Toddlers in worship

There is a nursery for that... there are many rooms in God's house. Other people may feel it distracts from the "mood" that is being set during the service, and is it really fair to them?

ProdigalSeeker said:

There is a nursery for that... there are many rooms in God's house. Other people may feel it distracts from the "mood" that is being set during the service, and is it really fair to them?

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As the overused quote from ecclesiastes says, for everything its season, and for every activity under heaven its time. There is most definitely a time for children to play a very active role in worship but there is also a time when that is not appropriate. We need to get things in balance and in my opinion too many churches have been focussing on families to the exclusion of all others.

TomUK said:

As the overused quote from ecclesiastes says, for everything its season, and for every activity under heaven its time. There is most definitely a time for children to play a very active role in worship but there is also a time when that is not appropriate. We need to get things in balance and in my opinion too many churches have been focussing on families to the exclusion of all others.

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The almost complete lack of families in any of the other Anglican churches in our area, and all the Anglican churches I've previously been involved in, suggests to me that the imbalance is largely the other way.

We have three services on Sunday. The early Rite I service is attended mostly by the older people and is very solomn and formal. The second service is a Rite II with contemporary Christian Music and is less formal. Many families attend this service, and no one minds the toddlers at all. The third service is a Rite II with the Choir and organ. Again, it seems everyone understands the toddlers and makes allowances for them.

If we, as Anglicans, make it difficult or uncomfortable for young families with small children to attend our services, we are turning away the future of our Church.

ProdigalSeeker said:

There is a nursery for that... there are many rooms in God's house. Other people may feel it distracts from the "mood" that is being set during the service, and is it really fair to them?

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*Shocked mom mode on*

Excuse you, but while I understand that there are other people in this service, why should I be made to feel uneasy and take my child to a nursery and let her be cared for by someone I do not even know just because there are people like you who can't stand to have a little noise from a blessed little child in service. Do you think Jesus really cares if a child makes a noise in service?

My daughter has a much of a right to be in service as you and no one is going to tell me otherwise. Is it fair for my child to feel unwelcome when she is a bit older because "the nursery is for that"?

I'm sorry--but get over it. Children are loved by our Savior Jesus Christ--not just when they learn to sit in a pew. He didn't send them away when the disciples wanted to. He would not banish them to the nursery.

TomUK said:

As the overused quote from ecclesiastes says, for everything its season, and for every activity under heaven its time. There is most definitely a time for children to play a very active role in worship but there is also a time when that is not appropriate. We need to get things in balance and in my opinion too many churches have been focussing on families to the exclusion of all others.

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As a High Church Anglo-Catholic mom all I have to say to this is maybe some people need to lighten up. I understand the importance of the "mood" of worship, but seriously---people complain so much about the lack of youth and youth interest in our church its probably because people get ticked off that kids *gasp* make a noise during church! Maybe in your area there is a significant lack of focus on others but maybe you should go talk to someone about that because in my area there is a good balance for both families and others.

But also in my area (at least in my church) people aren't perfectionists and aren't going to die if a toddler is in worship..

longhair75 said:

If we, as Anglicans, make it difficult or uncomfortable for young families with small children to attend our services, we are turning away the future of our Church.

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EXACTLY!!!

I know if I or my family was made to feel unwelcome or uncomfortable to attend services it would make me seriously consider going somewhere else.

The youth are the future. We can't turn away those who may make noise or those who may not be appealing to us (spoken as a young mom with lots of piercings and tattoos)

We need to get things in balance and in my opinion too many churches have been focussing on families to the exclusion of all others.

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This is a very general comment, and likely false in more cases than not. I have experience in several parishes over two diocese, and I know of a few others who definitely have a problem with young family attendance because congregations refuse to tolerate or accomodate them. In our diocese, the problem is so severe that there is no diocesan position or representative to look out for the younger part of the church - no youth pastor, nothing.

At synod I read a lot of information about the demographics about TEC and th ACC, and the analysis wasn't good. At current growth/decline rates and given the age of the congregations, people are actucally predicting when "the last Anglican will turn out the lights," and I don't remember the exact year it stated, but it was just barely beyond what (many of) our expected lifetimes would be.

There is a nursery for that... there are many rooms in God's house.

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This attitude, by and large, has led people to simply not attend church at all. If I have to sit in a nursery with my son or daughter for an hour at church, there is absolutely no value or help in me attending at all. I can pray and read and watch them in the comfort of my home and request communion be brought to my house once and a while.

I find that the old-school churches (Anglican, Catholic, etc) are slow to respond to the change times. Nowadays both parents are often working, children are enrolled in far more "out of the house" activities, and as a result time as a family (for worship or otherwise) is far more limited. Not only is spending an hour and a half in a sequestered nursery completely useless, but these days it's a very precious hour and a half. It will either be time that could be spent enriching our family life, or maybe even time where we are already exhausted - and if you have the option of being exhausted while attending to your kids at home or in a nursery outside of your home, you'll take the home option.

And not all families demand free-run toddlers and babies all the time. A huge problem I have observed is a total lack of infrastructure. If we attend church 4 times a month, we'd likely have no problem leaving our kids in a nursery a couple of times a month if it was supervised, or if there was some form of church-infused childcare available. However, in our experience that is considered "pandering to young families at the expense of others," and the resources are not made available. We return to the expectation that the parents and toddlers can wait outside while everyone conducts their "worship" with "reverence."

The result in 3 churches I have attended long-term who have taken the above attitude is absolutely no young families (maybe I should say 2 churches...my current one there is still one family with toddlers left - mine).

They come, and within a month or two, they go. They know where and when they are not wanted.

TomUK said:

There is most definitely a time for children to play a very active role in worship but there is also a time when that is not appropriate.

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This is most certainly so*.

But "not playing a very active role" is different from "being absent or expelled or held up to unrealistic expectations". If it were, then it would be equally true to say that there are times when the dear gaga old lady with the ill-fitting dentures who mumbles constantly through most of the service should be absent, or for dear Father Molyneux with his chronic emphysema and that non-stop gurgling cough, to get himself out of the sanctuary. We don't shun and expel our adult members for the natural weaknesses of their condition.

And it is not the inappropriate very active participation of toddlers that I have encountered people rejecting. It is, rather, their very appropriate participation or their mere presence. People were horrified when as a communion minister carrying the elements to the front of the church and a two-year-old Rachel clinging to my skirts, I gave her the cruet of wine to carry. She stopped clinging and walked proudly and carefully to hand it to Father -- how awful! People were incensed when four-year-old Anne went to sit quietly on the steps of the side-altar during the sermon where she could watch the sunlight through the rose-window -- such disruption! And the annoyance of having to include two pennies in the offering count every Sunday: I heard about that one, too!


*oh drat -- Lutheranism must be catching. But them's the breaks when the local Lutheran church was the only one that put it's money where it's mouth was on the subject of welcoming children.

Inside Edge said:

They come, and within a month or two, they go. They know where and when they are not wanted.

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What we didn't know, was what level of discipline was appropriate in church for an infant, for a two-year-old, for a four-year-old: taking into acount both the reasonable expectations of the congregation and the abilities of the children. We had never disciplined children through a church service before, and we had firm paedagogical commitment to do the things and practice the discipline that would best contribute to our children's having a life-long love of weekly communal worship.

We should have been able to rely on older parents and the example of other children. What we found was that most of the behaviour expectations were unreasonable -- or more frequently that the only behaviour that the children should model was absence. And these were typically mature adults whose grown children also role-model their absence except on Easter and Christmas, and not often then. When we did get advice (other than "take them out") it was usually contradictory.

Most parents will accept loving, reasonable, consistent and informed advice -- but in Church we rarely get it.

We should have been able to rely on older parents and the example of other children. What we found was that most of the behaviour expectations were unreasonable -- or more frequently that the only behaviour that the children should model was absence. And these were typically mature adults whose grown children also role-model their absence except on Easter and Christmas, and not often then. When we did get advice (other than "take them out") it was usually contradictory...Most parents will accept loving, reasonable, consistent and informed advice -- but in Church we rarely get it.

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This is very much our experience as well, especially the bit about "contradictory," (but not at the expense of the rest of the post). A huge problem in our church is a near unanimous "will," which in reality is more like a "wish," to welcome and include children, especially babies and toddlers of which there are next to none. Yet whenever an idea or suggestion is made to accomodate potential young parents and their kids, it is met with apathy or even disdain by just under half the congregation. It leaves most parents with the feeling that the congregation likes the idea of more children and younger families, but has no energy or interest in doing or accepting the changes that need to take place in order to make those people feel a part of worship and the church.

SirTimothy

We Anglicans teach that those toddlers--right from the instant of their Baptism are part of the Body, and full members of the church,

They are absolutely full members... and there is appropriate behaviors, and inappropriate. Such as with family's, we teach (or should teach) our children to use "indoor voices"

Ash Weds we had a deacon's mass. The deacon's toddler was running all over the altar.

I would suggest this is inappropriate behavior.

longhair75

The early Rite I service is attended mostly by the older people and is very solomn and formal.

That’s fine. If toddlers are attending this early service and are being disruptive… see above

Mrs.Sidhe

Excuse me, sister? Parents with children that run around during the service are the ones in need of excusing. Which you have from me. Just please don’t do it again.

Do you think Jesus really cares if a child makes a noise in service?

So… all we need to be accountable to is Jesus? You don’t need to care about the environment other people share? And I need excusing?

Is it fair for my child to feel unwelcome when she is a bit older because "the nursery is for that"?

They are totally welcome… as long as they don’t cause a disturbance? Why should I try to listen to the sermon above a screaming child? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about YOU.

A little consideration is too much to ask for?

ProdigalSeeker said:

SirTimothy

We Anglicans teach that those toddlers--right from the instant of their Baptism are part of the Body, and full members of the church,

They are absolutely full members... and there is appropriate behaviors, and inappropriate. Such as with family's, we teach (or should teach) our children to use "indoor voices"

Ash Weds we had a deacon's mass. The deacon's toddler was running all over the altar.

I would suggest this is inappropriate behavior.

longhair75

The early Rite I service is attended mostly by the older people and is very solomn and formal.

That’s fine. If toddlers are attending this early service and are being disruptive… see above

Mrs.Sidhe

Excuse me, sister? Parents with children that run around during the service are the ones in need of excusing. Which you have from me. Just please don’t do it again.

Do you think Jesus really cares if a child makes a noise in service?

So… all we need to be accountable to is Jesus? You don’t need to care about the environment other people share? And I need excusing?

Is it fair for my child to feel unwelcome when she is a bit older because "the nursery is for that"?

They are totally welcome… as long as they don’t cause a disturbance? Why should I try to listen to the sermon above a screaming child? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about YOU.

A little consideration is too much to ask for?

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Well I can say is Jesus would not make children go sit in the nursery and wouldn't make them and their families feel unwelcome--unlike people like you. Lighten up.

And for your information, my toddler is well behaved in church--so don't project your irritation with other children onto MY CHILD--do we understand each other? I hope so, because I don't want to have to explain this to you again.

I took my child to Ash Wednesday service and there was a woman there who was irritated that I apparently brought my child. Period. I got "the look" when I walked in the church. What do you have to say about that? Am I supposed to be happy with that kind of attitude? Am I just supposed to leave my daughter in the nursery because an old woman wants to get ticked off? I don't think so.

Lucky for me people like her are in the minority in my church. Any cooing my daughter did or has done during church hasn't caused any problems and people seem to think its cute. Of course people in my church are actually WELCOMING of families and children. It's sad not more parishes do not have people who are like this--reverent--yet easy going and about to have a cow because a child got up or cooed.

As for your consideration how about you show some yourself. You ask parents to show you some how about you show people with children some consideration? Or is it all about you and your church experience?

ProdigalSeeker said:

They are totally welcome… as long as they don’t cause a disturbance? Why should I try to listen to the sermon above a screaming child? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about YOU.

A little consideration is too much to ask for?

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It is so easy to demonize children: they are powerless to stand up for themselves, and have such limited rights to defense.

To whom else would we feel so free to express a conditional welcome combined with only loveless bad examples?

Sick people are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to listen to the sermon above a hacking, coughing emphysemiac? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HIM?

Yes, it is all about him, because I have vowed to see Christ in him.


Fashionable young women are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to pray with running nose and blocked sinuses because she's decided to wear too much Chanel 23? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HER?


Yes, it is all about her, because I have vowed to see Christ in her.

Elderly people are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to focus on the readings when she's muttering comments about them under her breath because her senility has impaired her sense of the appropriate? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HER?

Yes, it is all about her, because I have vowed to see Christ in her.

Hearty young men are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to sing the hymn when their poor pitch is pulling the melody off? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HIM?


Yes, it is all about him, because I have vowed to see Christ in him.

It is easier to take umbrage about other people's behaviour than to work together as brothers and sisters to understand what we can do to make sure everyone's needs are met. It is easier to complain than to take responsibility for the problem. How much do you really know right now about child development and effective paedagogy? What do you think are appropriate expectations for toddlers, how do you think the congregation should be helping them meet those expectations, and are your expectations and ideas realistic in the light of a toddler's abilities and the congregation's responsibilities?

Perhaps there is a better way than complaining about TEAPOT, for us to make sure that we are meeting the needs of toddlers AND imperfect hymnists AND people with declining mental or physical health AND the person whose personal habits may be irritating to some random other person AND the stressed layman AND the abused woman AND the bereaved teen AND the barren couple.

Perhaps what we need is to be patient, to be kind: to strive not to envy or boast, not to be proud. Perhaps we should discipline ourselves not to be rude or self-seeking or easily angered; not to keep a record of wrongs. We need to forgo the delight with which we count off the evils we've suffered, and rejoice with the truth; protect one another, trust one another, hope together and persevere with one another.

Well I can say is Jesus would not make children go sit in the nursery and wouldn't make them and their families feel unwelcome--unlike people like you. Lighten up.

Jesus wouldn't make them sit in the nursery, unless they were bothering the concentration of others

And for your information, my toddler is well behaved in church--so don't project your irritation with other children onto MY CHILD--do we understand each other? I hope so, because I don't want to have to explain this to you again.

Listen, lady... you obviously don't understand the nature of this conversation as we are discussing children who are making distractions in the church. If you think that being distracting in the church is behaving... I feel even sorrier for you now, than I did ten minutes ago.

As for your consideration how about you show some yourself. You ask parents to show you some how about you show people with children some consideration? Or is it all about you and your church experience?

My actions are not distracting.

It is so easy to demonize children: they are powerless to stand up for themselves, and have such limited rights to defense.

So, you argument is that being a child is a traumatic disease? That's wonderful thinking. Hey Sidhe, your kid is a disease.

So the consensus here is the parent's right to have a screaming child in church trumps other's to concentrate on the service. I'm glad I don't attend the same services you do.

ProdigalSeeker said:

[Antiqua][/FONT]
So, you argument is that being a child is a traumatic disease? That's wonderful thinking. Hey Sidhe, your kid is a disease.

So the consensus here is the parent's right to have a screaming child in church trumps other's to concentrate on the service. I'm glad I don't attend the same services you do.

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Yeah, me too.

pmcleanj said:

It is so easy to demonize children: they are powerless to stand up for themselves, and have such limited rights to defense.

To whom else would we feel so free to express a conditional welcome combined with only loveless bad examples?

Sick people are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to listen to the sermon above a hacking, coughing emphysemiac? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HIM?

Yes, it is all about him, because I have vowed to see Christ in him.


Fashionable young women are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to pray with running nose and blocked sinuses because she's decided to wear too much Chanel 23? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HER?


Yes, it is all about her, because I have vowed to see Christ in her.

Elderly people are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to focus on the readings when she's muttering comments about them under her breath because her senility has impaired her sense of the appropriate? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HER?

Yes, it is all about her, because I have vowed to see Christ in her.

Hearty young men are welcome in church as long as they don't cause a disturbance. Why should I try to sing the hymn when their poor pitch is pulling the melody off? Is that fair to me and the others? Or is it all about HIM?


Yes, it is all about him, because I have vowed to see Christ in him.

It is easier to take umbrage about other people's behaviour than to work together as brothers and sisters to understand what we can do to make sure everyone's needs are met. It is easier to complain than to take responsibility for the problem. How much do you really know right now about child development and effective paedagogy? What do you think are appropriate expectations for toddlers, how do you think the congregation should be helping them meet those expectations, and are your expectations and ideas realistic in the light of a toddler's abilities and the congregation's responsibilities?

Perhaps there is a better way than complaining about TEAPOT, for us to make sure that we are meeting the needs of toddlers AND imperfect hymnists AND people with declining mental or physical health AND the person whose personal habits may be irritating to some random other person AND the stressed layman AND the abused woman AND the bereaved teen AND the barren couple.

Perhaps what we need is to be patient, to be kind: to strive not to envy or boast, not to be proud. Perhaps we should discipline ourselves not to be rude or self-seeking or easily angered; not to keep a record of wrongs. We need to forgo the delight with which we count off the evils we've suffered, and rejoice with the truth; protect one another, trust one another, hope together and persevere with one another.

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My priest says that he expects everyone in church to "act their age". So when the elderly woman who can't hear very well shouts at the top of her lungs "WHAT DID HE SAY?" when the priest pronounces the epiclesis during communion, we don't get upset with her.