To all Sabbatarians

Sophia7 · Mar 25, 2006

BigChrisfilm said:
Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released [Abolished: Strongs #2673 same as Eph 2:15] from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. But now we have been released [Abolished: Strongs #2673 same as Eph 2:15] from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet."" (Romans 7:1-7)

Notice the part of your quote that I highlighted in green above. As Christians, we serve God, and we should still be obedient to Him. I haven't heard anyone yet say that we should just go out and do whatever we want because we are not under law. Most people still believe that if we do certain things, we are sinning. What has changed is our motivation for obedience and our focus on God's power to keep us from falling rather than on our own efforts. We serve Him in the Spirit, not as a legalistic way of trying to earn salvation.

Also, here are the preceding verses, from Romans 6:

Romans 6:11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The point here is not that we are no longer to follow the law; the point is that we are not to depend on it for salvation. If we try to gain salvation by our good works, the law condemns us because we can't do it. We are already doomed because we have all sinned. The law stands against us as an accuser. We cannot redeem ourselves from the slavery of sin.

When we accept Christ, the law no longer condemns us because He has set us free by His grace. Paul says that we are now slaves to righteousness. We have a new master now--Jesus--who makes us righteous and holy. We have a choice: we can try to do all the right things on our own, which is impossible, and remain slaves to sin while the law condemns us. That is what it means to be under law. Or we can depend on God's grace for our salvation. That is what it means to be under grace. Either way, we are still supposed to keep the law. Paul says that the law is spiritual, holy, righteous, and good. The difference is that if we are under grace, we keep the law by grace. We do not keep it in order to be saved because it cannot justify anyone. We keep the law through the Spirit of God living in us:

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

5 Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6 The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7 the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8 Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14 because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Here is one more passage, from Galatians, which is also often used to say that we don't have to keep the law anymore:

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15 If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Galatians 6:1 Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. 2 Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

If you read this passage carefully, does it really sound as if the law has been done away with? On the contrary, there is still sin, and there is still a law, which can be summed up here by the command to love our neighbors as ourselves and elsewhere by Jesus' statement that we should love the Lord our God with all our hearts, all our minds, and all our souls. These are the principles upon which all of the commandments are based. These are the principles that are written on our hearts when we trust God for our salvation and have His Spirit living in us. Paul's and Jesus' summaries of these principles, however, do not negate the specific applications that are given in other parts of the Bible. Even in this passage, Paul lists some specific sins that go against God's law and that Christians should avoid (vss. 19-21). Thus, there are still specific requirements that we need to follow as an expression of our faith in Christ. The law has not been abolished; rather, we have been delivered from its condemnation and from the power of sin. We are under grace, so we keep the law by grace.

BigChrisfilm · Mar 26, 2006

We are not to worry about weither we are to follow the 10 commandments, we are to be in christ, and when we are, the holy spirit guides us to do good, but if we don't that is a sin, now, the thing that I am still learning is when we accept christ, are we made perfect, are we able to complete the 10 commandments, no, I don't believe so, I think that we know what we should do, and we should try and do it, but christ has covered all of our sins with his blood, are we to not try, NO, of course not, but if we fail are we to be in hell, NO, of course not, we are children of god, and are sinners, do we no longer be considered sinners once we come to christ?

ethereous · Mar 26, 2006

The Sabbath is on Sunday anyway, atleast this year. We should follow the solar calendar which starts on the vernal equinox. The Sabbath should start 7 days from the 1st of the year then which is on a Sunday.

To follow the Sabbath on the Saturday is just outright wrong. Also note the jews use a Lunar calendar which is also wrong.

Edited: Fixed something.

BigChrisfilm · Mar 26, 2006

Where can I find a solar calendar, and btw, why should we use a solar calendar?

ethereous · Mar 26, 2006

BigChrisfilm said:
Where can I find a solar calendar, and btw, why should we use a solar calendar?

Here I will quote from Solar Sanity versus Lunar Lunacy written by Pastor Peters.

Observe the people who today try to set their
feast days by the moon and you will observe that one
group will have their feast on certain dates that differ
from another group who keep the same feast. They
can’t agree on the exact dates. Someone is confused
and the average person that reads of the lunar calculation
of those who promote the lunar calendar (and calculations
from it) becomes very confused. Remember,
God is not the author of confusion (I Corinthians
14:33). Concerning the lunar calendar, the Encyclopedia
Britannica, Eleventh Edition, says, “It is therefore
so obviously ill-adapted to the computation of time,
that, excepting the modern Jews and Mohammedans,
almost all nations who have regulated their months by
the moon have employed some method of intercalculation by means of which the beginning of the year is retained at nearly the same fixed place in the
season.” Because it is ill-adapted for
computation of time, God’s people did not calculate
time by it, including the time or the dates of the feasts.
That is not to say the moon isn’t useful in other ways –
farmer’s planting by the sign of the moon, ranchers
branding and castrating cattle by the sign of the moon,
or the navy using the moon (which affects tides) in
their dry docking of ships; but, the moon is not for calculating times of the feasts.
The word “moon” in the King James Bible in the Pentateuch is only found four times: Genesis 37:9,
Deuteronomy 4:19, Deuteronomy 17:3, and Deuteronomy 33:14. None of these passages have to do with calculating times. The Pentateuch (the first five books of the Bible, which contain the law) did not teach and does not teach God’s people to use the moon to calculate time. The sun was a light put in the heavens for signs, seasons, days, and years. There will be some,
especially of the Judaizing, deceiving snakes in our
midst who try to confuse you; they will take exception
to this statement and immediately direct you to Genesis
1:14-16. So, let’s first look at that passage. When we
do, we will find that the translators have confused us a
bit:
14And God said, let there be lights in the firmament
of the heaven to divide the day from the night;
and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for
days, and years; 15and let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth; and it was so. 16And God made two great lights; the
greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule
the night; He made the stars also. 17And God set them
in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18and to rule over the day and over the night and to divide the light from the darkness; and God saw that it was good. – Genesis 1:14-18 KJV.

The Judaizers have confused people into believing
this passage is speaking of the sun and the
moon and the translators have not helped in the matter.
So let’s first look to see what the passage is talking
about. It is talking about “lights in the firmament of the
heaven;” lights to give light upon the earth (Verse 15),
but is the moon included in these lights? Technically,
the moon does not give light. It only reflects light. The
lights the Bible is talking about are divided into two
categories and each are identified; the greater light to
rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. The
two lights are the sun and the stars – the moon is not
mentioned here at all.
There are two witnesses to the truth of this statement. The first witness is seen in the more correct
translation of Verse 16:
“And God made two great lights; the greater
light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the
night: he made the stars also.” – Genesis 1:16 KJV.

Notice that the words “he made” are in italics,
which means those words were not in the original text
but were added by the translators. There is another
word that does not appear in the Bible text, though it is
not in italics (and I do not know why it is not) and that
word is “also”. This fact can be established by going
to Strong’s Concordance and looking up the word.
When this is done one finds there is no number next to
the word. The index of Strong’s Concordance that instructs
one on how to use the book states that if there is
no number there then that means the word did not appear
in the original text. (My question is, if it was not
in there then why was it not italicized as was “he
made”)?

Since the words “he made” and “also” are not
in the text let’s read the verse without them. “And God
made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day,
and the lesser light to rule the night: the stars.” Notice
“the stars” follows the colon ).

One dictionary’s definition of a colon is that
the colon ) is used to separate clauses when the second expands the first. So the words “the stars” expand the meaning of “greater and lesser lights.” Another dictionary states that the phrase following the colon is tied by the colon to the subject prior to the colon. This means the lesser and greater lights are simply the stars, not the moon. Remember, the sun is the closest star to the earth and the stars are suns of other solar systems. The second witness to the truth of the statement that the two lights of Genesis 1:16 is the sun and the stars and not the moon is found in the statement that the greater light was to “rule the day” and the lesser to “rule the night” and that they were to “divide the light from the darkness”. This is true of the sun and stars, but not of the moon. Remember, the sun is the closest star to the earth and the stars are suns of other solar systems.

The second witness to the truth of the statement
that the two lights of Genesis 1:16 is the sun and the
stars and not the moon is found in the statement that the
greater light was to “rule the day” and the lesser to
“rule the night” and that they were to “divide the light
from the darkness”. This is true of the sun and stars,
but not of the moon. There are days when the moon
can be seen in the night portion of a day and other days
when it can be seen in the light portion of a day. In
other words, there are days when the sun and the moon
can be seen at the same time in the daytime sky, but
one can never see the stars in the sky with the sun.

The example I saw given on a dated video presentation showed how the Farmer’s Almanac gives the time of sun rises and sun sets and the time of moon rises and moon sets. The example was that on 7/10/91, the moon rose at 5:02 a.m. and set at 8:11 p.m. On 7/11/91, it rose at 6:14 and set at 9:03. On 7/12/91, it rose at 7:30 and set at 9:47. This means that at midnight on July 10, 1991, there was no moon in the sky and on July 11, 1991, the moon actually rose twentytwo minutes before the sun. That day, both the sun and the moon traveled across the sky together. This is not an unusual event. No, the moon does not rule night or day and does not divide the light from the darkness. The moon is not and was not part of the lights established for signs, seasons, days, or years and thus should never be used to establish days and dates.

There is alot more in the book. I can send you the link to download it if you wish. As it is free online but I don't think people want linked to it as it is written by a Christian Identist.

cygnusx1 · Mar 26, 2006

Question:"What day is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? Do Christians have to observe the Sabbath day?"

Answer: It is often claimed that "God instituted the Sabbath in Eden" because of the connection between the Sabbath and creation in Exodus 20:11. Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath-keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.
The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine'" (Exodus 19:35).
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed (Exodus 31:1617).
In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 1214, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15).
Notice the word therefore. God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance. Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deuteronomy 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:3235).
An examination of New Testament passages shows us four important points: 1) Whenever Christ appears in His resurrected form and the day is mentioned, it is always the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1, 9, 10; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1, 13, 15; John 20:19, 26). 2) The only time the Sabbath is mentioned from Acts through Revelation it is for evangelistic purposes to the Jews and the setting is usually in a synagogue (Acts chapters 1318). Paul wrote, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews" (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul did not go to the synagogue to fellowship with and edify the saints, but to convict and save the lost. 3) Once Paul states "from now on I will go to the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6), the Sabbath is never again mentioned. And 4) instead of suggesting adherence to the Sabbath day, the remainder of the New Testament implies the opposite (including the one exception to point 3 above, found in Colossians 2:16).
Looking more closely at point 4 above will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday "Christian Sabbath" is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:1617). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us" (Colossians 2:14).
This idea is repeated more than once in the New Testament: "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it" (Romans 14:56a). "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years" (Galatians 4:910).
But some claim that a mandate by Constantine in A.D. 321 "changed" the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. On what day did the early church meet for worship? Scripture never mentions any Sabbath (Saturday) gatherings by believers for fellowship or worship. However, there are clear passages that mention the first day of the week. For instance, Acts 20:7 states that "on the first day of the week the disciples came together to break bread." In 1 Corinthians 16:2 Paul urges the Corinthian believers "on the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper." Since Paul designates this offering as "service" in 2 Corinthians 9:12, this collection must have been linked with the Sunday worship service of the Christian assembly. Historically Sunday, not Saturday, was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.
The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14). Sabbath keeping is not required of the Christianbe it Saturday or Sunday. The first day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10) celebrates the New Creation, with Christ as our resurrected Head. We are not obligated to follow the Mosaic Sabbathresting, but are now free to follow the risen Christserving. The Apostle Paul said that each individual Christian should decide whether to observe a Sabbath rest, One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind (Romans 14:5). We are to worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

Sophia7 · Mar 26, 2006

cygnusx1 said:
Question:"What day is the Sabbath, Saturday or Sunday? Do Christians have to observe the Sabbath day?"

cygnusx1 said:
Answer: It is often claimed that "God instituted the Sabbath in Eden" because of the connection between the Sabbath and creation in Exodus 20:11. Although God's rest on the seventh day (Genesis 2:3) did foreshadow a future Sabbath law, there is no biblical record of the Sabbath before the children of Israel left the land of Egypt. Nowhere in Scripture is there any hint that Sabbath-keeping was practiced from Adam to Moses.
The Word of God makes it quite clear that Sabbath observance was a special sign between God and Israel: "And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying, "Thus you shall say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel: 'You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles' wings and brought you to Myself. Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine'" (Exodus 19:35).
Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed (Exodus 31:1617).
In Deuteronomy 5, Moses restates the ten commandments to the next generation of Israelites. Here, after commanding Sabbath observance in verses 1214, Moses gives the reason the Sabbath was given to the nation Israel: "And remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day" (Deuteronomy 5:15).
Notice the word therefore. God's intent for giving the Sabbath to Israel was not that they would remember creation, but that they would remember their Egyptian slavery and the Lord's deliverance.

On the contrary, the Sabbath was a reminder of both the Lord's creation and the Lord's deliverance. One reason did not negate the other just because one was mentioned in one place and one in another. And the fact that the Sabbath was not mentioned from creation to Exodus does not prove that it was not being kept that whole time although it is possible that it, along with many other principles of God's law, had been neglected during the years of slavery in Egypt--hence the need for the specifically written commandments spelled out by God.

cygnusx1 said:
Note the requirements for Sabbath-keeping: A person placed under that Sabbath law could not leave his home on the Sabbath (Exodus 16:29), he could not build a fire (Exodus 35:3), and he could not cause anyone else to work (Deuteronomy 5:14). A person breaking the Sabbath law was to be put to death (Exodus 31:15; Numbers 15:3235).

As Christians (at least in the United States), we no longer execute people for committing adultery (which I believe we have discussed in another thread) or worshiping other gods or stealing or bearing false witness or dishonoring their parents. Does that mean that these things are now acceptable to God? The Sabbath is the only one of the ten commandments that people really want to ignore.

Jesus kept the Sabbath, and He kept it as a day to minister to others, not as a day of legalistic requirements put upon Him by rabbinic tradition. Why did Jesus go to so much effort to reeducate the Pharisees on the true meaning of the Sabbath if suddenly it were to be abolished after His resurrection?

cygnusx1 said:
An examination of New Testament passages shows us four important points: 1) Whenever Christ appears in His resurrected form and the day is mentioned, it is always the first day of the week (Matthew 28:1, 9, 10; Mark 16:9; Luke 24:1, 13, 15; John 20:19, 26).

That's because He was resurrected on the first day of the week. That does not do away with the Sabbath. In fact, Jesus rested in the grave on the Sabbath. And you yourself said (or quoted) that Sunday has no special significance as a new "Christian Sabbath."

In addition, Jesus' resurrection fulfilled the typological aspect of the wavesheaf or firstfruits offering (see Leviticus 23:9-21), which was done on the first day of the week. That's why the Bible makes such a point of mentioning the day of the week. And that's why Paul describes Jesus as the firstfruits of the dead because of His resurrection, which guarantees our resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

cygnusx1 said:
2) The only time the Sabbath is mentioned from Acts through Revelation it is for evangelistic purposes to the Jews and the setting is usually in a synagogue (Acts chapters 1318). Paul wrote, "to the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might win Jews" (1 Corinthians 9:20). Paul did not go to the synagogue to fellowship with and edify the saints, but to convict and save the lost.

Well, then you have a problem with your theory because Paul went on the Sabbath to a place of prayer by the river near Philippi, where there was no synagogue and very few Jews, to evangelize the Gentiles:

Acts 16:11 From Troas we put out to sea and sailed straight for Samothrace, and the next day on to Neapolis. 12 From there we traveled to Philippi, a Roman colony and the leading city of that district of Macedonia. And we stayed there several days.

13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there. 14 One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message. 15 When she and the members of her household were baptized, she invited us to her home. "If you consider me a believer in the Lord," she said, "come and stay at my house." And she persuaded us.

cygnusx1 said:
3) Once Paul states "from now on I will go to the Gentiles" (Acts 18:6), the Sabbath is never again mentioned.

The fact that the Bible does not mention again Paul's observance of the Sabbath is not evidence that it didn't happen. Silence is not proof. Actually, the Bible is not even silent about the fact that Paul still kept the law:

Acts 21:17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

Although the Sabbath is not mentioned here, think about how the Jews would have received the news that Paul no longer kept the Sabbath. Instead, he went out of his way to show the Jews that he believed that the law was still important.

cygnusx1 said:
And 4) instead of suggesting adherence to the Sabbath day, the remainder of the New Testament implies the opposite (including the one exception to point 3 above, found in Colossians 2:16).Looking more closely at point 4 above will reveal that there is no obligation for the New Testament believer to keep the Sabbath, and will also show that the idea of a Sunday "Christian Sabbath" is also unscriptural. As discussed above, there is one time the Sabbath is mentioned after Paul began to focus on the Gentiles, "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or Sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:1617). The Jewish Sabbath was abolished at the cross where Christ "wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us" (Colossians 2:14).
This idea is repeated more than once in the New Testament: "One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it" (Romans 14:56a). "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years" (Galatians 4:910).

The handwriting of ordinances (or the "certificate of debt," as some versions more accurately translate this) that was nailed to the cross was not the Sabbath or the law. It was debt of sin that we owed because we broke the law. Jesus paid that debt on the cross; He did not do away with the law. Here are a couple of links to posts in other threads that more fully explain this idea:
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22921548&postcount=543
http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22888254&postcount=55

cygnusx1 said:
But some claim that a mandate by Constantine in A.D. 321 "changed" the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. On what day did the early church meet for worship? Scripture never mentions any Sabbath (Saturday) gatherings by believers for fellowship or worship. However, there are clear passages that mention the first day of the week. For instance, Acts 20:7 states that "on the first day of the week the disciples came together to break bread." In 1 Corinthians 16:2 Paul urges the Corinthian believers "on the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as he may prosper." Since Paul designates this offering as "service" in 2 Corinthians 9:12, this collection must have been linked with the Sunday worship service of the Christian assembly. Historically Sunday, not Saturday, was the normal meeting day for Christians in the church, and its practice dates back to the first century.

Actually, there is much evidence in the writings of the Early Church Fathers that the seventh-day Sabbath was kept by Christians in the early centuries of Christianity, in addition to the acknowledged rise in significance of Sunday as a day of worship. In Rome, there was increasing pressure on Christians to get away from what became perceived as Judaizing as a result of several Jewish uprisings and a subsequent increase in persecution by the Roman government. Christians then sought to dissociate themselves with the Jews, and renouncing the Sabbath became an especially visible way of doing that. Elsewhere in the Roman Empire, however, Christians still observed the seventh-day Sabbath, as well as Sunday, for many centuries. Here is a fifth-century quote from Sozomen:

The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.

You can read more of what the ECF said about the Sabbath here: http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=22587200&postcount=20. I'm sure that my husband (Tall73) would be happy to post his more extensive ECF quotes here as well. Your assertion is not borne out by the historical evidence. The early Christians continued to observe Saturday as the Sabbath in almost the entire Roman world after Jesus' resurrection, even after the time of Constantine.

cygnusx1 said:
The Sabbath was given to Israel, not the church. The Sabbath is still Saturday, not Sunday, and has never been changed. But the Sabbath is part of the Old Testament Law, and Christians are free from the bondage of the Law (Galatians 4:1-26; Romans 6:14). Sabbath keeping is not required of the Christianbe it Saturday or Sunday. The first day of the week, Sunday, the Lord's Day (Revelation 1:10) celebrates the New Creation, with Christ as our resurrected Head. We are not obligated to follow the Mosaic Sabbathresting, but are now free to follow the risen Christserving. The Apostle Paul said that each individual Christian should decide whether to observe a Sabbath rest, One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind (Romans 14:5).

The Sabbath commandment was never given exclusively to the Jews:

Exodus 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Gentiles who lived in Israelite territory had to abide by many of the OT laws, many of them involving food (not eating blood or roadkill, for instance). Aliens in Israel also had to rest on the Day of Atonement. The OT says several times that the Gentiles among them were to be subject to the same laws as the Israelites and that they were also to be treated as native-born and loved as they loved themselves.

In the NT, the directives to avoid blood, food sacrificed to idols, the meat of strangled animals, and sexual immorality were given even to the Gentile Christians as a result of the Council of Jerusalem:

Acts 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

The Gentiles who were grafted into the olive tree (see Romans 11:17-24) still had to follow some of the supposed Jewish-only laws because they were not Jewish-only laws. They were not the laws that pointed forward to Jesus' death and resurrection, like sacrifices. They were also not the laws that would make it difficult for Gentiles to become Christians, like circumcision, which I imagine would have been quite painful for an adult and which was replaced by baptism as the outward sign of our entering into the new covenant. These were laws that people would have assumed would apply only to the Jews but which concerned actions that were particularly abhorrent to God, which was why even the aliens in the OT had to follow them.

The earliest Gentile Christians were like the OT aliens living in Israel in many ways. They were supposed to be loved and treated well but often were not. They were looked down upon by even the Jewish Christians, who still viewed themselves as more worthy of salvation than the Gentiles because they were the natural-born children of Abraham. They worshiped together in the Jewish synagogues, where, according to Acts 15, they heard the teachings of Moses every Sabbath. There never was a controversy over whether they should keep the Sabbath because they were doing that already. Like the commandments regarding worshiping other gods and killing and stealing, the Sabbath was not a commandment that anyone thought was only for the Jews. Disagreements arose over those things that particularly separated Jews from Gentiles, like circumcision and dietary issues.

The Sabbath never separated Jewish and Gentile Christians; it brought them together to worship God in spirit and in truth. While there may have been disputes over how to keep the Sabbath (just as there are today) because some of the Jews clung to their unbiblical traditions and some of the Gentiles clung to their pagan worship practices, there was no arguing over what day was the Sabbath or even whether it should be kept. Christians who keep the Sabbath today (Jews and Gentiles alike) should keep it not according to Jewish tradition but according to the new covenant, which, contrary to popular opinion, does not set us free from the law; it sets us free from our sin and from man-made legalistic requirements and writes the true meaning of the law on our hearts. The true purpose of the Sabbath is to more fully love God and others as we fix our eyes on Jesus and on the grace that He has given us.

cygnusx1 said:
We are to worship God every day, not just on Saturday or Sunday.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

Well, I agree, but the Sabbath is about more than worshiping God. It's a sign of loyalty to God and a foretaste of the eternal rest of salvation that God has promised us (according to Hebrews 4).

ethereous · Mar 26, 2006

What I find kind of funny and sad at the same time is that people believe the jews of today are Israelites. So much prophecy and Biblical information is scrambled because people try to squeeze everything to fit that line of thinking. Kind of like putting a square play block through the star hole. It is the same reason people don't question why the jews use the Lunar calendar (Nisan) as opposed to the Solar (Abib). God condemned the Israelites for using such a calendar (Nisan). Yet these Christians look to the Edomites who adopted the calendar (Nisan) and continue to use it to this day.

Esaias 1:13-14

13Though ye bring fine flour, it is vain; incense is an abomination to me; I cannot bear your new moons and your sabbaths, and the great day; 14your fasting, and rest from work, your new moon also, and your feasts my soul hates: ye have become loathsome to me; I will no more pardon your sins.

BigChrisfilm · Mar 27, 2006

Sophia7 said:
On the contrary, the Sabbath was a reminder of both the Lord's creation and the Lord's deliverance. One reason did not negate the other just because one was mentioned in one place and one in another. And the fact that the Sabbath was not mentioned from creation to Exodus does not prove that it was not being kept that whole time although it is possible that it, along with many other principles of God's law, had been neglected during the years of slavery in Egypt--hence the need for the specifically written commandments spelled out by God.

Yes, but just because it doesn't prove that they didn't keep the sabbath, it also doesn't prove that they did.

Sophia7 said:
As Christians (at least in the United States), we no longer execute people for committing adultery (which I believe we have discussed in another thread) or worshiping other gods or stealing or bearing false witness or dishonoring their parents. Does that mean that these things are now acceptable to God? The Sabbath is the only one of the ten commandments that people really want to ignore.

God didn't just give 10 commandments, he gave the isrealities a list of rules to live by as well, this includes all the things you stated above and more, if you are going to keep the sabbath, you must do all the things god told them to do, also I would make the arguement that the sabbath is not the only 10 commandment people want to disobay, I will list some common ones, 1. Using the lords name in vain, 2. Honor you Father and Mother, 3. Adultery, 4. Stealing, 5. Testify against your neighbor. As you can see, more than just the sabbath here.

Sophia7 said:
Jesus kept the Sabbath, and He kept it as a day to minister to others, not as a day of legalistic requirements put upon Him by rabbinic tradition. Why did Jesus go to so much effort to reeducate the Pharisees on the true meaning of the Sabbath if suddenly it were to be abolished after His resurrection?

"But Jesus replied, "Haven't you ever read in the scriptures what King David did when he and his companions were hungry? He went into the house of God (during the days when Abiathar was high priest) ate the special bread reserved for the priedt alone, and then game some to his companions. That was breaking the law, too." Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and not people to benefit the Sabbath. And I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath!" (Mark 2:25-28)

Sophia7 said:
The fact that the Bible does not mention again Paul's observance of the Sabbath is not evidence that it didn't happen. Silence is not proof. Actually, the Bible is not even silent about the fact that Paul still kept the law:

Well once again, just because it doesn't say it didn't happen, doesn't mean it did.

linssue55 · Mar 27, 2006

BigChrisfilm said:
http://www.bible.ca/7-sabbath.htm

This guy claims "$10,000 for one Bible verse that proves the Sabbath!!!"

if you think you can, go get you some money.

He is correct..........

The Sabbath is set aside in the Church Age,

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]Col. 2:16-17~~ (Exegesis)[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]16.~~Consequently, [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]STOP allowing anyone to judge you in eating and drinking,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]or in the matter of a feast, or of the new month, or of the Sabbaths.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: This is refering to 'legalism'. Someone trying to tell you that you have to follow rituals of the Jewish Age.}[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]17~~ Which {rituals} kept on being a shadow[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]of those things about to come,[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]but the reality is from the source of Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Times New I2]{Note: the Jewish Age rituals were 'shadows' of the reality that was and is Christ. The Jewish Age looked forward to the cross. The Church age looks back on the cross}.[/FONT]

Sophia7 · Mar 27, 2006

BigChrisfilm said:
Yes, but just because it doesn't prove that they didn't keep the sabbath, it also doesn't prove that they did.

I wasn't saying that it proved that they kept it. I was saying that the fact that it is not mentioned doesn't prove that they didn't keep it. The point is that you can't prove anything either way with this argument.

BigChrisfilm said:
God didn't just give 10 commandments, he gave the isrealities a list of rules to live by as well, this includes all the things you stated above and more, if you are going to keep the sabbath, you must do all the things god told them to do. . . .

God Himself made a distinction between the ten commandments, written on tables of stone by His own hand, and the rest of the law, written in a book by Moses. The ten commandments were placed inside the ark of the covenant. The book of the law of Moses was placed beside the ark, not inside it. Here are some texts that show this:

Exodus 25:10-17
10 "Have them make a chest of acacia wood--two and a half cubits long, a cubit and a half wide, and a cubit and a half high. 11 Overlay it with pure gold, both inside and out, and make a gold molding around it. 12 Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other. 13 Then make poles of acacia wood and overlay them with gold. 14 Insert the poles into the rings on the sides of the chest to carry it. 15 The poles are to remain in the rings of this ark; they are not to be removed. 16 Then put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you.

17 "Make an atonement cover of pure gold--two and a half cubits long and a cubit and a half wide. 18 And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. 19 Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends. 20 The cherubim are to have their wings spread upward, overshadowing the cover with them. The cherubim are to face each other, looking toward the cover. 21 Place the cover on top of the ark and put in the ark the Testimony, which I will give you. 22 There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the Testimony, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

Deuteronomy 10:3-5
3 So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands. 4 The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me. 5 Then I came back down the mountain and put the tablets in the ark I had made, as the LORD commanded me, and they are there now.

Deuteronomy 31:24-27
24 After Moses finished writing in a book the words of this law from beginning to end, 25 he gave this command to the Levites who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD: 26 "Take this Book of the Law and place it beside the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God. There it will remain as a witness against you. 27 For I know how rebellious and stiff-necked you are. If you have been rebellious against the LORD while I am still alive and with you, how much more will you rebel after I die!

There are also many laws in the OT that relate specifically to the sacrificial system and to the idea of being ritually pure to enter the tabernacle. These pointed forward symbolically to Jesus and are no longer relevant. The ten commandments do not do this, and Jesus emphasized their continuing relevance when He summarized them with the directives to love the Lord our God (which relate to the first four commandments) and to love our neighbors as ourselves (which relate to the last six). Those are the greater principles behind all of the commandments, but that does not negate the specific applications of them that are stated in the ten commandments. Jesus was revealing the true meaning behind His commandments, which went beyond merely the letter of the law.

Also, as I said earlier, many laws were given to not only to the Israelites but also to the Gentiles who lived among them (see Leviticus 17). These laws, such as abstaining from blood and sexual immorality and food sacrificed to idols, were reinforced by the Jerusalem Council. The Sabbath was not an issue of dispute at the council because they were already keeping it. Here is part of what I said earlier about this:

Sophia7 said:
The Gentiles who were grafted into the olive tree (see Romans 11:17-24) still had to follow some of the supposed Jewish-only laws because they were not Jewish-only laws. They were not the laws that pointed forward to Jesus' death and resurrection, like sacrifices. They were also not the laws that would make it difficult for Gentiles to become Christians, like circumcision, which I imagine would have been quite painful for an adult and which was replaced by baptism as the outward sign of our entering into the new covenant. These were laws that people would have assumed would apply only to the Jews but which concerned actions that were particularly abhorrent to God, which was why even the aliens in the OT had to follow them.

The earliest Gentile Christians were like the OT aliens living in Israel in many ways. They were supposed to be loved and treated well but often were not. They were looked down upon by even the Jewish Christians, who still viewed themselves as more worthy of salvation than the Gentiles because they were the natural-born children of Abraham. They worshiped together in the Jewish synagogues, where, according to Acts 15, they heard the teachings of Moses every Sabbath. There never was a controversy over whether they should keep the Sabbath because they were doing that already. Like the commandments regarding worshiping other gods and killing and stealing, the Sabbath was not a commandment that anyone thought was only for the Jews. Disagreements arose over those things that particularly separated Jews from Gentiles, like circumcision and dietary issues.

The Sabbath never separated Jewish and Gentile Christians; it brought them together to worship God in spirit and in truth. While there may have been disputes over how to keep the Sabbath (just as there are today) because some of the Jews clung to their unbiblical traditions and some of the Gentiles clung to their pagan worship practices, there was no arguing over what day was the Sabbath or even whether it should be kept. Christians who keep the Sabbath today (Jews and Gentiles alike) should keep it not according to Jewish tradition but according to the new covenant, which, contrary to popular opinion, does not set us free from the law; it sets us free from our sin and from man-made legalistic requirements and writes the true meaning of the law on our hearts. The true purpose of the Sabbath is to more fully love God and others as we fix our eyes on Jesus and on the grace that He has given us.

BigChrisfilm said:
also I would make the arguement that the sabbath is not the only 10 commandment people want to disobay, I will list some common ones, 1. Using the lords name in vain, 2. Honor you Father and Mother, 3. Adultery, 4. Stealing, 5. Testify against your neighbor. As you can see, more than just the sabbath here.

My argument was not that people don't want to disobey the others; obviously, people want to disobey God. Sin is fun. My point was that no one that I have talked to (that is, among Christians) has said that they think committing adultery or worshiping other gods or stealing or lying or taking the Lord's name in vain or murdering or coveting or disrespecting their parents is morally right. They still believe that God has certain standards and principles that we should follow. Even those who say that if we love God, we will just automatically know what is right and stop sinning do not say that those things are all right to do now. It is only the Sabbath commandment that people really believe is no longer relevant to Christians.

BigChrisfilm said:
"But Jesus replied, "Haven't you ever read in the scriptures what King David did when he and his companions were hungry? He went into the house of God (during the days when Abiathar was high priest) ate the special bread reserved for the priedt alone, and then game some to his companions. That was breaking the law, too." Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and not people to benefit the Sabbath. And I, the Son of Man, am master even of the Sabbath!" (Mark 2:25-28)

Yes, and Jesus was pointing out that the religious leaders were putting impossible restrictions on the Sabbath, burdens that the people couldn't carry. Jesus did not break the Sabbath; the Jewish teachers only thought He did. He kept it according to the original principles of God. He stripped away all of the unbiblical rabbinic traditions and showed people what the Sabbath was always supposed to be about, which was loving God and loving our neighbors. It was a gift to help them in their relationship with God, not a yoke of legalistic slavery. He told them that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Now, I will restate my earlier question: why did Jesus go to so much trouble to reeducate them as to the true meaning of the Sabbath if He intended to abolish it with His death and resurrection?

BigChrisfilm said:
Well once again, just because it doesn't say it didn't happen, doesn't mean it did.

Of course not, but you missed the point once again. The Bible does say that Paul still kept the law--and even more strictly than the Gentiles were required to because He was a Jew:

Acts 21:17 When we arrived at Jerusalem, the brothers received us warmly. 18 The next day Paul and the rest of us went to see James, and all the elders were present. 19 Paul greeted them and reported in detail what God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: "You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved. Then everybody will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law. 25 As for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality."

26 The next day Paul took the men and purified himself along with them. Then he went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end and the offering would be made for each of them.

BigChrisfilm · Mar 27, 2006

Sophia7 said:
I wasn't saying that it proved that they kept it. I was saying that the fact that it is not mentioned doesn't prove that they didn't keep it. The point is that you can't prove anything either way with this argument.

You will have to forgive me, I figured that since you are a SDA, you were using that as one of the reason to argue that they did keep it. I agree that it doesn't prove either way, infact I don't think something like that should ever be brought up in the first place, because it has nothing to do with the word of god.

Sophia7 said:
Yes, and Jesus was pointing out that the religious leaders were putting impossible restrictions on the Sabbath, burdens that the people couldn't carry. Jesus did not break the Sabbath; the Jewish teachers only thought He did. He kept it according to the original principles of God. He stripped away all of the unbiblical rabbinic traditions and showed people what the Sabbath was always supposed to be about, which was loving God and loving our neighbors. It was a gift to help them in their relationship with God, not a yoke of legalistic slavery. He told them that it was lawful to do good on the Sabbath. Now, I will restate my earlier question: why did Jesus go to so much trouble to reeducate them as to the true meaning of the Sabbath if He intended to abolish it with His death and resurrection?

I would have to disagree, because of this.

"...Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, bt the seventh days is a day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work...." (EXODUS 20:9)

Now since Jesus was having them do work he was breaking the commandments, and not the traditions, it make no statement about the traditions in that verse, he is only talking about the law, he even admitts to breaking it by giving the exaple of someone else breaking the law, but being righteuos.

Sophia7 · Mar 28, 2006

BigChrisfilm said:
You will have to forgive me, I figured that since you are a SDA, you were using that as one of the reason to argue that they did keep it. I agree that it doesn't prove either way, infact I don't think something like that should ever be brought up in the first place, because it has nothing to do with the word of god.

That's OK. You're forgiven.

BigChrisfilm said:
I would have to disagree, because of this.

"...Six days a week are set apart for your daily duties and regular work, bt the seventh days is a day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work...." (EXODUS 20:9)

Now since Jesus was having them do work he was breaking the commandments, and not the traditions, it make no statement about the traditions in that verse, he is only talking about the law, he even admitts to breaking it by giving the exaple of someone else breaking the law, but being righteuos.

But the Jewish traditions were added to the law to define what "work" was. They went far beyond what God ever intended in restricting people's Sabbath activities. They had laws that dictated how far a person could walk on Sabbath. They had laws that said that if you buried food ahead of time at intervals, you could consider those places homes and thus walk farther. They had laws about connecting houses with planks so that they could consider them one house and carry food between them. They had laws about sewing handkerchiefs to their clothing so that they wouldn't have to carry them (which they thought was unlawful). It was very legalistic of them to accuse Jesus' disciples of work because they were eating grain from a field on the Sabbath. Jesus called them on it.

Also, Jesus mentioned that the priests who ministered in the temple were breaking the Sabbath. What did He mean by that? Were they really? One would think so. However, they were breaking it only if you go by legalistic definitions of Sabbath-keeping. What I mean is that their work of ministry had to be done, even on the Sabbath. Likewise, Jesus couldn't take the day off from His ministry. The work of salvation superceded in importance even the requirements of the Sabbath. And Jesus made a big deal of telling them that helping others was a good thing to do on the Sabbath. My husband is a minister and has to work on Sabbath; in fact, that is probably his busiest work day. His work is not breaking the Sabbath, though, because he is following the Lord's calling. So I see kind of a paradox here; a person can work and keep the Sabbath at the same time. It all depends on what kind of work it is. And the ideas of unlawful Sabbath work that the Pharisees had were just plain wrong. The point of what Jesus taught here is that doing the Lord's work on Sabbath is not the kind of work that is forbidden by the law of God.

Jesus would not have claimed the title "Lord of the Sabbath" if the Sabbath were not important. He claimed that title because He made the Sabbath, and He gave it to us, and He knew its true purpose. He wants us to remember it--not the way the religious leaders did, with a bunch of impossible rules and regulations that gave them a pretense of righteousness, but as a day to experience joy in the Lord because of the true righteousness that He has given us.

BigChrisfilm · Mar 28, 2006

I know what you mean, they did have traditions, but the word is very clear, it so you may not do ANY work... I think that means no work, no matter what, it doesn't matter what their traditions were, Jesus had them doing work on the Sabbath, and god said don't do ANY work.

Citizen of the Kingdom · Apr 23, 2006

I honestly think the big thing about it is dietary. On the sabbath manna wasn`t given to them. They were allowed to keep some from the day before, tho.
On the year of Jubilee they were told to let the land rest for one year and God would have given them enough food from the year before as well.
They ended up going into captivity for not allowing the land to rest.
Our bodies go into sickness when not given the rest,too.
Our bodies only go into a healing mode when the digestion system isn`t in use.
So to make a long story short if we don't go w/o our "manna" (IOW fasting) one day a week we too will go into captivity where sickness will make us rest.
So forget the Pharisitical rules and just let the body heal itself once a week. Makes sence to me.

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