Tough Scripture...what's your opinion?

Vicissa said:

What do you think of this verse? I read it last night and thought on it for a long time....

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I would say it pertains to some one wh oconstantly walks in sin with no remorse what so ever, or that walks in sin with out trying to be free os said sin. How many here can honestly say they never sin any more? And then how many of us can say we still sin though we try not to? Also as a Christian we should know when we are walking in sin as we should have a conviction that most nonChristians do not have or that they disreguard.

Vicissa said:

How do you think this pertains to someone who says they know God and continue to cheat on their spouse?

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Are they remorseful after they cheat? Do they seem to be trying to stop cheating? If they cheat with no regard to the fact that it is sin than the fruit they are producing seems to show they are not walking with the Lord, though I can not see into their heart only God can.

Vicissa said:

Or how about someone who continues to go to the nightclub and drink and dance the night away?

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Are they getting drunk? Taking someone home to fornicate with? Are they dancing in inapropriate ways? From my understanding drinking in it's self is not a sin it's the getting drunk part that is. Not seen any where in the writen word that says one is not allowed to dance. If they are getting drunk and dancing in inapropriate ways it would seem they are producing bad fruit, but once again I can not see into their hearts.

Vicissa said:

Or how about someone who claims to be in fellowship with God but continues to speak with malice and vulgarity when angry????

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This is probably one of the hardest for most Christians. Who has not spoke in malice or vulgarity when angry.
But I'ld say it's not as hard in normal every day conversation. If every word they speak is vulgar then it seems hard to believe their fruit is not bad. But once again I can not see into their heart.
I'm not saying it's ok to speak malice or vulgarity when angry but I know that they can slip out every once in awhile.

God bless!
Raist

Vicissa said:

What do you think of this verse? I read it last night and thought on it for a long time....

How do you think this pertains to someone who says they know God and continue to cheat on their spouse?

Knowing God is no guarantee that we will never commit another sin. What does such conduct say to me? It says that the person doing it needs to get on their knees and pray for forgiveness and God;s help to overcome their compulsions to do what they know is wrong.

Or how about someone who continues to go to the nightclub and drink and dance the night away?

Nothing is the bible says it is wrong to drink alcohol or to dance. In fact, one of David's wives accused him of bad behavior when she saw him dancing, in public, before the Lord. God doesn't count dancing as a sin when it is done for the right reasons.

Or how about someone who claims to be in fellowship with God but continues to speak with malice and vulgarity when angry????

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I am not condoning such speech, but most of us have tempers and when we lose them we tend to get "mean and ugly". Unfortunately, it often comes out in hateful or vulgar speech.

When we fall into such traps as you describe above, we need to get with God, pray for forgiveness and beg His help in our gaining control of our emotions. Then thank Him for answering that prayer.

When we see others acting in such manner, we need to pray the same blessings of God on them that we would pray for ourselves. If the person for whom we pray is not a believer, then we must also pray that they will find God.

Fred

1 John is written in a specific context, that's why it can be so hard to understand. John wrote it to refute the Gnostic heretics, who were false teachers, spreading their own kind of pseudo-Christianity. They were redefining terms such as light, life, etc so John has to go back to the basics. You also need to know a few things that they were teaching:

They beleived that Jesus was not the God-Man, but a "divine phantom" that appeared to be physical but was not. This was because they believed that the physical realm was inherently evil, so a pure Christ in a physical body was impossible. Hence the refutation in 1 John 4:1-3.

They believed that your spirit could not be tainted by physical acts, thus you could go to the harlot house and not be any less holy before God. Hence the refutation in 1 John 1:5-6. Verse 7 is also part of this refutation,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin."

The heretics just lived a fleshly lives blended with a strange asceticism. John is saying that the life of a Christian will be different and reflect his or her beliefs. They knew how to act, so acting that way was going to separate them from the heretics who were infecting the church.

Also, John is not saying that Christians never, ever sin. Let's look at the next block of text from chapter one:

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
- 1 John 1:8-2:1

Verses 8 and 10 refute the lie that we are not sinners. The fact that we all sin and need a solution is central to the Christian faith, and heretics were obviously preaching the opposite. Verses 1:9 and 2:1 refute this with Christianity - that Jesus forgives our sin upon confession and that if we do, we are not lost forever, because Jesus speaks to the Father in our defense. Jesus is what we need to be right with God, not the Gnosis (secret knowledge) that the heretics said we needed. For there even to be a point to 1:9 and 2:1, people need to be aware that yes, they sin.

What twisted sketch said sounded pretty good to me.

I personally believe there are many Christians who think they are saved and are not saved. That's why we should all check our attitudes in life. Jesus said He is the way and the truth and the life. Seems that for some Christians He is only the truth and the life, but not the way they are walking. Is God's mercy enough to save? Yes, but if we really have that mercy and live by it, it changes our lives completely and we don't walk in darkness anymore. The passage you mentoined is just one of those passages in the Bible which reminds us about this. God is Holy, and his presence does not go together with sin.

What it comes to particular sins or ways people live, I think it all depends in the attitude of heart. Yes, I think it's possible that someone is dancing in a nightclub out of praise to God. But no-one is cheating their partner out of praise to God. Anyway we cannot say if this person will be saved or not. We don't know what is the attitude of his/her heart when the person dies or when the second coming of Jesus will take place.

Quote
1 John 1:
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.

Vicissa said:

What do you think of this verse? I read it last night and thought on it for a long time....

How do you think this pertains to someone who says they know God and continue to cheat on their spouse?

Or how about someone who continues to go to the nightclub and drink and dance the night away?

Or how about someone who claims to be in fellowship with God but continues to speak with malice and vulgarity when angry????

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If there is not at least some immediate improvement in a new believer's morals, then it is indication that this person's conversion may not have been genuine.

No one is instantly sinless for the rest of their lives. For many, moral improvement is a slow process.

Vicissa said:

What do you think of this verse? I read it last night and thought on it for a long time....

How do you think this pertains to someone who says they know God and continue to cheat on their spouse?

Or how about someone who continues to go to the nightclub and drink and dance the night away?

Or how about someone who claims to be in fellowship with God but continues to speak with malice and vulgarity when angry????

Click to expand...

it speaks of what christ said when in the judgement he says many will come and say they are saved yet Christ will tell them " when did you feed me or give me drink. (not exact qoute but i hope you know the passage) someone give this passage correctly please. cant seem to find it.

Mrs. Enigma said:

What twisted sketch said sounded pretty good to me.

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Sounds pretty good to me, too.

Blessings on you, twistedsketch.

Fred

I too think twistedsketch taught us correctly. When I read this scripture while praying and did not have any study notes availible, I felt it convict me about my lifestyle after learning about Jesus and believing in Him. I never want to become a person who sins and feels no remorse and justifies it.

in order to get a good read of this passage you have to look at the whole book. John uses some words that if you define them wrong, you get into a lot of trouble with the rest of the book. the whole light vs darkness is one of them. Being in the "light" is being in Christ, in darkness is not in Christ. vs 5 says God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. Being in Christ is having God in us, therefore there can be no darkness. The word "fellowship" is the the greek word koinonia which means to "share in a common point", this implies that we share in our faith in Christ, so the term "fellowship" simply means salvation. Another word is "commandments", this often gets interpreted as keeping a set of rules or the ten commandments. This would lead us to have no sense of security in our salvation, since we all fall short of those types of commands everyday, thereby we would not "know Him" as I John 2:3 says of those who keeps His commands. Vs 4 says that the one who says "I know Him" but doesn't keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in Him. If the truth is not in you, you are not In Christ, you are in error, and Christ is the truth, therefore He is not in you. So what are the "commands"? IJohn 3:23-24 makes it clear that His commands are that "we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us." the person who keeps these commands abides in Christ and Christ in Him, this is proved by the Holy Spirit (paraphrase). The other word is "sin" The greek word here is "hamartia" which mean "a violation of the law" in this case God's law. If this were to mean the individual sins that we commit on a day to day basis, once again, we would all pretty much not make it. The law that we all have broken is that of being in unbelief. In John 16 (the same writer of I John) Jesus says "When he (the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt, in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me;" Sin is unbelief in what the Spirit has testified of the Son, that He died to take away our sins, and rose to give us His life. I recognize some of you might not agree with this form of interpretation, that's ok, just take the time to plug in these definitions and give I John a read with those in mind, it makes a lot more sense that way. I've written a lot here , there is much more to say on the subject but I've gotten too long winded already. Just know that these defintions are based on the way these words are also used in other parts of Scripture. I hope this might be a challenge to your thinking as it was to mine the first time I heard it, until I heard it this way, I John was one of the most confusing books I've ever read

"I shall now descend from the pulpit"

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation (satisfaction) for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world." I John 2:1-2

I mostly agree with johnnieboy.

It's also good to remember these verses:
I John 3:2,3
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

Which hope? The hope that we shall be like him when he appears, the hope that we shall see him as he is. If you have that hope, you purify yourself. At least that's how I see it. What a relief... all I need to have is HOPE.

mayacca said:

I personally believe there are many Christians who think they are saved and are not saved. That's why we should all check our attitudes in life. Jesus said He is the way and the truth and the life. Seems that for some Christians He is only the truth and the life, but not the way they are walking. Is God's mercy enough to save? Yes, but if we really have that mercy and live by it, it changes our lives completely and we don't walk in darkness anymore.

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Hi Mayacca!

I just wanted to get some clarification on what you mean. If I am misinterpreting your post, please forgive me, but salvation is a free gift that we can only earn by believing on Jesus. The fruit that is exhibited by saved Christians is GROWN, so throughout the growing process, people do things all the time that might not line up with the word of God. It doesn't make them any less saved... it just means that some folks have a little more growing to do...

I think it's dangerous to say that some people who believe they are saved are not, because as you stated, Christ's work on the cross was more than sufficient- and the changes we see in people come with time sometimes.

That's all. Again, if I took your post out of context, please let me know.

Galatians 5:13