Tongues are a requirement

Luke735 · Aug 9, 2013

I believe that EVERYONE who are Born of the Spirit are able to speak in tongues. Any thoughts?

Please take special note:

Sound - Greek phone...Voice or Language
Wind - Greek Pnuema...Holy Ghost

Joh 3:8

(AMP) The wind blows (breathes) where it wills; and though you hear its sound, yet you neither know where it comes from nor where it is going. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.

(ASV) The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

(BBE) The wind goes where its pleasure takes it, and the sound of it comes to your ears, but you are unable to say where it comes from and where it goes: so it is with everyone whose birth is from the Spirit.

(CEV) Only God's Spirit gives new life. The Spirit is like the wind that blows wherever it wants to. You can hear the wind, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going.

(EMTV) "The wind blows where it wills, and you hear its sound, but you do not know from where it comes and where it goes. So is everyone who has been born of the Spirit."

(ERV) The wind blows wherever it wants to. You hear it, but you don't know where it is coming from or where it is going. It is the same with everyone who is born from the Spirit."

NOTE: EVERYONE WHO ARE BORN OF THE SPIRIT THERE IS AN ACCOMPANYING SOUND!!!

Luke 7:35

ByTheSpirit · Aug 9, 2013

Rather faulty eisegesis there. Jesus is comparing an action of the Spirit with something His audience would understand, the wind. With your logic when Jesus said if your hand causes you to sin you should cut it off, you take that literally I suppose. Or how about the one where He says pluck out your eye if it causes you to sin.

Luke735 · Aug 9, 2013

Whether one takes Jesus' comments here as literal or figurative makes no difference..EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit will be known by the audible sign of sound-voice -language is clearly what Jesus was saying here.

This is exactly what happened at Pentecost.

The real problem for many today is that this is NOT WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM SO THEY SEEK TO EXPLAIN AWAY THE TEXT.

I say this not to lable anyone, anything or to judge. I am simply highlighting a disconnect from the raw text.

I have a lot more evidence to share and explore this is simply the beginning.

Luke 7:35

Biblicist · Aug 9, 2013

I agree that all believers can ( and should) be speaking in tongues but your Scripture references have no bearing on this. Even though it is desirable that all believers spoke in tongues, it is definitely not a mandatory requirement.

Bob Carabbio · Aug 9, 2013

So then, I assume you're a member of a "Oneness Pentecostal Church", where "Tongues" is a requisite for salvation???

Luke735 · Aug 9, 2013

On the day of Pentecost it says that they ALL spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came in them.

Isn't this the precedence?

I mean this occured at around 9AM in the morning...Therefore at 9:10 AM ALL of the church spoke in tongues..Period!!!!

When did this change?

Luke735 · Aug 9, 2013

Bob Carabbio said:
So then, I assume you're a member of a "Oneness Pentecostal Church", where "Tongues" is a requisite for salvation???

Nope

Luke735 · Aug 9, 2013

In 1859 Charles Darwin published his book “The Origin of the Species” both scientists and Church leaders alike immediately attacked the claims he made in this book. The “Burden of Proof” for Darwin’s theories was placed firmly at Darwin’s feet. It was for Charles Darwin to establish that life evolved from a single cell organism, with evidence. The burden was not for other scientist or religious leaders to prove evolution false.

Now; almost 150 years later the “theory of Evolution” is still just that; “a theory” But an interesting thing has happened in the wider community. The “Burden of Proof” has now shifted from the Darwinist to prove their claims, to the Church and other scientist to disprove evolution and prove the existence of God or some other alternative.

As a result of this, shift in the “original” placement of burden. Large numbers of people now find themselves defending evolution from the standpoint that it is a basic axiom of biology, (Which it is not) rather than a theory.

The same type of Burden shift has occurred in relation to the receiving of the Holy Ghost and Speaking in Tongues. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost first occurred on the day of Pentecost ALL of the 120 disciples began speaking in tongues. After observing this event others also received the Holy Ghost. It is reasonable to state that those observers had an expectation of the same outward manifestation.

A FEW ESTABLISHED FACTS
FACT: This event was the FIRST occurrence of the outpouring of the Holy Ghost for the remission of sin.
FACT: Speaking in tongues was identified by the Apostles as the “promised” outpouring of the Holy Ghost, as promised by the prophet Joel.
FACT: This event was witnessed by people who had a reasonable knowledge and understanding of the meaning of the promised outpouring of the Holy Ghost.
FACT: hundreds, perhaps thousands of eyewitnesses, had just witnessed this event.

All of these resulted in the composite FACT that there was no “burden of proof” for the Apostles or any of the 120 to prove that those who receive the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues. For this had just been verified in front of numerous witnesses. This was also a fulfilment of Jesus’ statement Mar 16:17 and these signs shall follow them that believe… They shall speak with new tongues.

In recent years the vast majority of religious leaders believe and teach that the “burden of proof,” lies with those who profess that ALL who receive the Holy Ghost WILL speak in tongues. In reality the burden of proof” belongs to those who say, “YOU DON’T HAVE TO speak in tongues”, to prove their case by showing where this is stated in scripture.

It is clear as a matter of law according to the rules of legal evidence that those observing this event on the Day of Pentecost, had a reasonable expectation of the same outward manifestation as the one they had just witnessed; which was clearly confirmed to them as the promised outpouring of the Holy Ghost, given by God and explained by Peter the Apostle.

Those who say that you do not need to speak in tongues are saying in effect. “It is not conclusive enough according to God’s word to warrant us to have this expectation”.

To fully test this argument, one must go to the beginning of the Church and look at the FACTS. Remembering all the while the “burden of proof” lies with those who contend that speaking in tongues are not the outward manifestation associated with the baptism or being filled with the Holy Ghost.

DEFINITION:.......WHAT IS: “Burden of Proof?”

An evidentiary burden of proof or burden of leading evidence is: an obligation that shifts between parties over the course of the hearing or trial. A party may submit evidence that the court will consider prima facie proof of some state of affairs. This creates an evidentiary burden upon the opposing party to present evidence to refute the presumption.

Why is this important?

Speaking in Tongues was first observed in 33AD on the Day of Pentecost.
The events, testimonies and eye witness accounts on that day, in Jerusalem; is all we have to establish on whom to place the “Burden of Proof” (as at 10am on the Day of Pentecost 33AD)

All subsequent testimonies and experiences are to be examined on the premise that when The FIRST members of the Church received the Holy Spirit, “they ALL spoke in tongues"
Evidence is gathered and measured against this "premise" as they were established by the eye witness accounts beginning on that first day and onward.

In layman’s terms: If anyone were asked at 12pm on that day "what happens when you receive the Holy Spirit?"
The answer is without question "you will speak in different languages"
WHEN; IF AT ALL DID THIS CHANGE? “That is the Key Question“

sdowney717 · Aug 10, 2013

John 7

The Promise of the Holy Spirit

37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.

38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

Who Is He?

40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, “Truly this is the Prophet.” 41 Others said, “This is the Christ.”

Nothing anywhere scripturally shows that tongues or prophecies have ceased.

So why do men cease? Well, the spirit the of prophets is subject to the prophets.
And we are also advised not to quench the Spirit. God does give us some choice in the matter and perhaps then accountability after we have quenched Him!

There will also be many false prophets, we are warned countless times of this. I know, I have both read their writings, and heard them speak.

4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

There is a verse about times of refreshing from the LORD.
Acts 3

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,[a] 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.

Until Jesus returns we have this promise of the Holy Spirit and refreshing times from God. that is the promise of the Holy Spirit is to us, our children, and all those who are far off, even as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.

IF you believe God is still calling His people out of the world to Himself, then the promise of the Holy Spirit AND His gifts, is still real today.

Acts 2

38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”

RedRover · Aug 10, 2013

Luke735 said:
On the day of Pentecost it says that they ALL spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came in them.

Luke said they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, he does not say they all spoke in tongues.

1 Cor 12:29 Are all apostles? [are] all prophets? [are] all teachers? [are] all workers of miracles? 30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

SharonL · Aug 10, 2013

Tongues are a gift from God - not a requirement. Not everyone will accept this gift due to some belief that they were done away with. They are alive and well and will be given to all who wish to accept in God's timing.

dabro · Aug 10, 2013

Okay, are you saying that you have to speak on your own of some jabber to be a christian or do you fall under the Holy Ghost and speak in true tongue. I have only had it happen once....I have forced myself to jabber talk but I have had one moment where it felt like something grabbed my vocal cords and I started uttering mysteries. I'm just saying this because I have had a hard to with it. I believe in tongues but that is when the Holy Ghost comes over me. and it wasn't at church. It was in my room. and it only lasted like a second.......If I didn't speak in tongues then that leaves alot of ppl out of salvation which makes no sense at all.

sdowney717 · Aug 10, 2013

dabro said:
Okay, are you saying that you have to speak on your own of some jabber to be a christian or do you fall under the Holy Ghost and speak in true tongue. I have only had it happen once....I have forced myself to jabber talk but I have had one moment where it felt like something grabbed my vocal cords and I started uttering mysteries. I'm just saying this because I have had a hard to with it. I believe in tongues but that is when the Holy Ghost comes over me. and it wasn't at church. It was in my room. and it only lasted like a second.......If I didn't speak in tongues then that leaves alot of ppl out of salvation which makes no sense at all.

Definitely not a requirement of salvation, when we believe, the Holy Spirit seals us for the Day of redemption.
He gives spiritual gifts severally as He choses.

I went to a web site which claimed speaking in tongues today was of man and the argument was the tongues of the NT were in a language that was spoken among men and could be interpreted, otherwise he claimed it was pure gibberish.

That is a very spiteful and unspiritual thing to say about the Holy Spirit.

Angelic tongues which no man knows Paul mentions.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.

And

1 Corinthians 14

New King James Version (NKJV)
Prophecy and Tongues

14 Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.

2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men.

4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church.

5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

The best gift God gives is salvation.
For by grace you have been saved by faith, and this is not of yourself, it is the gift of God.

And love is also a gift. We love because He first loved us.

Eph 1

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Click to expand...

and Eph 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Everything we have, we have received.

When you speak in a tongue it is under your control, partly. You can resist or quench the Spirit, or not.

Paul said it this way

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.

15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

v15, Paul is exercising a choice that Paul has made.

Luke735 · Aug 10, 2013

Whenever someone like me gets up and says maybe we should explore the possibility that Tongues are Essential for salvation people immediately reach for Corinthians 12:28-31 to rebut such a claim.

You simply cannot do that with Corinthians 12. WHY? Because of the CONTEXT.

If this were a law debate or any other subject for that matter everyone would agree with the context as referring to a church service.

The Context of chapters 11 through 14 cannot be superimposed over the (out of Church SERVICE) setting.

Perhaps an exercise will help:

1) Open a Spreadsheet on your computer.

2) Copy/Paste the entire text of 1 Corinthians chapters 11 through 14 into one collumn.

3) At the top of this collumn write "IN THE MEETING CONTEXT"

4) Copy/Paste the same text in the adjacent collumn

5) At the top of this collumn write "OUT OF THE MEETING CONTEXT"

6) Highlight every verse that creates contradiction or absurdity when read in the "out of the meeting" context.

This is a real eye opener folks; and may change the way you think on this topic forever.

Bare in mind also that the sole instruction of church services is given in these chapters.

The word used in the Bible for meeting, assemble, convene is the Greek word "Συνέρχομαι" pronounced sunerchomai. Translated in the KJV as "Come together"

Coming Together
Συνέρχομαι sunerchomai soon-er'-khom-ahee ; to convene, depart in company with, associate with, or (specifically) cohabit (conjugally): - accompany, assemble (with), come (together), come (company, go) with, resort.

(SUNER CHOMAI) appears 8 times, All in the 1st epistle to the Church of Corinth.

5 times in chapter 11, twice in chapter 14 and 1 time in chapter 7.
IMPORTANTLY IT DOES NOT OCCURE IN ANY OTHER EPISTLE

So this is the only instruction on church service form and structure.

Consequently an instruction to a group of believers on meeting procedure (more specifically) OPERATION of Spiritual gifts in this setting CANNOT BE CONFUSED WITH OUT OF MEETING SETTINGS WHERE SUCH PROCEDURAL INSTRUCTION CANNOT AND SHOULD NOT APPLY.

God Bless

Luke 7:35

Kadams7701 · Aug 11, 2013

No......

This is a problem I have seen in many churches, I feel uneasy about it. They seem to dwell on this gift, but none of the others.

Have I spoke in tongues? yes
When I did, it was 100% of the Holy Spirit, in order and at the right time. I feel that anything that does not fall under these terms, the spirit should be tested to make sure it is the Holy Spirit.

I have the gift of Discernment, God will sometimes let me see things as they are. I have used this gift to pray for people who have been able to hide from others there true self, and problems. I never want to bring attention to myself, or Glory, for God is the only one deserving of Glory.

I have seen people use tongues to bring Glory on to themselves, or self righteous. You know how God feels about this.

That is how I feel in my Spirit.

Andy S. Wright · Aug 11, 2013

Adding to the gospel is a bad idea. A very bad idea.

Luke735 · Aug 12, 2013

Kadams7701 said:
No......

This is a problem I have seen in many churches, I feel uneasy about it. They seem to dwell on this gift, but none of the others.

Have I spoke in tongues? yes
When I did, it was 100% of the Holy Spirit, in order and at the right time. I feel that anything that does not fall under these terms, the spirit should be tested to make sure it is the Holy Spirit.

I have the gift of Discernment, God will sometimes let me see things as they are. I have used this gift to pray for people who have been able to hide from others there true self, and problems. I never want to bring attention to myself, or Glory, for God is the only one deserving of Glory.

I have seen people use tongues to bring Glory on to themselves, or self righteous. You know how God feels about this.

That is how I feel in my Spirit.

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS WHY I FELT THE NEED TO START THIS TOPIC.

i.e. TO CONVEY THE CORRECT BIBLICAL APPLICATION OF BOTH TONGUES PRIVATE (IN THE CLOSET) AND TONGUES PUBLIC (SIGN TO THE UNBELIEVER IN THE MEETING/CHURCH SETTING)

God Bless
Luke 7:35

Luke735 · Aug 12, 2013

Franklyhonest said:
It did change. Where do you see cloven tongues like as of fire again? No interpreter was required in the entire book of Acts because it was the Holy Spirit that was speaking through a person.

What was happening in Corinth was different. It was person's spirit speaking to God. Nothing to do with the Holy Spirit!Paul did not prefer this!

I think that there is a lot of misinformation and confusion that prevails among churchianity.

I will be posting a video presentation to clear the whole matter up for you all very soon.

More to come!!!!

God Bless
Luke 7:35

PraiseHisName9 · Aug 12, 2013

You're wrong. Not everyone has every gift of the spirit and that means tongues too. I rarely speak in tongues.

iambren · Aug 12, 2013

On the day of Pentecost it says that they ALL spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came in them.

Not prescribed forever and yes, I've been filled to overflowing with tongues accompanying,at times still do, but I would not push this on everyone--especially with this verse!

Tongues are a requirement

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