. Father God dwells in you. The Spirit of God dwells in you. How do they all do that?

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1 Cor 3:16

The Holy Spirit is NOT an angel. Where did you come up with this?

The Holy-Sprit-Angelic is not a God-Like Deity and merely walks beside me as a helper/teacher.

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The Holy Spirit teaches the entire church to pray as they ought. He is their comforter. Only God can do this.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Romans 8:9

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:14

The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Job 33:4

And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1 John 5:6

Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
1 John 4:13

The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?
James 4:5

Sound like a person?

In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Eph 2:22

God is the father, no one else. God is a deity and infinite. Jesus is human and, as you say, they are different.

Neither are Jesus and/or the Holy-Spirit-Angelic (my wording); God!

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You have your evidence to the contrary from the Word. If you reject that, I can only give you some more. As the Holy Spirit once said, "If you reject truth, I have nothing else to offer you."

It bears mentioning that the Council of Nicea wasn't a debate over whether Jesus was God or not. Both sides agreed that Jesus was God.

The debate was whether Jesus was the same God as the Father (homousios) or if Jesus was a separate God than the Father (heterousios).

Arianism effectively taught that there were two Gods, the Uncreated Father and the Created Son, the Son being the Creator-Deity of the universe.

-CryptoLutheran

No, Jesus has always been the head of the flock. Granted, some wrong turns have been made, but God isn't going to let foundational things about who He is get messed up.

You have to discount scripture in order to deny the doctrine of the Trinity in the Word. If you can do that, then their is nothing left after doing away with the standard for everyone.

I did too and He said that I was correct.

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You discounted scripture and someone told you you were correct?

That is very sad. I was born again the day I received revelation about Jesus being the divine Son of God. I was born again immediately. I was baptized in the Holy Spirit shortly thereafter. I've been zapped many times with the power of God, healed, delivered, ministered deliverance, gave prophetic words, pray in tongues, words of knowledge and wisdom, discerned spirits, had dreams and visions, enjoyed the glory cloud, heard the voice of God, cast out devils, moved in the anointing, etc. God pulled the veil back once while I was typing on this forum, boasting about how reliable His Word was (I've never been the same!). Unorthodox people believe everyone else is deceived about who God is and how to please Him, but that is deception.

I was one of the weakest Christians I have ever even heard of to one that is "way out in the realm of
mercy and grace" (where we belong), but receiving His strength.

I know many who have seen Jesus, seen a glimpse of Heaven, or hear from Him in depth every night. They are nothing special of themselves either, but they are sold out to God and have received the power spoken of in the Book of Acts.

I'm not boasting of myself (I was one of the worst sinners) or my friends, but I'm boasting about a great God and what gives is for real and is no deception. I'm a witness of His resurrection and I know Him on the inside while I type this message. I can tell you truly that the whole anti-Trinity thing is not of God. It is of the devil. You can be set free just like I was and it was GLORIOUS when I was set free from this very "truth".

I am one of His little ones and no one special, He loves us all the same, but Jesus and the Holy Spirit made it real clear who they were and only God does the things that they do. If you receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, He begins to reveal Himself every day and it's not by anything I've done, or by anything special that I am.

I'm sorry to say but I've already got through the bondage of not knowing who Jesus and the Holy Spirit are, and (totally by grace, nothing of myself) I've seen these things come up on the Forum where people claim the whole church has been deceived in this matter. Jesus said the gates of Hell would NOT prevail against His church. There is a far better life for you in the Spirit my friend, and if you will humble yourself and listen with a spiritual ear, you'll hear the Spirit beckon to you to receive the walk of the Spirit and power.

The question was asked, and it was answered, with plenty of Bible scripture, that Jesus is God, as is the Holy Spirit, there is only the one true God, and we who are believers are to be baptized in their one name, they are one. There has been warning from moderation somewhere not to answer trolling, so I won't do that. With persistent posting contrary to orthodox position on this in spite of the scripture given supporting the orthodox, this thread will face being moved to the unorthodox theology, where it will be taken over by all sorts of unorthodox teachers, even though enough Bible support for orthodox teaching for understanding of trinity of God is already given. I will just note this time that even so what I and others have said for it has gone neglected where it shouldn't have been.

What I spoke of were wonderful experiences by the Spirit of God, confirming His Word (which tells us who He is). You consider them Satanic?

Sowing discord among brethren. This is something God hates. You already know this forum in Orthodoxy is all about being a Trinitarian, yet you come in here and speak the things that you do.

It is obvious you have no spiritual ears, so what is your purpose for being here?

Rather than moving this thread to Unorthodoxy, it is more appropriate to move the user.

It is good to want to have a scriptural basis for the things they believe. It is not wrong to ask for it. It is wrong to make blanket statements contradicting and then not being willing to listen with humility the sure answers.

BTW - Constantine was NOT the Head of the church, nor was he considered it. He was over the Eastern Roman Empire and he made it the "state" religion, so just like one of our presidents, if he did so, he guided the church from the earthly, outward position. Jesus was and is the Head of the church. The church knew it then. It was good for someone as an Emperor to be a believer as the real Head of the church can turn a ruler's heart as per His instruction.

MOD HAT ON


Multiple reports.

Closed for review.

Please keep in mind that if you hold other than Trinitarian view, the only place you may discuss those views is in Unorthodox Theology.


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