To all Mormons

Breetai · Jul 12, 2004

Chaucer, I do not intend to insult you. You have come onto a Christian board, into a section of it in which Christians and Latter-day Saints discuss our beliefs. You have come in and have given your opinion on a subject; presenting it as factual- that you have no doubt about what you are saying. We ask you where you stand in your beliefs and you condensendingly refuse to answer, telling us that it is of no consequence. If you choose to remain mysterious, giving us what you think is your wisdon when we really have no idea where you stand on an issue, then your words are useless here. I mean not to insult you or to not welcome you here in our little world, but if you contune to give us little titbits of your insight and tell us nothing about your religious convictions, then what wisdom do you hope to impart upon us? Are you trying to confuse us in our faith?

Doc T · Jul 13, 2004

Breetai said:
They believe that he was a real prophet because they have prayed about the Book of Mormon; to see if it is true. They then say that they recieve a nice warm feeling in their heart(the burning of the boson. This, the believe, is the Holy Spirit confirming to them the everything in the Book of Mormon(and therefore in the LDS Church as well) is true. Their entire testimony is based upon a nice feeling.

Please show me in LDS scripture where it says that the only way to gain a testimony of truth is from "a nice warm feeling in [our] hearts". Also please tell us how you know that "their entire testimony is based on a nice feeling" as I totally reject that notion.

Thanks

Doc

~

GOD'S ARMY · Jul 13, 2004

I grew up in the LDS church. I lived by the teachings and always felt good a bout them. Then, through experiences in high school, I became very lost in a spiritual sense. The way I was able to gain a personal testimony(for I believe the first time in my life) was the exact same way Joseph Smith did. After that everything I have learned since has continued to strengthen my testimony. It is not all about a burning in the bosom. It has to do with being in touch with the Holy Spirit. It has to do with spirituality, not evidences that you can hold and see. If you believe in the Bible because it has always been, because of so many before you telling you it is true and real because of evedence, I contend that is not faith. You cannot believe the Book of Mormon because you can't see it. Do not trivialize or belittle the spiritual feelings that we have through the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Ran77 · Jul 13, 2004

Breetai said:
He made predictions. They didn't come true. He was a false prophet.

As well as several Bible prophets. Do you reject them as well? Do you reject the Bible because it contains the stories of false prophets? Or do you choose a hypocritical stance that allows you to cast stones at others and ignore the same conditions within your own belief system?

gort · Jul 13, 2004

GA quote:

If you believe in the Bible because it has always been, because of so many before you telling you it is true and real because of evedence, I contend that is not faith.

Why is that not faith? It tells us His story by those that witnessed. Believing that all scripture is God breathed is faith. Where is yours? Founded in a man? Joseph Smith?

Do not trivialize or belittle the spiritual feelings that we have through the gift of the Holy Ghost.

How do you know it is the HS? How can the HS tell of 2 different gospels? The LDS gospel is surely different than the one taught in the Bible.

Are you absolutely sure you have the right spirit?

<><

nb_christseeker · Jul 13, 2004

As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.

GOD'S ARMY · Jul 13, 2004

daneel said:
Why is that not faith? It tells us His story by those that witnessed. Believing that all scripture is God breathed is faith. Where is yours? Founded in a man? Joseph Smith?

My point is that taking someone elses word for it is basing your faith in a man. I did not take Joseph Smith's word for it, I took in all the words of every prophet(Biblical, Book of Mormon, and modern) and prayed about it. Should we not pray for wisdom? Should we not pray for the power of God to manifest the truth to us? I struggle with why knowledge of the Lord through prayer is such a problem with you and yours.

How do you know it is the HS? How can the HS tell of 2 different gospels? The LDS gospel is surely different than the one taught in the Bible.

Are you absolutely sure you have the right spirit?

<><

Positive. They are not two gospels. They are one. They so beautifully compliment eachother. What is the use questioning the Holy Spirit? I tell you it is real and it works and you say I am being fooled. Well, you haven't felt it. You have not felt what I have felt or you would understand. Do you really not believe that God can speak to you through the Holy Spirit? If not, then what is the Holy Ghost there for anyway? He is sent to fill us with the pure love of Christ and the love of our Father in Heaven.

gort · Jul 13, 2004

GA quote:

I struggle with why knowledge of the Lord through prayer is such a problem with you and yours

You really should'nt struggle, because it is not a problem for me and mine. Where would you get an idea like that?

I really don't seek for knowledge, I seek for understanding.

Positive. They are not two gospels. They are one. They so beautifully compliment eachother.

Yes, they are 2 differing gospels. Nor do they compliment each other. They conflict each other. Your heaven is sub-divided. Ours is one, plainly spoken of in the Bible. Outside of that clearly marked heaven is outer darkness, containing the Lake of Fire. The Light of the Father and Son do not shine there.

What is the use questioning the Holy Spirit? I tell you it is real and it works and you say I am being fooled. Well, you haven't felt it. You have not felt what I have felt or you would understand. Do you really not believe that God can speak to you through the Holy Spirit? If not, then what is the Holy Ghost there for anyway? He is sent to fill us with the pure love of Christ and the love of our Father in Heaven.

The Holy Spirit indwells, teaches, and tells us things He has heard. He can tell us of Gods Love for me, completely overpowering me, dropping me to my knees. The Holy spirit is like the wind, for I do not know from where it comes from, other than God. He tells me truths, and has given me a power of discernment. He teaches me scripture and the meanings of it. He can make me laugh, can make me cry. He can show me Gods Glory. And that is very powerful. Very powerful indeed. He can teach me what is true, and what is false. Yet I must test this last one always, to make sure that it lines up with the Word of God.

Feelings are great, but must be tested for accuracy.

It is written that the evil can appear as an angel of light. Therefore has powers, when God allows.

Your gospel is clearly different. I have heard other mormons say that just because you were born, you automatically recieve Gods Grace in Christ Jesus.

This idea alone is not proclaimed in the Bible.

Another gift of the Holy Spirit is Love. A love for you personally, in caring about your salvation. Yet I can have a hatred for your beliefs. Because they are false.

Were I not saved, and belong to Jesus, bound tightly, I would have no love for you. I would be a unregenerate man. I would then tell you that you are free to worship how you like, and to whom you like.

Most Christians know that there is only salvation in Christ Jesus. Outside of that is outer darkness.

peace

<><

AMMON · Jul 13, 2004

Ran77 said:
As well as several Bible prophets. Do you reject them as well? Do you reject the Bible because it contains the stories of false prophets? Or do you choose a hypocritical stance that allows you to cast stones at others and ignore the same conditions within your own belief system?

*crickets*

Fit4Christ · Jul 13, 2004

Ran77 said:
As well as several Bible prophets. Do you reject them as well? Do you reject the Bible because it contains the stories of false prophets? Or do you choose a hypocritical stance that allows you to cast stones at others and ignore the same conditions within your own belief system?

You make a very strong accusation. Care to provide some references so we know what you are talking about??

GOD'S ARMY · Jul 13, 2004

daneel said:
You really should'nt struggle, because it is not a problem for me and mine. Where would you get an idea like that?

Because we are attacked daily on this board for following the promptings of the spirit. Do you deny that?

I really don't seek for knowledge, I seek for understanding.

Seek for whatever you wish. To know him I must understand him. To understand him I must know him. I seek for all things from God and knowledge is one of them.

Yes, they are 2 differing gospels. Nor do they compliment each other. They conflict each other. Your heaven is sub-divided. Ours is one, plainly spoken of in the Bible. Outside of that clearly marked heaven is outer darkness, containing the Lake of Fire. The Light of the Father and Son do not shine there.

The Bible is wonderful. The most wonderful part is that it is available to all to gain a better insight into our Lord according to their own dictates. I do believe the Bible to be the word of God. I also believe that there are many mysteries of God that are unknown.

The Holy Spirit indwells, teaches, and tells us things He has heard. He can tell us of Gods Love for me, completely overpowering me, dropping me to my knees. The Holy spirit is like the wind, for I do not know from where it comes from, other than God. He tells me truths, and has given me a power of discernment. He teaches me scripture and the meanings of it. He can make me laugh, can make me cry. He can show me Gods Glory. And that is very powerful. Very powerful indeed. He can teach me what is true, and what is false. Yet I must test this last one always, to make sure that it lines up with the Word of God.

I agree.

Feelings are great, but must be tested for accuracy.

I agree.

It is written that the evil can appear as an angel of light. Therefore has powers, when God allows.

Are you saying that God allows satan to fill the LDS church and its members? You do believe that the LDS are the most divisive of any other chuch, don't you? You think God would continue to allow satan to have a church that has grown as the LDS church has? I assure you it is not getting smaller.

Your gospel is clearly different. I have heard other mormons say that just because you were born, you automatically recieve Gods Grace in Christ Jesus.

This idea alone is not proclaimed in the Bible.

We believe in a premortal world. When we chose to follow the teachings of Christ in that world we kept our first estate which will allow us to be resurrected.

Another gift of the Holy Spirit is Love. A love for you personally, in caring about your salvation. Yet I can have a hatred for your beliefs. Because they are false.

Were I not saved, and belong to Jesus, bound tightly, I would have no love for you. I would be a unregenerate man. I would then tell you that you are free to worship how you like, and to whom you like.

Most Christians know that there is only salvation in Christ Jesus. Outside of that is outer darkness.

peace

<><

It is a good thing that I believe in Christ. He is my king.

Ran77 · Jul 13, 2004

Fit4Christ said:
You make a very strong accusation. Care to provide some references so we know what you are talking about??

Moses and Joshua prophesied that all the Canaanites would be driven out. (Deuteronomy 7:1-2; Joshua 3:10)

They were not. (Joshua 16:10)

Jeremiah prophesied that Zedekiah would die in peace. (Jeremiah 34:5)

He did not. (Jeremiah 52:10-11)

Isaiah prophesied that Damascus would be completely destroyed. (Isaiah 17:1)

It was not it still exists.

Johan prophesied that Nineveh would be overthrown. (Johan 3:4)

It wasnt. (Jonah 3:10)

I also have verses that indicate that prophets are not infallible.

Isaiah 28:7

But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

James wrote that Elijah was a man subject to passions as we are (James 5:17)

Ran77 · Jul 13, 2004

Ammon said:
*crickets*

Not quite yet. That normally happens after I post the verses.

gort · Jul 13, 2004

GA quote:

The Bible is wonderful. The most wonderful part is that it is available to all to gain a better insight into our Lord according to their own dictates. I do believe the Bible to be the word of God. I also believe that there are many mysteries of God that are unknown.

Because you have a prophet, if the prophet recieves revelation, and is voted on as canon, and made official doctrine, what if that new official doctrine overrides a clearly taught scripture in the Bible?

I have noticed that someone has asked about blacks and the priesthood being denied in your BOM. Yet that canon was changed by revelation of one of your prophets. I am assuming this would be true.

Is it also true for the Bible?

And yes, this is a leading question, but not a trick one.

The rest of your last statements I would save for later, as they depend on your answer to this question I pose.

thanx

<><

Eldest · Jul 13, 2004

Mormons always misinterpret , James 1:5, which basically states, " if any of you you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him." this is a prime example of Eisogesis, which the Mormons seem to love doing to the bible. Paul instructs us in 1 Thessalonians 5:21 to basically "test everything", hold on to the good, avoid every kind of evil." Can you name a single mormon who is objective, who will actually question their faith or leaders. It is sad to see someone live their lives on nothing but "subjective feelings" .And for that matter, which book of mormon do the LDS pray about, the 1830, 1921, or the modern version of TBOM?

Chaucer · Jul 13, 2004

skylark1 said:
Hi Chaucer,

Welcome to CF.

Whether or not one is a Christian may not hold much relevance when ordering at Taco Bell, but it is relevant when posting on a Christian board. Wouldn't you agree?

Hi Skylark and thank you for the welcome.

Answer: maybe, maybe not. I've posted on three message boards where religion was involved. I found that how people chose to label themselves - agnostic, Christian, atheist, Muslim, Wiccan, Lutheran, 7th Day, etc, was completely useless in predicting whether the person's posts, behavior and character would be honest, insightful, intelligent, kind, Christlike, factual, enjoyable, stimulating, challenging, entertaining, gloryifying of God, or disnhonest, offensive, a poor example for Christ, unkind, stupid, dogmatic and unsound... with the possible exception that people who self identify as agnostic seem, on average, to be more honest and insightful.

I do suppose that knowing someone's background is useful in making a very broad assumption about their mindset and I suppose that is why we have those little icon thingys. However, in this particular thread my observation was that a belief that Paul and Peter were called of Christ is purely a matter of faith based upon dogmation assertion with the Bible being the asserter. And, people who believe in religious tenets be they Catholic, Hindu, Mormon, Lutheran, whatever, believe as they do as a matter of faith that has its genesis in dogmatic assertion.

BTW, I do believe that the Spirit can touch a person's heart and convey truth to the individual but that is completely personal, and not externally provable to anyone besides that individual.

Chaucer · Jul 13, 2004

Eldest said:
And for that matter, which book of mormon do the LDS pray about, the 1830, 1921, or the modern version of TBOM?

Having no idea what the difference is in the versions you mention, I am left wondering how many thousands and thousands of versions there are of the Bible and if the differences in them are less than or greater than the differences you are referring to?

Do you know?

Eldest · Jul 13, 2004

The differences are pretty minute in the Christian Bibles as compared to the different changes in TBOM. The Dead Sea Scrolls can confirm that the Old Testament is pretty much accurate, as well as 1000's of other scrolls, books, and whatever have you, can prove that BOTH testaments are fairly accurate and are credible. Name one source of proof for TBOM? What you can't? Dont even say the Books of Moses and Abraham, which have been proven without a doubt to be ancient egyptian burial rituals misinterpreted by Mr. Smith. In the end TBOM and all of Mormonism is supported by the "subjective feelings " of its followers. You can say that Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism are also based on "subjective feelings", but at least we have proof to back up our claims.

Eldest · Jul 13, 2004

As for asking on wether or not I know the differences between the different books of mormonism, yes I do. It's not hard to find . I have been studying Theology for almost 20 years now. Based on your statements I think you are a Mormon, Chaucer, and I will no longer debate the point with you. Look up the definition of a "cult" and get back to me, then tell me if mormonism fits in with that definition. Why are the mormons afraid of subjectivity? Answer me that...

Chaucer · Jul 13, 2004

Eldest said:
The differences are pretty minute in the Christian Bibles as compared to the different changes in TBOM. The Dead Sea Scrolls can confirm that the Old Testament is pretty much accurate, as well as 1000's of other scrolls, books, and whatever have you, can prove that BOTH testaments are fairly accurate and are credible. Name one source of proof for TBOM? What you can't?

Hold on there friend, let's not change the subject. I have no desire to give a source or proof for the Boook of Mormon. But I think that your statement that the difference between the thousands of different Bible versions and the four Book of Mormon versions smacks of irresponsible absurdity.

I am going of a picnic but I bet that when I return, a few minutes of checking will prove your statement utterly defenseless.

In the meantime, if anyone else is interested and knows something about, say, the Cloverdale Bible and, say the NIV... be my guest.

To all Mormons

For I am not ashamed of the Gospel...

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Senior Contributor

pedantric

Well-Known Member

Active Member

pedantric

LATTER-DAY SAINT

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Senior Contributor

Senior Contributor

pedantric

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency