To Tithe or not to Tithe, That is the question?

Pete is a wise man again. The key is focus. Focus on all the wonderful things you have, and all the wonderful promises in the Word and you will be a VERY HAPPY GIVER.

Focus on what you don't have, and greed and envy and you will NEVER be a happy giver.

JEBrady said:

I think what this passage says is pretty clear. It's obvious that it doesn't mean to give something you don't actually possess- such as give a million dollars when you don't own a million dollars. It very clearly says not to give what you can't afford to give. The word afford means, "to manage to bear without serious detriment", which is exactly what is being said in this passage. You don't give to the point where now you yourself have a financial burden.

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Generally speaking, I would say this is true.

But I can't help but wonder about the widow's mite. That woman literally gave EVERYTHING that she had, and Jesus commended her for it. I am all but confident that the people in the temple lived a better life than the woman who gave all that she had. So then I wonder, why Jesus would commend this widow for doing something that so many people today are so vehemently against?

JEBrady said:

Your point about giving grudgingly is a different principle. What I can afford to give is based on what I have, not on what someone else has.

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This is true. However, what you can "afford" is quite a subjective term as I illustrated in my last post, and why I believe it is so very important for us to determine in our heart what we give as God leads us. IOW, there most certainly is a time and place for sacrificial giving, but per many people in this thread, that time is NEVER. While I would agree that sacrificial giving should not be the norm, I would also say that there is a time for it, and this discussion shuts out any and all possibility that God would ask us to do this. For example;

JEBrady said:

There is, however, something to be said about the purpose of the giving in the specific biblical case. I wouldn't give someone with a million-dollar house anything because he doesn't have a financial need.

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This is an absolute statement that I would not make, because what if God tells you to give someone with a million-dollar house something? Is that beyond the realm of possibility? I don't think it is.

That is why I believe it is important for us to give where and when God leads us, regardless of what we think about it. It's not about supporting millionaires and making ourselves destitute. It's about saying to God, all that I have is Yours, and I will obey what you tell me to do in my giving, even if it makes no sense to my natural mind.

JEBrady said:

The giving in the biblical passage was to meet a lack on the part of other saints who had fallen on hard times. Those with a lot don't have too much and those with little don't have too little because the more wealthy share with the ones who need. It wouldn't make sense to give to the point where now I don't have enough to get by. Then I would need for someone to give to me!

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I agree. It doesn't make sense. But sometimes, God may ask us to do things that simply don't make sense to us.

All I'm trying to say is that we should be Spirit-led in our giving, no matter where, when or how much He tells us to give, regardless of what we think we can "afford".

It may surprise you to know that I don't believe tithing is a requirement for people today, but I do believe in generous giving, and I think that far too often, people use the "I can't afford that" excuse to justify their stinginess.

So then I wonder, why Jesus would commend this widow for doing something that so many people today are so vehemently against?

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Who is vehemently against it? She brought her money to the temple as required by the law, it is not the same as bringing your money to a church. To somehow speak as if they are one and the same is what I'm against, just not vehemently. So again I ask, who is vehemently against it?

Svt4Him said:

Who is vehemently against it? She brought her money to the temple as required by the law, it is not the same as bringing your money to a church. To somehow speak as if they are one and the same is what I'm against, just not vehemently. So again I ask, who is vehemently against it?

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We are the temple so are we supposed to give to ourselves? I think not because theyh flesh is to strong in mmany, are we to support Gods work, yes. Hopwever, if you cant cheerfully give then please dont as God doesnt need anything from us as He owns it all anyway but He sure does appreciate those who show their love and devotion in this way.

probinson said:

Generally speaking, I would say this is true.

But I can't help but wonder about the widow's mite. That woman literally gave EVERYTHING that she had, and Jesus commended her for it. I am all but confident that the people in the temple lived a better life than the woman who gave all that she had. So then I wonder, why Jesus would commend this widow for doing something that so many people today are so vehemently against?



This is true. However, what you can "afford" is quite a subjective term as I illustrated in my last post, and why I believe it is so very important for us to determine in our heart what we give as God leads us. IOW, there most certainly is a time and place for sacrificial giving, but per many people in this thread, that time is NEVER. While I would agree that sacrificial giving should not be the norm, I would also say that there is a time for it, and this discussion shuts out any and all possibility that God would ask us to do this. For example;



This is an absolute statement that I would not make, because what if God tells you to give someone with a million-dollar house something? Is that beyond the realm of possibility? I don't think it is.

That is why I believe it is important for us to give where and when God leads us, regardless of what we think about it. It's not about supporting millionaires and making ourselves destitute. It's about saying to God, all that I have is Yours, and I will obey what you tell me to do in my giving, even if it makes no sense to my natural mind.



I agree. It doesn't make sense. But sometimes, God may ask us to do things that simply don't make sense to us.

All I'm trying to say is that we should be Spirit-led in our giving, no matter where, when or how much He tells us to give, regardless of what we think we can "afford".

It may surprise you to know that I don't believe tithing is a requirement for people today, but I do believe in generous giving, and I think that far too often, people use the "I can't afford that" excuse to justify their stinginess.

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My only concern is that there are many leaders who attempt to usurp the role of the Holy Spirit in the minds and hearts of sincere believers and use manipulation and bibery and fear to get them to give. One of the ways is by insisting that tithing is mandatory for new testament saints. Other teach the hundred fold return principal, the seed faith principal and the promise of prosperity (often linked only loosely to spiritual prosperity but mostly on material wealth gain -at least this is true in the giving testimonies I have heard)
I believe in giving as led by the Lord and we really are on the hook for 100% as someone mentioned in an earlier post. But God leads with wisdom and with gentle compassion growing our faith as we rest in His grace.

Svt4Him said:

Who is vehemently against it? She brought her money to the temple as required by the law, it is not the same as bringing your money to a church. To somehow speak as if they are one and the same is what I'm against, just not vehemently. So again I ask, who is vehemently against it?

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It doesn't really matter if she took her money to the local dance hall.

The point is not where she gave her money, but the fact that she gave ALL of her money to someone who clearly had far more than she did. That is what some people in this thread are so staunchly advocating against.

People in this thread are suggesting that you should never put yourself in a bind with your giving. And again, generally speaking, I would tend to agree with that. But there certainly are times when God is going to ask us to step out in faith, doing things we think we can't "afford", and when we do so with the right heart and the right motive, we can be assured that He will take care of us completely, no matter what the natural circumstances may appear like.

I dunno. The absolute finality with which some people are saying you should NEVER do such and such just seems to put God in a box. IMO.

Give an amount you can be joyful about! If someone were to give me a gift, but really didn't want to, then I wouldn't really want their gift anyway. If someone was to give me a gift, I would want it to be from their heart because they wanted to. I believe from Scripture that God is the same way. Whatever we give, He wants us to give it because we want to. So the best way to start is finding a way in which you can give. If you can't give a lot of money, then maybe your time, or maybe there's something you're good at, like a trade that can benefit people.

I know people who just make up little instant soup packets and make care boxes with soap and other items that cost very little money and give them to people in need. It may not be a lot, but I'll bet for the people who need them, it is a very great gift.

Give from the heart - it's the only giving that really matters in the echos of eternity.

I have a friend whose husband is not a believer. He doesn't want her giving money to the church. But, he doesn't care is she buys things for the church...like food for special occasions, craft materials for VBS, etc.

There are many who are in the same situation, one spouse is not a believer, and they have give how they can and not cause problems in their marriage. Espcially if it's the wife who is the believer and she stays home with the kids while the husband works. God understands this.

Give your time to others if you can't give financially. Watch for sales at grocery stores and pick up a few extra items for someone you know, or a food bank or charity. Give an older person a ride to church. There are so many ways we can give to others.

As for tithing, I have tithed and not tithed. During both, I have had more than I needed for our needs and not enough to meet them.
I have decided to give as I feel led by the Holy Spirit to give, whether it's 10% or not...maybe less or maybe more.
But more importantly I have realized I can't give out of 'guilt' or because of pressure from others. I do want to be a cheerful giver. And I agree with Pete that there may be times that God asks us to give more than we think we 'can afford'. When that is asked of me, I have to believe, have faith, that my needs will be taken care of. I don't believe God would ask me to give an amount like that without providing for my needs in another way. If I didn't believe that, or have faith that He would provide, I would not be the cheerful giver God wants us to be. I would either not give, and miss out on a blessing from Him, or grumble and complain, or worry. None of those is what God wants in our giving.

psalms 91 said:

We are the temple so are we supposed to give to ourselves? I think not because theyh flesh is to strong in mmany, are we to support Gods work, yes. Hopwever, if you cant cheerfully give then please dont as God doesnt need anything from us as He owns it all anyway but He sure does appreciate those who show their love and devotion in this way.

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Nope you are not, if you're under the OT tithe. In that system, you take the tithe to the temple then eat it yourself. Weird eh? And it's no less devotion to help someone not in the 'church' that someone who is in the 'church' or the 'church'.

I think it's important to differentiate between being selfish, or following a tradition that is not found in scripture. The Bible is clear, the just live by faith, and where our treasure is our hearts are as well. If God says to give when it hurts, give. If God says to help a widow, help. But when the church says you have to tithe to be blessed, or even that the tithe is the minimum God expects you to give to the church, then they've moved out of their realm of authority and are binding people. My church says give to them first before helping. God says take care of my family (two widows) otherwise I'm worse than an unbeliever, then I have to follow God and help my family before I help others. Now if God says to help others as well, then I certainly should. Now should I give to the church if I am in debt or in danger of defaulting? Well, God says if you make a pledge, fulfill it. Does that mean we go around giving pledges so we don't have to tithe? That's similar to asking if we continue to sin so grace abounds, we don't trample the gifts we're given.

probinson said:

Generally speaking, I would say this is true.

But I can't help but wonder about the widow's mite. That woman literally gave EVERYTHING that she had, and Jesus commended her for it. I am all but confident that the people in the temple lived a better life than the woman who gave all that she had. So then I wonder, why Jesus would commend this widow for doing something that so many people today are so vehemently against?



This is true. However, what you can "afford" is quite a subjective term as I illustrated in my last post, and why I believe it is so very important for us to determine in our heart what we give as God leads us. IOW, there most certainly is a time and place for sacrificial giving, but per many people in this thread, that time is NEVER. While I would agree that sacrificial giving should not be the norm, I would also say that there is a time for it, and this discussion shuts out any and all possibility that God would ask us to do this. For example;



This is an absolute statement that I would not make, because what if God tells you to give someone with a million-dollar house something? Is that beyond the realm of possibility? I don't think it is.

That is why I believe it is important for us to give where and when God leads us, regardless of what we think about it. It's not about supporting millionaires and making ourselves destitute. It's about saying to God, all that I have is Yours, and I will obey what you tell me to do in my giving, even if it makes no sense to my natural mind.



I agree. It doesn't make sense. But sometimes, God may ask us to do things that simply don't make sense to us.

All I'm trying to say is that we should be Spirit-led in our giving, no matter where, when or how much He tells us to give, regardless of what we think we can "afford".

It may surprise you to know that I don't believe tithing is a requirement for people today, but I do believe in generous giving, and I think that far too often, people use the "I can't afford that" excuse to justify their stinginess.

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There are general principles in the word of God that frame His wisdom and way for us to live. That doesn't mean we don't allow the Spirit to lead us in doing something that according to those general principles we might not have done otherwise. The Lord might have me to give something to a millionaire some day, and it might be something specific that means something to that person that I have no way to know. So I could argue with God about it (the way Ananias argued about laying hands on Paul) or I could just be obedient. We live by the general principles unless we're given more specific direction.

Really, my initial post about this was simply to point out that Paul did teach to give according to what you can afford. By doing so, he wasn't making an excuse to be stingy. He was encouraging a people who were givers to understand that he didn't mean they should overgive to the point where they couldn't afford it. That doesn't abrogate other principles that apply to how we go about deciding what to give and where. Sacrificial giving, to my understanding, is giving something that is going to cause me to give up something else that I now can't afford because I just gave the money away I would have used for it. I think this should be happening more often than not, since a lot of what we might give up isn't essential. Even fasting so that someone else can eat is biblical. Not fasting to death- that would be something I can't afford to do, but sometimes we can afford to give a whole lot more than what we do. The bible says that with food and clothing we will be satisfied. It doesn't say, "food, clothing and an iPod", if you catch my drift.

Just to give an example, once when I was at a fundraiser for a teen challenge the Spirit told me to give them an amount equal to my entire paycheck. I pretty much lived from paycheck to paycheck, and nearly swallowed my tongue when He said that. I had just been paid. I commiserated about it a bit, but was obedient. I didn't know how I was going to manage, but it all worked out and I didn't miss a meal or a bill because of it. I don't normally do that, though, but this time I had instructions from God to do it. Doing this under normal circumstances without a word from God could be considered foolish, however, because we have to use common sense in our giving.

That's what giving what you have and not what you don't have is about, IMO.

JEBrady said:

Just to give an example, once when I was at a fundraiser for a teen challenge the Spirit told me to give them an amount equal to my entire paycheck. I pretty much lived from paycheck to paycheck, and nearly swallowed my tongue when He said that. I had just been paid. I commiserated about it a bit, but was obedient. I didn't know how I was going to manage, but it all worked out and I didn't miss a meal or a bill because of it. I don't normally do that, though, but this time I had instructions from God to do it. Doing this under normal circumstances without a word from God could be considered foolish, however, because we have to use common sense in our giving.

That's what giving what you have and not what you don't have is about, IMO.

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God doesn't only want 10% of our heart.
He wants us to be willing to give it all if he should ask.

Here is an interesting article from Encyclopedia Britannica:

"Tithes in Christendom- The earliest authentic example of anything like a law of the State enforcing payment appears to occur in the capitularies [ecclesiasticals] of Charlemagne at the end of the 8th or beginning of the 9th century. Tithes were by enactment to be applied to the maintenance of the bishop, clergy, the poor, and the fabric of the church. In the course of time the principle of payment of tithes was extended FAR BEYOND its original intention. Thus they became transferable to laymen and saleable like ordinary property, in spite of the injunctions of the third Lateran Council; and they became payable OUT OF SOURCES OF INCOME [not just farming and herding, but other trades and occupations and salaries paid in the form of money] NOT ORIGINALLY TITHABLE."

(1963, VOLUME 22, PAGE 253, 'TITHES')

The Catholic Church says,

In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Corinthians 9:13), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience. The earliest positive legislation on the subject seems to be contained in the letter of the bishops assembled at Tours in 567 and the canons of the Council of Maçon in 585. In course of time, we find the payment of tithes made obligatory by ecclesiastical enactments in all the countries of christendom. . . . At first, the tithe was payable to the bishop, but later the right passed by common law to parish priests. Abuses soon crept in. The right to receive tithes was granted to princes and nobles, even hereditarily, by ecclesiastics in return for protection or eminent services, and this species of impropriation became so intolerable that the Third Council of Lateran (1179) decreed that no alienation of tithes to laymen was permissible without the consent of the pope. In the time of Gregory VIII, a so-called Saladin tithe was instituted, which was payable by all who did not take part personally in the crusade to recover the Holy Land. At the present time, in most countries where some species of tithes still exist, as in England (for the Established Church), in Austria, and Germany, the payment has been changed into a rent-charge. In English-speaking countries generally, as far as Catholics are concerned, the clergy receive no tithes.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Tithes

I am sure that God would not want anything from split hairs and squeaking as it comes out. Since He owns it all He really doesnt need us to give anything but He does ask that we love Him enough to do it. Not mans way or what man says but if you are truly in tune the Holy Spirit will tell you where the good ground is to give if you want to listen but so many say they dont hear God, maybe thats why all the confusion about so much, they dont hear what God says.

In the Christian Church, as those who serve the altar should live by the altar (1 Corinthians 9:13), provision of some kind had necessarily to be made for the sacred ministers. In the beginning this was supplied by the spontaneous offerings of the faithful. In the course of time, however, as the Church expanded and various institutions arose, it became necessary to make laws which would insure the proper and permanent support of the clergy. The payment of tithes was adopted from the Old Law, and early writers speak of it as a divine ordinance and an obligation of conscience.

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This idea from Catholicism has been brought into groups that are even the most anti-catholic because it works . They couldn't make it a membership fee - had to make it a religious obligation and tie the Law into it for this instance .