Tithing

4thwatcher · Nov 12, 2004

Once again, I'll ask the question of you that no one has stepped up to take advantage of: are you willing to debate this formally?

i dont think that's necessary. you CANT even provide a "New" Testament passage explicitly stating to STOP tithing or DON'T tithe at all, more so on a debate ???

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

http://www.christianforums.com/t720430-formal-debate-invite-tithing.html

Just say, "I'm in."

And we'll start.

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

+ poor choice of words

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

Dear 4thwatcher:

Maybe I should elaborate.

I don't give and take a doctrine based on the "New" Testament. Therefore, your contention is baseless to me.

m.d.

Andyman_1970 · Nov 12, 2004

Zoomer said:
I am wondering if you have a scriptural reference for this promise of mulitplying money if we tithe.

Good question........................

Andyman_1970 · Nov 12, 2004

4thwatcher said:
i dont think that's necessary. you CANT even provide a "New" Testament passage explicitly stating to STOP tithing or DON'T tithe at all, more so on a debate ???

The NT doesn't mention anything about the word Trinity and yet we believe it, the NT doesn't mention the word rapture and yet we believe it..........so at some point we/you read something outside the Bible and used it to explain/understand the Text.

In the case of the Tithe do some research on the history/cultural context of this.

Question: what was going on in Israel during the time of Malachi? What did the Tithe go to, who did it feed? The answers to these questions have some interesting implications for how we tend to view the Tithe.

4thwatcher · Nov 12, 2004

I am wondering if you have a scriptural reference for this promise of mulitplying money if we tithe.

you dont give your tithe to expect monitary return, do you are you giving your love offering with the expectation of gaining it back from heaven

muffler dragon said:
Dear 4thwatcher:

Maybe I should elaborate.

I don't give and take a doctrine based on the "New" Testament. Therefore, your contention is baseless to me.

m.d.

your belief of NOT TO TITHE is up to you. i give my tithe as it is being scriptural. dont persuade me NOT TO GIVE MY TITHE as im happy giving my tithes besides, you can not even read a single NT verse which explicitly mentions NOT TO TITHE OR TO STOP TITHING

Cowardice is unbecoming.

again, i dont think that's necessary

israelthebride · Nov 12, 2004

I am not bantering anyone.

When I mentioned how I knew YHSHWH,
I did not mean that no one else did, like I did.
I just meant that I knew HIM.
_______

I prove YHSHWH'S WORD/LAW/TRUTH (Genesis to Revelation)
by LIVING IT,
not by debating IT.

As I LIVE HIS WORD/LAW/TRUTH,
I have found that in tithing YHSHWH will BLESS me.
The only proof I have is HIS WORD that HE WILL
and HE DOES.
I BELIEVE YHSHWH.

LOVE, RICOEL

Andyman_1970 · Nov 12, 2004

4thwatcher said:
your belief of NOT TO TITHE is up to you. i give my tithe as it is being scriptural. dont persuade me NOT TO GIVE MY TITHE as im happy giving my tithes besides, you can not even read a single NT verse which explicitly mentions NOT TO TITHE OR TO STOP TITHING

again, i dont think that's necessary

By not giving a Tithe (in the full Biblical definition and context) your "Giving up your tithe", you can still give whatever amount you wish - and if it turns out to be 10% then it's a "tithe" in the sense that it is 10% not that it's Biblical. Your giving would be an offering, which is awesome, read the NT, we are suppose to give generously.

I could argue that John the Baptist teaches us that we should give 50% not "just" 10% - which aligns itself more with the NT definition of giving as we see in the book of Acts.

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

4thwatcher said:
your belief of NOT TO TITHE is up to you. i give my tithe as it is being scriptural. dont persuade me NOT TO GIVE MY TITHE as im happy giving my tithes besides, you can not even read a single NT verse which explicitly mentions NOT TO TITHE OR TO STOP TITHING

I don't give two winks whether you tithe or not. I could not care less.

If you're happy, then knock yourself out.

The tithe doctrine as it is preached today is foreign to the very people it was for: the Jews.

4thwatcher said:
again, i dont think that's necessary

Then say that you tithe because you 'believe' it or it is your opinion. Don't come up to me and say that it's Scriptural, when you won't even debate me or look at the context.

Lastly, do you realize that there are a lot of things that don't happen now that were instituted in the Tanakh ("Old" Testament). And there are others that should be followed that people don't.

I would love to hear your rationale for dismissing the Torah as something to be followed, because nowhere in the "New" Testament does it say the Law has been abolished. But yet, you hold on to this tithe doctrine like it's life and death. Which tends to make me wonder: is this an elitist position? It sure was when I was tithing.

m.d.

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

israelthebride said:
I am not bantering anyone.

When I mentioned how I knew YHSHWH,
I did not mean that no one else did, like I did.
I just meant that I knew HIM.
_______

I prove YHSHWH'S WORD/LAW/TRUTH (Genesis to Revelation)
by LIVING IT,
not by debating IT.

As I LIVE HIS WORD/LAW/TRUTH,
I have found that in tithing YHSHWH will BLESS me.
The only proof I have is HIS WORD that HE WILL
and HE DOES.
I BELIEVE YHSHWH.

LOVE, RICOEL

Okay then.

I have found that HaShem will bless me regardless of tithing.

And that's what it comes down to. Your contention is that you get blessed because you tithe.

My contention is that you will get blessed anyway regardless of it.

To see who is correct, it is typical discourse and interpersonal conduct to debate it. Otherwise, the person who won't debate should simply say, "This is my opinion."

Do you understand where I am coming from?

m.d.

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

Andyman_1970 said:
The NT doesn't mention anything about the word Trinity and yet we believe it, the NT doesn't mention the word rapture and yet we believe it..........so at some point we/you read something outside the Bible and used it to explain/understand the Text.

In the case of the Tithe do some research on the history/cultural context of this.

Question: what was going on in Israel during the time of Malachi? What did the Tithe go to, who did it feed? The answers to these questions have some interesting implications for how we tend to view the Tithe.

Well said, Andy. And you are so much better at doing it without the emotion I present.

4thwatcher · Nov 12, 2004

I am wondering if you have a scriptural reference for this promise of mulitplying money if we tithe.

you dont give your tithe to expect monitary return, do you. are you giving your love offering with the expectation of gaining it back from heaven

The tithe doctrine as it is preached today is foreign to the very people it was for: the Jews.

well, i guess, it's their prerogative if they're not giving their tithes, similar to you as you are not giving your tithes.

It sure was when I was tithing.

so, does it mean you changed your mind from being a tither to becoming a non-tither ?

If you're happy, then knock yourself out.

unless you can read a single passage in the NT stating not to tithe or is STOPPED, you can say what ever you want

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

4thwatcher said:
you dont give your tithe to expect monitary return, do you. are you giving your love offering with the expectation of gaining it back from heaven

If a doctrine is espoused by an organization without taking the context into consideration, then there are a number of different things that people can think when they adopt it as their own.

With the tithe, I have seen people belittled publicly, I have seen couples divorce, and I have seen people amass greats amount of debt. And yes, I have seen adherents of the belief that give simply to get.

4thwatcher said:
well, i guess, it's their prerogative if they're not giving their tithes, similar to you as you are not giving your tithes.

Apparently, you're going to believe in this doctrine even if G-d showed you otherwise. That's fine. By the way, do you know that the tithe doctrine was not adopted by the "Christian" church until the 6th century? But then again, that probably won't mean anything to you either.

4thwatcher said:
so, does it mean you changed your mind from being a tither to becoming a non-tither ?

That is precisely what it means. I was an advocate and debater for the tithe side before I become one against it. That is why I know ALL the arguments.

4thwatcher said:
unless you can read a single passage in the NT stating not to tithe or is STOPPED, you can say what ever you want

Don't really need your permission. But hey, thanks anyway.

It's already apparent that evidence, context, and Scripture combined doesn't matter to you. In that regard, this conversation is over.

StevenL · Nov 12, 2004

You know, a lot of prisoners just can't make it in the outside world so they go back to the old ways so they can be imprisoned again. Freedom is a responsibility that many cannot handle and do not want. Even God doesn't force people to be free.

kspchemist · Nov 12, 2004

A tithe is never currency. Do you understand that?

First off, the tithe doesn't have to be currency, but it is off the INCREASE. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

So what? It clearly shows that the tithe is not money. It can be exchanged into money, but is never money. Apparently, you're missing the simple connection

Again you tithe on the INCREASE. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

There is nothing dubious or solo about it. It says it clearly in the Deuteronomy 14. Are you not reading it? Or is it too hard to possibly evaluate that what you're taught from the pulpit is wrong?

It is dubious, since you will not look at what is tithed, the INCREASE. ANyway are you too rebellious that you cannot take a repremand from someone ealse besides yourself?

Let's do a key word evaluation: storehouse, food, fruits, vine, and grapes. What do they all have in common? They are for storage of produce or are produce themselves. Once again, no money

Again strawman. You tithe an increase. I love to repeat this to you again. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

I am well aware of every passage talking about tithing. Don't worry about trying to educate me on them. The tithe in Deuteronomy is one of three. Is that something that you've ever been made aware of? There are three tithes

Then you are aware you are to tithe off your increase. Do you want to hear my refrain again? Good. I love to repeat this to you again. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

Once again, produce. No money. Read my statements about about Malachi 3 and the 'party'.

Don't bypass the Scripture. The tithe is the LORDs. My refrain again!! If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

Interesting, apparently you do not read very well:

Nice, insulting my intelligence. It's obvious to me you don't the first thing about Scripture. You only pull hot texts to vaguely support your warped view.

Once again, I'll ask the question of you that no one has stepped up to take advantage of: are you willing to debate this formally?

As much as I'd like to. The debate is not my forte. I have a career 0-6 record in formal debates. I know my weaknesses.

Andyman_1970 · Nov 12, 2004

kspchemist said:
First off, the tithe doesn't have to be currency, but it is off the INCREASE. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

Chapter and verse please where "increase" is defined as currency. There was currency avaliable at the time the Torah was given, and yet it tells us that we are to take grain/produce/animals for the Tithe - we see this also in the NT with the pharisee's Tithing their mint/dill (produce), no mention of currency.

I think there is some confusion here. The word Tithe means several things (like all Jewish words do), it can mean 10%, but also the Biblically holistic definition is grain/produce/animals given to the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien. Now I know many people who "tithe" (10%), which is fine if that is how you are led to give, however this is in no way a Biblically holistic Tithe.

One thing I would like to bring up is those who are pro-tithers, how many of your pastors/teachers teach that you are to take your tithe once a year and go have a feast with your family? I would wager not many. Why is it that these same pastors/teachers teach the tithe as Biblical and yet only teach a portion of it? They teach that you "should" give to get (which is in direct contradiction to what Paul taught), they put people under this "bondage" (of sorts) and yet don't teach it in it's fullness.

Does God "need" our money?

God wants our hearts and when God has our hearts we'll start to care abou the things God cares about we'll start to care about the people God cares about - when that happens it becomes VERY clear that John the Baptist's teachings is MUCH more relevant to the church than the tithe.

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

kspchemist said:
First off, the tithe doesn't have to be currency, but it is off the INCREASE. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

Again you tithe on the INCREASE. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

I don't know the first thing about Scripture in your eyes, but yet you won't acknowledge that the tithe is never money. Who's lacking? People had money at the same time that they had the tithe. They never tithed an increase in wages; it was always produce or livestock.

kspchemist said:
It is dubious, since you will not look at what is tithed, the INCREASE. ANyway are you too rebellious that you cannot take a repremand from someone ealse besides yourself?

I'm too rebellious? I look at the literal interpretation of Scripture as it correlates to the tithe. Besides who am I rebelling against? I have outlined it all in context. G-d has not cursed me or punished me for not tithing for three years. He never cursed me or punished me for the 20 years before I started tithing.

I am becoming a Torah-observant gentile. I am starting to attend a synagogue. Synagogues don't take a tithe. Why is that? The tithe was intended primarily for the Levites. There are still people of the Levitical tribe in the world. Why are they not getting a tithe? Answer: because they can own property and livestock. Yet another portion of the context of the tithe that is often left out.

kspchemist said:
Again strawman. You tithe an increase. I love to repeat this to you again. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

It's not a strawman. Do you understand what context is? You cannot take a particular Scripture, passage, dogma or doctrine out of the context it is in. To do otherwise is eisegesis. Meaning you are reading into the passage what you want.

kspchemist said:
Then you are aware you are to tithe off your increase. Do you want to hear my refrain again? Good. I love to repeat this to you again. If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

I am not going to tithe. Been there, done that.

kspchemist said:
Don't bypass the Scripture. The tithe is the LORDs. My refrain again!! If you made money this year, then you've had an INCREASE. Therefore you tithe.

Refrains. Sing the same ol' song. Doesn't make it any more right each time you say it.

kspchemist said:
Nice, insulting my intelligence. It's obvious to me you don't the first thing about Scripture. You only pull hot texts to vaguely support your warped view.

I wasn't insulting your intelligence. You said I forgot the Levites, and I should you that I did not.

As far as the texts, I'm free to pull them all: Abraham, Isaac, pre-Torah, during the Torah, before Temple destruction, after Temple destruction, the gospel reference, Hebrews. I'll discuss any and each one you want.

kspchemist said:
As much as I'd like to. The debate is not my forte. I have a career 0-6 record in formal debates. I know my weaknesses.

It appears that the soapbox is way too convenient.

Besides, the debate is set-up with a moderator and the whole nine. If you argument(s) has any weight, then I suggest you put it out there for all to see. Otherwise, it doesn't mean much.

muffler dragon · Nov 12, 2004

well said, Andy.

rainingangel · Nov 16, 2004

I do not want to debate, only to voice my opinion.

I believe in Tithing.
I believe what the bible says about Tithing.

I believe in my tithing to my home church, because I dont want to have cursed money in my pocket.
I believe in tithing because it helps the church be ran, the electricity to be on, the music to be played.
So if you dont pay tithes you maybe shouldnt use the bathroom at church, the tissue paper, you shouldnt enjoy the music, you should sit with your eyes closed, because without tithe paying members of any church you wouldnt have these things.

Tithing

Watching Servant

Ineffable

Ineffable

Ineffable

Trying to walk in His dust...............

Trying to walk in His dust...............

Watching Servant

ONE BODY

Trying to walk in His dust...............

Ineffable

Ineffable

Ineffable

Watching Servant

Ineffable

Veteran

Bible Thumper

Trying to walk in His dust...............

Ineffable

Ineffable

Active Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency