Trinitarianism: What Non-Trinitarians Believe

CherubRam · Jun 11, 2014

Der Alter said:
What is this supposed to mean?

I keep hearing this stuff over and over and I keep asking for evidence but nobody, no how has ever provided any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which describes a Trinity in any pagan civilization before or up to the present day. There is no such evidence. By that I don't mean what some anonymous person says on some random website. Historical evidence i.e. something written at or near the time of the events by participants or direct eye witnesses. There ain't no such evidence!

In the cuneiform tablets that date back to the days of Abraham, there is a list of gods; a number of them were trinities. The reason for this address to Israel, Quote: Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." The reason was because they were going into lands that had Pagan trinities, and they did not want the people to join any pagan trinity notions to Yahuah.

Der Alte · Jun 11, 2014

CherubRam said:
In the cuneiform tablets that date back to the days of Abraham, there is a list of gods; a number of them were trinities. The reason for this address to Israel, Quote: Deuteronomy 6:4 "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." The reason was because they were going into lands that had Pagan trinities, and they did not want the people to join any pagan trinity notions to Yahuah.

Nonsense! Prove it? Where are these so-called tablets, what are they called, where were they discovered, where are they kept? Who translated them?

BelCantoBaptist · Jun 11, 2014

Der Alter said:
Nonsense! Prove it? Where are these so-called tablets, what are they called, where were they discovered, where are they kept? Who translated them?

To further add on to this, I think our friend has a faulty definition of what the Trinity is. No pagan belief system had a Trinity. They had triads of individual gods (tritheism) from a pantheon of gods (pantheism). Philistines? Pantheism with Dagon at the head of the Pantheon. Canaanites? Molech with a pantheon of other gods.

The Triune nature of God is not pantheistic nor is is tritheistic.

CherubRam · Jun 11, 2014

BelCantoBaptist said:
To further add on to this, I think our friend has a faulty definition of what the Trinity is. No pagan belief system had a Trinity. They had triads of individual gods (tritheism) from a pantheon of gods (pantheism). Philistines? Pantheism with Dagon at the head of the Pantheon. Canaanites? Molech with a pantheon of other gods.

The Triune nature of God is not pantheistic nor is is tritheistic.

Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Wikipedia

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold")

Geoff Hardy · Jun 11, 2014

The shema clearly describes the Trinity in its contrast with God and man " Hear O isreal the lord your God is one Lord" If that was all it consisted of then we would be in trouble but "and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart (spirit I do not believe as some that everytime you see heart u can sub spirit but in this instance you can becuase of the next line) with all your soul and with all your strength" Deut 6:4-5 The apostle Paul knew Genesis 1:26 better than anybody on this forum and he wrote 1 thes 5:23 "your whole (oneness) spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless. I am incredibly interested where u get that isreal was expecting an immortal from heaven though?
I think even the temple with its three parts points to the trinity and man as well.
The Trinity is one of those subjects that I could listen to all day !
I have always felt that to understand the Trinity one must look to the best example of it on this planet and that is man himself.

2ducklow · Jun 11, 2014

Trinity, The Pagan Origin

The "Dictionary of Religious Knowledge":
"Many say that the Trinity is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith."

Edward Gibbon says in the preface to the "History of Christianity":
"If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure deism of the first Christians[belief in only ONE God]...was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the Trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief."

Origin of Triads and Trinities", Mr.Newton quotes Professor Sayce (Gifford Lectures and Hibbert Lectures):
"The indebtedness of Christian theological theory to ancient Egyptian dogma is nowhere more striking than in the doctrine of the Trinity. The very same terms used of it by Christian theologians meet us again in the inscriptions and papyri of Egypt."

The Nouveau Dictionary Universel:
"The Platonic Trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples,appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave rise to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churchesThis Greek philosophers [Plato, fourth century BCE]conception of the divine trinitycan be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions" (Paris, 1865-1870,edited by M. Lachatre, Vol. 2, p. 1467).
The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge:
"The doctrines of the Logos and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy. That errors and corruptions crept into the church from this source cannot be denied."

The Church of the First Few Centuries":
"The Doctrine of the Trinity was of gradual and comparatively late formation. It had its origin in a source entirely foreign from that of the Jewish and Christian Scriptures. It grew up, and was ingrafted on Christianity, through the hands of the Platonizing Fathers."

Outlines of the History of Dogma:
"Church doctrine became rooted in the soil of Hellenism [pagan Greek thought]. Thereby it became a mystery to the great majority of Christians."

Plato(Father of Pagan Trinity):
"God can in no way be described." -- Plato (Father of the pagan Trinity)

Dr.Walter Martin:
"The Trinity itself is a mystery or a "holy secret". It is incomprehensible. It can never be fully understood."

Comparative Religion: Trinity, The Pagan Origin

It makes just as much sense to say that the Christian trinity owes none of it's founding to pagan trinities as it does to say that trinity makes sense.

I think both sides can agree on that.

2ducklow · Jun 11, 2014

more stuff.

Friday, April 12, 2013Trinity, The Innovated Doctrine
Trinity, The Innovated Doctrine

The New Encyclopædia Britannica:
"Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is

The Catholic Encyclopedia:
"In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word [tri'as] (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A. D. 180. . . . Shortly afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian."

The New Catholic Encyclopedia:
"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma.
Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."-(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

The Encyclopedia Americana:
"Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."-(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel:
"The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher's [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions."-(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., Dictionary of the Bible:
"The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature' which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."-(New York, 1965), p. 899.

The Oxford Companion to the Bible (Metzger and Coogan), pages 782-3:
"Because the Trinity is such an important part of later Christian doctrine, it is striking that the term does not appear in the New Testament. Likewise, the developed concept of three coequal partnersin the Godhead found in later creedal formulations cannot be clearly detected within the confines of the [Bible] canon. ... It is important to avoid reading the Trinity into places where it does not appear."The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology (Colin Brown, editor), Volume 2, page 84:
"The Trinity. The NT does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. 'The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence and therefore in an equal sense God himself.. And the other express declarations is also lacking, that God is God thus and only thus, i.e., as The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These two express declarations, which go beyond the witness of the Bible, are the twofold content of lthe Church doctrine of the Trinity.' (Karl Barth, CD, I, 1, 437). It also lacks such terms as trinity (Lat. trinitas which was coined by Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 3; 11; 12 etc.) and homoousias which feature in the Creed of Nicea (325) to denote Christ was the same substance as the Father."

The Illustrated Bible Dictionary:
"The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century."

The Encyclopedia of Religion:
"Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity." And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: "The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament]."The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman:
"The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the "Old Testament"] suggestions or foreshadowings or 'veiled signs' of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers."

The Encyclopedia of Religion:

Comparative Religion: Trinity, The Innovated Doctrine

2ducklow · Jun 11, 2014

and without matthew 28.19 Trinitarians have nothing to hang their hat on. Even matthew 28.19 is nothing to hang a Trinitarian hat on, but it's the best that they have. That is if they have it.

Matthew 28:19 & trinity, Is it a valid proof ?
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19);
Does this not prove that the `Doctrine of Trinity' and its present day formula was communicated and promulgated in the bible ?

With all due respect, we tend to disagree in view of the following compelling evidences:-

1. `Peake's Commentary on the Bible' published since 1919, is universally welcomed and considered to be the standard reference book for the students of the Bible. Commenting on the above verse it records;
"This mission is described in the language of the church and most commentators doubt that the trinitarian formula was original at this point in Mt.'s Gospel, since the NT elsewhere does not know of such a formula and describes baptism as being performed in the name of the Lord Jesus (e.g. Ac. 2:38, 8:16, etc.)."

2. Tom Harpur, author of several bestsellers and a former professor of New Testament, writes in his book `For Christ's Sake';

"All but the most conservative of scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command was inserted later. The formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available (the rest of the New Testament) that the earliest Church did not baptise people using these words - baptism was "into" or "in" the name of Jesus alone."

3. Early Christians, such as scholars and historians (up to 350 years after Jesus’ departure), in their writings, and when quoting Matthew 28:19, give a different text than what we have today.

For example, when the Christian historian Eusebius of Caesarea (a.k.a. Eusebius Pamphili) (c. AD 263 – 339), who’s called “Father of Church History,” quoted Matthew 28:19 in his famous Ecclesiastical History, there was no triune formula in the verse.

The verse read,

“Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name, teaching them to observe all things, whatsoever I commanded you.”
He did not quote this verse in this form only once, but no less than 18 times in many of his works written between 300 and 336, namely in his long commentaries on the Psalms, on Isaiah, in his Demonstratio Evangelica and in his Theophany.

Comparative Religion: Matthew 28:19 & trinity, Is it a valid proof ?

Trinity is a loosing cause. Even the Trinitarian big shot James White wrote a book lamenting that fact, he called it "The forgotten trinity". Trinity is being forgotten in churches because it makes no sense, intelligent people don't want to repeat the mumbo jumbo necessary to explain trinity. Intelligent people want to say things that make sense. It's not everyone that can suppress his intelligence, it takes a special individual to do that.

BelCantoBaptist · Jun 11, 2014

CherubRam said:
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

Wikipedia

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (from Latin trinitas "triad", from trinus "threefold")

Awesome a Wikipedia article....that anyone can edit. I care about links why?

Do you know what the Trinity teaches? Please explain your definition for us. Then I will answer.

BelCantoBaptist · Jun 11, 2014

2ducklow said:
and without matthew 28.19 Trinitarians have nothing to hang their hat on. Even matthew 28.19 is nothing to hang a Trinitarian hat on, but it's the best that they have. That is if they have it.

Comparative Religion: Matthew 28:19 & trinity, Is it a valid proof ?

Trinity is a loosing cause.

Uhm what? John 8:58, Isaiah 6 and John 12:41, Romans 14:11, Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:8-14, Phillippians 2:9-11, John 5:18, John 20:28, and not to mention

John 8:28- "..unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins."

Der Alte · Jun 11, 2014

BelCantoBaptist said:
Uhm what? John 8:58, Isaiah 6 and John 12:41, Romans 14:11, Psalm 102:25-27 and Hebrews 1:8-14, Phillippians 2:9-11, John 5:18, John 20:28, and not to mention

John 8:28- "..unless you believe that I AM you will die in your sins."

Here are 1-2 more verses which support the Trinity.

Eleven passages, from the list of 86, below, which reveal the Triunity of God. Each passage shows Father, Son, and Holy Spirit having a different relationship, effect, role, purpose, etc., with respect to believers.

For example, #1, Titus 3:4, believers are SAVED BY Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, all three. We are SAVED BY,

1. the kindness and love of God our Savior,
2., by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost, shed on us abundantly
3. through Jesus Christ our Saviour, all three..

(1.) Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of [1] God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of [2]the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he [3] shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

(2.) 2 Co 13:14 [1] The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and [2]the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [3]be with you all. Amen.

(3.) Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, [1] praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves [2]in the love of God, looking for [3] the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

(4.) 1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to [1] the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of [2] the Spirit, [Repeated three times, cf. 2 Th 2.13, Ro 15:16] unto obedience and [3] sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: [Repeated twice, cf. Heb 9.14] Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

(5.) Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, [1] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and [2] the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing, which shall be born of thee shall be called [3] the Son of God,.

(6.) Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [1] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive [2] the gift of the Holy Ghost,.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as [3] the Lord our God shall call,.

(7.) Rom 15:16 That I should be [1] the minister of Jesus Christ, to the Gentiles, ministering [2]the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being [3] sanctified by the Holy Ghost,.

(8.) Rom 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be [1] a root of Jesse,, and he, that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him, shall the Gentiles trust.
13 Now [2] the God of hope, fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through [3] the power of the Holy Ghost,.

(9.) Heb 9.14 How much more, then, will [1] the blood of Christ, who [2] through the eternal Spirit, offered himself unblemished [3] to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!,

(10.) 2 Thess 2.13 But we ought always to [1] thank God, for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God, chose you to be saved through [2] the sanctifying work of the Spirit, and through belief in the truth.
14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might [3] share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ,.

(11.) I Cor 12.3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are [1] different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.,
5 There are [2] different kinds of service, but the same Lord.,
6 There are [3] different kinds of working, but the same God, works all of them in all men.

The Gospels and Acts

Mat 1:18-22, Mat 3:9-11, Mat 3:16-17, Mat 4:1-4, Mat 10:19-23, Mat 12:28, Mat 28:19, Mark 12:35-37, Lk 1:15-17, Lk 1:30-35 *, Lk 1:67-69, Lk 2:25-32, Lk 4:12-13, Lk 10:21, Lk 12:8-10, Jn 1:32-34, Jn 3:31-35, Jn 14:15-17, Jn 14:25, Jn 15:26, Jn 16:7-10, Jn 16:13-15, Jn 20:16-22, Acts 1:4-5, Acts 1:7-8, Acts 2:32-33, Acts 2:38-39*, Acts 4:8-10, Acts 4:24-26, Act 4:29-31, Acts 5:30-32, Acts 7:51-56, Acts 8:14-17, Acts 9:15-20 Acts 10:38, Acts 11:15-17, Acts 11:23-24, Acts 15:7-11, Acts 16:6-10, Acts 20:22-24, Acts 28:23-25.

The Pauline writings

Rom 1:1-4, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 8:9-11, Rom 8:13-16, Rom 8:26-29, Rom 15:12-13*, Rom 15:16*, , Rom 14:15-17, Rom 15:16, Rom 15:18-19, Rom 15:30, I Cor 2:8-10, I Cor 2:14-16, I Cor 6:9-11, I Cor 6:14-19, I Cor 12:3-5*, 2 Cor 1:20-22, 2 Cor 3:3-4, 2 Cor 13:14*, Gal 3:1-5, Gal 4:4-6, Gal 5:21-25, Eph 2:17-18, Eph 3:14-17, Eph 4:4-6, Eph 4:30-32, Eph 5:18-20, Phil 3:3, I Thess 1:4-6, 2 Thess 2:13-14*, I Tim 3:15-16, Titus 3:4-6.*

The General Epistles

Heb 2:3-4; Heb 6:3-6; Heb 9:14*; Heb 10:29-31; I Pet 1:2; * I Pet 3:18; I Pet 4:14; I Jn 3:21-24; I Jn 4:13-14; I Jn 5:6-9; Jud 1:20-21*.

Revelation

Rev 14:12-13, Rev 22:17-18,

2ducklow · Jun 11, 2014

A red herring is a detail or remark inserted into a discussion, either intentionally or unintentionally, that sidetracks the discussion. The red herring is invariably irrelevant and is often emotionally charged. The participants in the discussion go after the red herring and forget what they were initially talking about; in fact, they may never get back to their original topic."
(Robert J. Gula, Nonsense: Red Herrings, Straw Men and Sacred Cows: How We Abuse Logic in Our Everyday Language. Axios, 2007)

Red Herring - Definition and Examples

This is the usual and most frequent defense of Trinity that is used in here. and against red herring Trinitarian explanations, there can be no credible rebuttal. But anything won at the expense of using red herrings isn't worth winning. But on the other hand, red herrings are the only credible defense of trinity that trinitarains have, it's the only thing they have to go with really.

BelCantoBaptist · Jun 11, 2014

2ducklow said:
Red Herring - Definition and Examples

This is the usual and most frequent defense of Trinity that is used in here.

The last time I recall the Trinity being discussed with you 2duck, when you were refuted you retreated and resorted to saying that angels had spoken to you.

Now I see you're citing Christadelphian and JW sources?

2ducklow · Jun 11, 2014

here's some other big big logical fallacies that Trinitarians use in defense of trinity

Drake's List of The Most Common Logical Fallacies

Ad Hominem
This translates as to the man and refers to any attacks on the person advancing the argument, rather than on the validity of the evidence or logic. Its is one thing to say that I dont agree with you, but its another thing to say that I dont like you, and you are wrong because I don't like you; evil people often make valid claims, and good people often make invalid claims, so separate the claim from the person. Like the emotional appeal, the validity of an argument has utterly nothing to do with the character of those presenting it. Ad hominem attacks are the meat and potatoes of political campaigns, but this is because we are, in fact, debating over who to vote for. Once the votes have been cast, however, we do well to focus on the logic and evidence, not those speaking the argument.

Argument From Authority
This is the flip side of the ad hominem; in this case, the argument is advanced because of those advancing it. But arguments from authority carry little weight: the history of human kind is consistent in one fact: the frequency of human error.

Emotional Appeals
When it comes to determining the validity or factuality of a claim, any attempt to sway an argument via emotion, rather than the quality of the logic or evidence, can be considered a fallacy. This includes in some but not all cases the fallacy argument from adverse consequences, or scare tactic; bad things will happen to us if you do not agree with my argument. However, if one is arguing over whether or not bad things will occur, this is no longer a fallacy.

Weasel Words or Glittering Generality
This is the use of words so broadly defined such as love or freedom or rights or patriotism etc. etc. as to become essentially meaningless; no one, and I do mean no one, on this planet, does not value love, freedom, or rights, and most everyone is a patriot of one kind or another. Its the one kind or another nature of these words that makes them essentially pointless: they mean something different to everyone, and so their use in an argument frequently means nothing. Love, for example, refers to both sexual passion and the nature of God or divine virtue.

The Most Common Logical Fallacies

I consider red herrings to be the most common logical fallacy used in defense of trinity, but these others above are very close seconds. ad hominums is only second because red herrings involve ad hominums. without these logical fallacies, and others, there is no defense of trinity. But not to worry, because no Trinitarian ever believes he ever uses even one of these logical fallacies. So they are safe from logic. Weasel words is a biggie too, weasel words like person, and nature.

when you get right down to it though, the only way to defend the logical fallacy that 3 is one, is with logical fallacies like the ones I've posted the definition of. So really it's all they have to defend their doctrine with, so it's really in that sense to be expected. one doesn't defend logic with illogic, and one doesn't defend illogic with logic. one defends logic with logic, and illogic with illogic.

But on the other hand, the omnipresent red herring defense of trinity works great on nontrinitarians, at least it does here in CF. I'd say red herrings do their job like 90 percent of the time in the debates in here. So they work like a charm. It seems at times that people are eager to give in to red herrings. or maybe it's just that red herrings are the only game in town, not sure on that one. After all it's either debate the Trinitarian red herring that is offered, or no debate at all.

CherubRam · Jun 11, 2014

Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD. 337 ? AD.

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.

Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...

And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."

And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Yahshua, even after Pentecost.

And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Der Alte · Jun 11, 2014

CherubRam said:
Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD. 337 ? AD.

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.

Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...

And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:

"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."

And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:

"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."

There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Yahshua, even after Pentecost.

And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

Eusebius was an Arian who did not believe in the Trinity that is why he did not quote Matt 28:19 correctly sometimes. Eusebius uses a form of Mt 28:19, 29 times and cites it in three different forms:

Form 1: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations" (7 times)
Form 2: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name" (17 times)
Form 3: The traditional Triadic form (5 times) in The Theophania, The Theology of the Church, Contra Marcellum 2x, and Letter to Caesarea.

In the Theopania, Eusebius uses all three forms, in the Theology of the church Eusebius uses both forms 1 and 3, the traditional Triadic form.

http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/TC-Matthew.pdf

And here is the earliest documentation of Matt 28:19 with the Triadic formula 218 years before Eusebius.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]

1. Ignatius The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

2. Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."308 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "

3. Justin 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea]

Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127

4. Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203

4a. Tertullian On Baptism. [105 + years before Nicaea]

For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II. Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

6. Cyprian Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea]

And He laid His right hand upon me, and said, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and He that liveth and was dead; and, lo, I am living for evermore289 and I have the keys of death and of hell."290 Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

7. Origen de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea]

From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.
Chapter VII. Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea]

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the 4 baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

Let the presbyters be esteemed by you to represent us the apostles, and let them be the teachers of divine knowledge; since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV. Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

11. Tatian The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father hath sent me, so I also send you. Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15- 18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

12. Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men." And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

13. Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

14. Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

15. Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

CherubRam · Jun 11, 2014

Der Alter said:
Eusebius was an Arian who did not believe in the Trinity that is why he did not quote Matt 28:19 correctly sometimes. Eusebius uses a form of Mt 28:19, 29 times and cites it in three different forms:

Form 1: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations" (7 times)
Form 2: "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name" (17 times)
Form 3: The traditional Triadic form (5 times) in The Theophania, The Theology of the Church, Contra Marcellum 2x, and Letter to Caesarea.

In the Theopania, Eusebius uses all three forms, in the Theology of the church Eusebius uses both forms 1 and 3, the traditional Triadic form.

http://www-user.uni-bremen.de/~wie/TCG/TC-Matthew.pdf

And here is the earliest documentation of Matt 28:19 with the Triadic formula 218 years before Eusebius.

To verify citations, [ECF Link]

1. Ignatius The Epistle to the Philadelphians [30-107 a.d.], [a disciple of John.] [218 + years before Nicaea]

Chapter IX.-The Old Testament is Good: the New Testament is Better

"Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." All then are good together, the law, the prophets, the apostles, the whole company [of others] that have believed through them: only if we love one another.

2. Irenaeus Against Heresies Book III [a.d. 120-202.], [a student of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John.] [123 + years before Nicaea]

That is the Spirit of whom the Lord declares, "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."308 And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God,309 He said to them," Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "

3. Justin 1st Apology Chapter LXI.-Christian Baptism. [110-165 a.d. ][ca. 175 years before Nicaea]

Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, "Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.127

4. Tertullian The Prescription Against Heretics.1 [a.d. 145-220] [105 + years before Nicaea]

Accordingly, after one of these had been struck off, He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to "go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost." 203

4a. Tertullian On Baptism. [105 + years before Nicaea]

For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

5. The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II. Dogmatical and Historical. (c.170-c.236). [89 + years before Nicaea]

The Father's Word, therefore, knowing the economy (disposition) and the will of the Father, to wit, that the Father seeks to be worshipped in none other way than this, gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. "265 And by this He showed, that whosoever omitted any one of these, failed in glorifying God perfectly. For it is through this Trinity that the Father is glorified. For the Father willed, the Son did, the Spirit manifested. The whole Scriptures, then, proclaim this truth.

6. Cyprian Treatise XII.1 Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews. [c.200-258][67 + years before Nicaea]

And He laid His right hand upon me, and said, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and He that liveth and was dead; and, lo, I am living for evermore289 and I have the keys of death and of hell."290 Likewise in the Gospel, the Lord after His resurrection says to His disciples: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.

7. Origen de Principiis Book I [c.185-c.254] [71+ years before Nicaea]

From all which we learn that the person of the Holy Spirit was of such authority and dignity, that saving baptism was not complete except by the authority of the most excellent Trinity of them all, i.e., by the naming of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and by joining to the unbegotten God the Father, and to His only-begotten Son, the name also of the Holy Spirit.

8. The Lord's Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.
Chapter VII. Concerning Baptism. [120 AD][205 years before Nicaea]

1. And concerning baptism,73 thus baptize ye:74 Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,75 in living water.76 2. But if thou have not living water, baptize into other water; and if thou3canst not in cold, in warm. 3. But if thou have not either, pour out water thrice77 upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. 4. But before the baptism let the 4 baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but thou shalt order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

9. Constitutions of the Holy Apostles Book II. Of Bishops, Presbyters, and Deacons. [Late 2d to early 3d century] [100 + years before Nicaea]

Let the presbyters be esteemed by you to represent us the apostles, and let them be the teachers of divine knowledge; since our Lord, when He sent us, said, "Go ye, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

10. Life and Conduct of the Holy Women Xanthippe, Polyxena, and Rebecca [mid 3d century] [75 years before Nicaea]

XIV. Therefore the great Paul straightway taking her hand, went into the house of Philotheus, and baptised her in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Ghost.

11. Tatian The Diatessaron [ca. 175] [150 years before Nicaea]

Then said Jesus unto them, I have been given all authority in heaven 5 and earth; and as my Father hath sent me, so I also send you. Go now into [sup]6[/sup] all the world, and preach my gospel in all the creation; and teach all the peoples, and 7 baptize them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; and teach them to keep all whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you all the days, unto 8 the end of the world.

At the seventh Council of Carthage in 256 [69 years before Nicaea], a bishop named Vincentius of Thibaris said, "We have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, 'Go ye, lay on hands in My name, expel demons.' And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.'" Vincentius' second quotation is from Matthew 28:19. Despite attempts by some interpreters to connect the first quotation to Matthew 10:8, the references to going, laying on hands, expelling demons, and doing so in My name add up to a reference to Mark 16:15- 18, especially when placed side-by-side with the parallel passage from Matthew

Seventh Council of Carthage - Concerning the Baptism of Heretics. The Judgment of Eighty-Seven Bishops on the Baptism of Heretics. 256 a.d. [69 years before Nicaea]

12. Lucius of Castra Galbae said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men." And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

13. Munnulus of Girba said: The truth of our Mother6 the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. "

14. Euchratius of Thenae said: God and our Lord Jesus Christ, teaching the apostles with His own mouth, has entirely completed our faith, and the grace of baptism, and the rule of the ecclesiastical law, saying: "Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

15. Vincentius of Thibaris said: We know that heretics are worse than Gentiles. If, therefore, being converted, they should wish to come to the Lord, we have assuredly the rule of truth which the Lord by His divine precept commanded to His apostles, saying, "Go ye, lay on hands in my name, expel demons." And in another place: "Go ye and teach the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Even so, THE DISCIPLES DID NOT BAPTISE USING THE TRINITY FORMULA.

Der Alte · Jun 11, 2014

CherubRam said:
Even so, THE DISCIPLES DID NOT BAPTISE USING THE TRINITY FORMULA.

Irrelevant! Hey, I just proved your post false. Can you show me one verse in the NT where a disciple and a convert go down into the water, the convert is baptized and the disciple says, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus?" Tick, tock. No you can't because there is not one verse in the NT describing a baptism where the words "in the name of Jesus" is spoken. Baptism is mentioned 37 times between Acts and Revelation and the words "in the name of" only occur in 4 of those verses. And there are 2 different versions, "in the name of Jesus Christ" Ac 2:38, "in the name of the Lord Jesus" Ac 8:16, 10:48, 19:5. Two are commands to be baptized and 2 are references to completed baptisms. So which one is the "correct" form, "Jesus Christ" or "Lord Jesus?"

There are 2 baptisms recorded in scripture which describes the parties going into the water, the person is baptized, and they come up out of the water. The baptism of Jesus and the baptism of the Ethiopian Acts 8. In neither case are the words "in the name of Jesus" spoken. I guess Peter disobeyed Jesus by not saying the special words. If we go by what the disciples did, not what they said, the proper way to baptize is no words at all.

CherubRam · Jun 12, 2014

Der Alter said:
Irrelevant! Hey, I just proved your post false. Can you show me one verse in the NT where a disciple and a convert go down into the water, the convert is baptized and the disciple says, "I baptize you in the name of Jesus?" Tick, tock. No you can't because there is not one verse in the NT describing a baptism where the words "in the name of Jesus" is spoken. Baptism is mentioned 37 times between Acts and Revelation and the words "in the name of" only occur in 4 of those verses. And there are 2 different versions, "in the name of Jesus Christ" Ac 2:38, "in the name of the Lord Jesus" Ac 8:16, 10:48, 19:5. Two are commands to be baptized and 2 are references to completed baptisms. So which one is the "correct" form, "Jesus Christ" or "Lord Jesus?"

There are 2 baptisms recorded in scripture which describes the parties going into the water, the person is baptized, and they come up out of the water. The baptism of Jesus and the baptism of the Ethiopian Acts 8. In neither case are the words "in the name of Jesus" spoken. I guess Peter disobeyed Jesus by not saying the special words. If we go by what the disciples did, not what they said, the proper way to baptize is no words at all.

If the trinity formula is valid, then why is it not mentioned here in Acts 4:12.

Acts 4:12
New International Version (NIV)
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to Ananias, Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Acts 10:48
So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

1 Corinthians 1:15
so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.

2ducklow · Jun 12, 2014

The anonymous author of De Rebaptismate in the third century so understood them, and dwells at length on the power of the name of Jesus invoked upon a man by Baptism. (The Author of De Rebaptismate, from Smiths Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. I, page 352.)

In Origens works, as preserved in the Greek, the first part of the verse is cited three times, but his citation always stops short at the words the nations; and that in itself suggests that his text has been censored, and the words which followed, in My name, struck out. Conybeare

In the pages of Clement of Alexandria a text somewhat similar to Matthew 28:19 is once cited, but from a Gnostic heretic named Theodotus, and not as from the canonical text, but as follows: And to the Apostles he gives the command: Going around preach ye and baptize those who believe in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit.Excerta cap. 76, ed. Sylb. page 287, quote from Conybeare.

Justin [Martyr] ... quotes a saying of Christ ... as a proof of the necessity or regeneration, but falls back upon the use of Isaiah and apostolic tradition to justify the practice of baptism and the use of the triune formula. This certainly suggests that Justin did not know the traditional text of Matthew 28:19. Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics

In Justin Martyr, who wrote between A.D. 130 and 140, there is a passage which has been regarded as a citation or echo of Matthew 28:19 by various scholars, e.g. Resch in his Ausser canonische Parallelstellen, who sees in it an abridgment of the ordinary text. The passage is in Justins dialog with Trypho 39, p. 258: God hath not afflicted nor inflicts the judgment, as knowing of some that still even today are being made disciples in the name of his Christ, and are abandoning the path of error, who also do receive gifts each as they be worthy, being illuminated by the name of this Christ. The objection hitherto to these words being recognized as a citation our of text was that they ignored the formula baptizing them in the name of the Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But the discovery of the Eusebian form of text removes the difficulty: and Justin is seen to have had the same text as early as the year 140, which Eusebius regularly found in his manuscripts from 300 to 340. Conybeare (Hibbert Journal)

http://www.everlastingkingdom.info/article/127/
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