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The rights he claims are what we used yo call common sense
You've never heard of common sense before?
What's with the "common sense" mantra in the last few months? I'm hearing it more and more often and yet the things people are claiming as common sense are anything but common.
Apparently not although all of my conservative friends use it
You've never heard of common sense before?
The rights he claims are what we used yo call common sense
TheQuietRiot said:There is so much more to be said about a person then which kind of politics they support.
rambot said:Oh sure I've heard of it. It's just a load of horse whallop. The thought that there is a relatively HUGE swath of values that 300 million agree on is utterly insane in my opinion.
And I wouldn't say I'm the only one:
Common sense is not so common.
- Voltaire
Common sense is the most widely shared commodity in the world, for every man is convinced that he is well supplied with it.
- René Descartes
It goes away because the conditions that made it necessary in the first place go away, not because of the beneovlent actions of the state.Market systems existed before that point too so you obviously miss the point that we should expect abuses like child labor even in an industrialized society that makes them completely unnecessary. We should expect the people who profit from such abuses to want to continue to abuse their workers.
What caused us to move away from such conditions?
What mechanism does the free market provide to get from there to here?
It was of course not the way such things were settled.
My point is that child labor is unnecessary in an industrialized society, and it doesn't just go away because of the free market.
Nonsense. How did those children get in those factories in the first place? Were they chained to the machines by the evil owners? No, children worked because children always worked. It was only the introduction of free markets that gave children the opportunity escape therkforce.Yes I understand exactly why they were employed, capitalization on despair.
Are there really that many industries out there today that would actually "benefit from child labor?' And isnt that really the responsibilityof the parents not the state, or do you just tview the two as interchangable?We have found a better way as a society. One you don't like, but it requires people who benefit from things like child labor to stop it. I can't and don't blame them for not immediately and dramatically altering their political and economic structure to meet the new complexity of society, it is exactly what we should expect to happen.
But if no ones rights are being violated and the agreement is between consenting adults, it is just none of your business, nor is it the business of the state.You misunderstand again.
I don't blame the industrialization I blame the exploitation of those who have little choice in a so called free market. The process of industrialization makes the problem more intense but it also gives us the ability to move beyond the sincere exploitation.
The industrialization is not the problem the way people treat each other is.
Hardly. You are the one who brought up the Gilded Age and child labor laws (that would be things in the distant past) not me.I am not. Your take on the issue is backward looking, mine forward looking.
Right. Do you want to know why leftists and statists hate capitalism so much? And no, it goes way beyond envy. For all of human history, the state has been the oppressor of mankind. Then along comes the moral concepts of individual rights, liberty and capitalism that frees man from the stagnation and poverty of tyrannical government. The statists cant have that so they attack the concept of innate rights, they ridicule liberty and they blame capitalism for the evils of the state. What we get now is the bizarre spectacle of the liberated turning to their old master to free them from their liberators. Not to worry though, this time the state is going to nice; you know, kind of the way the witch was nice to Hansel and Gretel. At first.I can look back on the last 150 years and see what happened and who made it happen and talk frankly about the conditions that existed before that and why they are bad.
It is a nonsense position to say that the way capitalism went forward in the guiled age was not the fault of the people running the show. Did it exasperate already existent problems? Yes. Do we still blame the market system and the forces at work for doing that? Yes.
Can we look to how these abuses were ended and learn how to build a better society?
Most certainly.
You know what your freedom is? If you are stuck in a bad job with long hours and poor pay, you are free to find emplyment elsewhere.That case is the argument for your position. We should all be "free" to work long hrs in squalid conditions for low pay.
What social srife are you talking about?I prefer modern governments. You're going to be waiting a while if you want me to expound on the virtues of feudalism. They are significant improvements on what came before. You want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
You blame all bad things on government, even the direct actions of people free to do what they wish. Who apparently inherited social strife and were completely unable to fix it using the mechanisms you wish us to implement.
What does this say about your preferred solutions going forward? You are going to inherit social strife, at what point should we expect the free market to sort it out? By what mechanism should we expect this all to work?
Wow, I never knew the mere mention of the phrase "common sense" would stir up so much commotion on the left. Either that or you just know how to get under their skin, Mach.It wasn't meant to be a point that conservatives use common sense and liberals don't. It meant that I associate more in conservative circles and can thus recognize their use of common sense. I don't associate with enough liberals to speak for them
It wasn't meant to be a point that conservatives use common sense and liberals don't. It meant that I associate more in conservative circles and can thus recognize their use of common sense. I don't associate with enough liberals to speak for them
It goes away because the conditions that made it necessary in the first place go away, not because of the beneovlent actions of the state.
Are there really that many industries out there today that would actually "benefit from child labor?' And isnt that really the responsibilityof the parents not the state, or do you just tview the two as interchangable?
But if no ones rights are being violated and the agreement is between consenting adults, it is just none of your business, nor is it the business of the state.
Hardly. You are the one who brought up the Gilded Age and child labor laws (that would be things in the distant past) not me.
What we get now is the bizarre spectacle of the liberated turning to their old master to free them from their liberators. Not to worry though, this time the state is going to nice; you know, kind of the way the witch was nice to Hansel and Gretel. At first.
It goes away because the conditions that made it necessary in the first place go away, not because of the beneovlent actions of the state.
Are there really that many industries out there today that would actually "benefit from child labor?'
Right. Do you want to know why leftists and statists hate capitalism so much? And no, it goes way beyond envy. For all of human history, the state has been the oppressor of mankind. Then along comes the moral concepts of individual rights, liberty and capitalism that frees man from the stagnation and poverty of tyrannical government. The statists cant have that so they attack the concept of innate rights, they ridicule liberty and they blame capitalism for the evils of the state. What we get now is the bizarre spectacle of the liberated turning to their old master to free them from their liberators. Not to worry though, this time the state is going to nice; you know, kind of the way the witch was nice to Hansel and Gretel. At first.
There is one thing all kids have in common--parents. Why is it you blame the free market for everything including the decisions of individuals to send their children into the labor force? Did it ever occur to you that economic conditions of the world dictated such behavior and not evil capitalists?And yet, this is not how it happened. The free market had to be dragged kicking and screaming every time.
And how would these kids get to work each morning? Their parents maybe? I have a 14 year old daughter who I want out in the evil capitalist workforce, but because of the eteral goodess of our benevolent state and people like you who support it, no can legally hire her. Even though she needs money and has a millio ideas of where she could spend it and is in need of real life work experience, leftist know-it-alls have made hiring her a criminal act.Are there any industries that would benefit from a class of people who they don't have to pay or treat well?
Farms it out to where? Places where children would otherwise be roaming through garbage dumps for their next meal. But industry is evil and exploitive. You cant be serious, yet you are.Industry today generally farms out child labor overseas where it can be kept from view more easily.
The states role is to secure individual rights, not enforce some arbitrary standard of goodness.It is not the states business to foster an environment where people succeed more and are treated better?
I despise mob rule as much as any other form of tyranny. Government should be answerable to the people, on that we agree, But following the mob to do injustice to the the individual or violating the rights of some to the benefit of others is just as much a moral crime as a king or emperor doing it.What you don't get is that what flipped the states roll was answering to the people. Before the widespread use of democracy what we had was the government as the protector of the wealthy aristocracy. What we got was people who used that government answerable to them to create a better relationship between each other through measures meant to improve conditions. That is something you seem to despise.
The abuses of capitalism that result in rights violations should be heandled by the state. That is what the state is there for. The abuses of the state, as you call them, are properly described as those actions that violate the rights of idividuals. Its just that you dont mind that happening.You can say people like me hate capitalism which is entirely untrue, I recognize the market forces for the good they have done and also as a new way to accumulate power. It's abuses should be checked just like we try to check the abuses of the state.
You know, I just got through saying that if government backed legal discrimination had taken place a government remedy was necessary, so I dont understand your point. But yes, the incompetent the lazy, and the parasites of society have nothing to gain whatsoever from a society based upon individual rights and liberty. They would actually have to take the burden of their own survival on their own backs and not the backs of others.
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