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Trial by Scripture

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OK I'll now see what I can offer here. The ususal is defending the truth and not really teaching someone what they believe and can't seem to find support for. Your post is well written and thought out. And I agree with it hook line and sinker for the most part. Gives me breathing room.

I see one of the things important to your thoughts to be predestination. This is touched on in Eph 1:11. Does this mean that we have no choice in the matter and what will be will be is what will be? No! I believe that God knew what choice you would make before you made it. Some say that there is no such thing as free will, yet Jesus says whosoever believes in John 3:16. This is difinately free will. In other Scriptures we see the will of a person being excercised concerning salvation. We aren't mindless robots having no choice but to do as preprogramed like some suggest and has been brought up rencently on the forum.

The proponents of no choice cite things like Easua who God hated from the womb. This is the misuse of the word and a poor choice of the translators or rather the difference of the language of 17th and 21st centuries.

Another outstanding favorite is Pharoah.

I like very much Isa 28:10 to explain this whole thing. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: I think that if one read the whole Bible as it is put together it can easily be seen. Take the issue of the sabbath for instance. Just look at its progression even within the law (Pentateuch).

Another Scripture that I like that shows this is Roman 11:32. This shows a purpose of the law and that it was accomplished.

An outstanding reference that I use all the time is Gal 3:19.

Yet this doesn't show the idea of what God was doing. I find that more in According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:4

And in John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

I Peter 1:19-20
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

These show a definate plan and Peter says before the world was created.

This is by no means a complete discussion on the topic. I think that Genesis shows God's desire of fellowshipping by fellowshipping with Adam and Eve in the Garden in the cool of the day.

This really merrits another post.
The legal system that is in place, as described in the Bible, places me on trial for my sins, and finds me inexcusably guilty. For my crimes, I am punishable onto death, eternally condemned to torment in hell.
Click to expand...
I think that is what much of Romans is about. I already cited Rom 11:32 which has bearing here also. Rom 4:15 also does a great job on this reason for the law. Well the plan isn't the reason. God's predetermined unconditional love is though. This was put into place immediately upon the first sin. There was no length of time showing something like what am I going to do now. God didn't back up an punt. It wasn't a fix for a boo boo. This is why we have this question - What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? Yeppers the enemy of my soul is extremely jealous even to anger.

God created the world with the purpose of giving a free will choice to love and have fellowship with Him. All other creatures including angels don't have this choice. This is something only extended to mankind. You have touched on the subject of this free will. Rebellionsin doesn't issue (come from) God. This really is yet another topic. I talk about the law all the time. Just never really the reason for the law which Rom 11:32 supports. So God could show mercy (how much He loves us).

Well this should get things rolling.
 
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cubinity

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from scratch, I'm about to go on a several week voyage, and won't likely be able to continue this chat.
The other thing is, I'm so used to arguing a point, I actually struggle with knowing how to talk to people I agree with... weird, huh?

Anyway, I love everything you said, and I'm glad you said it. I'd like to add details to my perspective on this topic.
 
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cubinity

jesus is; the rest is commentary.
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The story of Jesus, which we refer to as the Gospel, is a story that requires the listener to accept a few things about themselves before they can really accept the application of the Gospel to their own life. At least, I think they do.

Before I could be convinced that Jesus died for my sins, I first had to come to terms with being a sinner, which meant I had to have some concept of what sinning was, and why sinning was bad, which in turn meant understanding that there actually was a God, and that the God had some kind of behavioral standard in place.

Maybe the witness that first told me about Jesus sidetracked the theology aspect by first encouraging me to identify when I had done something that I personally considered immoral. Because I had, they could just point at that and say that was a sin, and thus I was guilty of sinning.

The tricky part is, they then had to convince me that my sin made me worthy of something worth escaping. For those that promote eternal fire and brimstone in hell, they have to convince me that the one time I haphazardly drew an anatomically detailed topless person on the wall of the bathroom at church made me worthy of suffering a torment far greater than anything humanity could impose on the gnarliest fiends in society.

However, for a nine-year-old who just lost his drunken father to divorce, it didn't take hell to draw me to Jesus. It only took the prospect of doing anything to drive my heavenly father away from me. All she had to say was that my sin displeased my heavenly father, and that it made him not able to be around me. I was hooked.

Of course, I was young, and the concept of omnipresence was lost on me, so I actually believed her, and to my vulnerable mind and heart, it seemed entirely reasonable that I could somehow achieve a state in the universe an ever-present God could not occupy.

So, convicted of my petty crime, and deathly afraid of losing another father, I signed up for Christianity in the hopes of keeping my spiritual family from ending up like my earthly one.

As an adult, years past the hurt and fear that first drove me to this religion, I find myself asking: What is the Gospel without that element of fear? What real reason would one have to cling to Jesus if not for fear of ________? Hell? Rejection? Loneliness? Emptiness? Is there anything to the Gospel if not for its antithesis?

Sometimes, when I'm speaking with the fire-and-brimstone type, I wonder if they know that there is. I know I didn't when I was younger. It was just a trial, in which I must plead guilty, and then accept the pardon that came through the ancient story of a long-dead Jewish preacher.

Today, when I take an honest inventory of my own morality and weigh my sins against it, I am guilty, but I don't consider myself guilty of anything deserving eternal damnation. It is a ludicrous concept to me.

However, I also don't look at my life and believe that I am in everything God wants me to be. Thus, I can't believe that I haven't made any choices. I have ventured from the ideal, that's for sure.

So, somewhere between hell and God's ideal, found guilty by the trial by Scripture, yet not so guilty as to deserve worse than a child molester, I find myself taking another hard look at the Gospel.

What do I do with it now, decades after buying into keeping my heavenly father around?
What do I do not that I realize I don't fear God's wrath, nor deserve a seat at His table?
What does it all mean to me, this aging man just trying to survive each day and take care of his family?

The person Jesus, the spiritual entity that haunts not just my dreams, but my every thought, must have some intrinsic value to me. I must cherish the relationship, or there would be nothing left to cherish...

And that's right about where I find myself: Jesus is my friend, my brother, my Savior, and my High Priest. He is with me, even now, as I ponder my life. He sheltered me from my youth against the other influences that would have preyed on my vulnerabilities. He snatched me from my petty sins, and showed me how to connect more fully with the heavenly father that would never leave me nor forsake me.

Jesus, the Prince of Peace and Lord of Lords, is actually worth the entire religion.

In my older years, I now appreciate that loving him in fear of losing him somehow cheapens and makes selfish my intentions. But, without any fear of anything, still finding that I want him, that I yearn for his attention and time, strengthens and affirms my love, my rich and genuine love, for him.

Yes, there was a trial by Scripture, and yes I was found guilty, and yes Jesus pardoned me through His blood. But, with all that so far behind me that I hardly remember the sting of fear it once brought, I now find myself just fully and completely infatuated with the person that knows me better than ever I know myself.

Sorry, but that's all I've got right now. God bless.
 
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from scratch

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I'm in all kinds of emotion after reading this post. And it pains me that I didn;t give you more attention sooner.

First it is no minor miricale about your concerns about a relationship with God. I do thank God that I was fortunate to make a childhood decision about God. Many were little to no help including my parents. The preacher/pastor was no help either. Hey they couldn't even get simple Bible stories straight. I found many only spouting what they have heard or been told without examination. One sees them making emotional appeals to people to get right with God. Those rarely stick and even anger lots.

In my growing experience with God there was lots of pain and misunderstanding causing failure on all sorts of issues of life. I struggled for 40 plus years. Most of my family see the Church as fraud because they consider the people and not God. If that makes any sense. The answers you seek aren't found in the organized church. They are found through personal study, prayer, God and interaction with others that God may use in your life. God will even use an unregenerate drunk to teach you if your heart is open. God through the Holy has spoken to me on both physical life functions and spiritual life functions directly at times. There is doubt still in my heart on certian issues. There are things that I believe I won't share with most if anyone because of fear and lack of understanding on their part. The social aspect of life is very cruel and really causes me to be very closed. I'd get along much better if I were to accept sin and induldge myself as they have. I don't have to say anything. All I have to do is show up and some are intimidated. A close friend or 30 years shared this problem in our getting acquainted. They have regarded me as a preacher because of speech and demeanor/deportment being amazed that I have never held a license to preach.

The peace you seek isn't found in the manifestations of the flesh. Yes those things can complicate life very much.

Way too much is assumed and based on nothing more than hear say, traditions and peer pressure (social issues). I will confess that I'm still single (60 plus) due to issues and still morally upright in conduct. And yes I've been solicited more than once as a truck driver. I simply refuse to buy common ideas about love and I'm not selling my soul. Some are replused knowing that I have control and they can't get it.

I think that I'd really rather continue this by PM if you don't mind. Just to many distractions for a public discussion. Neither of us needs to deal with them in this exchange/conversation.

Here goes hope and God be with you on your journey. May you come back safe and sound and a better man on all counts. On my prayer list. And not much makes it there.
 
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Your story is very moving, c.

First of all, I am really sorry about your Father's death; that is such a difficult thing to deal with, and it is bound to influence your relationship with God. Feeling yourself as a child abandoned by your own Father, you feared being abandoned by God, and this fear is a very pervasive one; very hard to shake off.

And then we come to the issue of parenting. There are lots of different ways of being a parent. One is to come down hard on any wrongdoing, and to threaten dire consequences. Another is to recognise that making mistakes is an essential part of growing up; if we do not attempt to do something, and fail over and over, we will never learn. In other words, before you learn to drive a car properly, you have to go through driving a car really, really badly, then less badly, and then adequately and then competently. Thus driving a car badly is not a sin; it is part of how we learn and mature.

I think we can learn from this in relation to our human lives. Yes, God could have made us perfect from the start, but this would have meant that we could not mature in relation to him; from day one we would be fully obedient, fully compliant and fully in communion with God. There are some blessed souls who have had this gift, but most of us do not. Most of us have to learn as we go along, and gradually learn to put aside what we want in favour of what God wants for us.

Just as the parent who takes delight in their toddler's first faltering steps, so God takes delight in our first attempts to pray, to give him due honour or to live lives pleasing to him. And just as the parent takes no notice when that toddler falls down, but encourages him to stand up again and have another go, so God encourages us to turn from any failings we may have, and try again.

I think if you consider the Bible as macrocosm to our lives in microcosm, and the relationship of God with the Israelites and later with the Christians as the relationship of God with a young child, later maturing into a full adult, then it may help. I don't mean that the Jewish faith is a childish one; it isn't. But the Bible is the story of God's gradual revelation of himself to mankind, and that revelation keeps pace with our ability to understand God. He doesn't change, but our understanding does.

A parent may say to a young child about to touch a naked flame, 'Stop! Don't touch that!' If he says the same thing to that child when he is grown to adulthood, it is not likely to work; his child will give him a withering look, not needing to be told not to touch flames. In other words it is a matter of relationship. Not sin, not punishment, not retribution or abandonment, but of relationship.

God will never abandon any of us, no matter what we do. Our parents may die; they really can't stop that if it is their time to go, but God will never leave us.
 
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