Tithing:

swifteagle said:

Andyman ~ Produce and animals were the currency of their day!!

FYI

swifteagle ><>

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Thank you for making that point.

BTW not everyone was a farmer or rancher back then. What about scribes, carpenters and govenment officials, who were paid in silver? The whole point of the OT tithe and the NT principle of giving was two fold. 1) the pragmatic and practical, i.e. someone's gotta support the priests and pay for the temple stuff and 2) the awknowlgement that we can trust God. We show that by our giving. Kinda like talk is cheap or put your money where your mouth is.

I've heard many, many sermons and arguments about giving or tithing to 'get blessed'. All of those arguments really sadden me.

This year I finally joined a church home, and I happily tithe. Why? Not because it is 'the law', but this is where I visit the 'house of God' and like any other household, everyone should contribute to its running.

If I lived in another home with a group of people, we would all collectively contribute to make sure the home ran well...

Same goes for the church. It IS my home that God, in his grace, allows me to dwell in. I am happy to contribute...

Every week/month, a portion of my income is set aside to support my own household, and I also set aside a portion of my income for the church.

Are we 'supposed' to...dunno, and I can't really argue about it. Will I get blessings as a result of giving? dunno. God blesses my in so many ways, I'm not going to quibble on why he does it...He is good, and I am grateful...everyday.

probinson said:

God needs us to tithe to bless us, ...

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Not even looking at the fact the the Lord *needs* nothing ...

The Scriptures say that the Lord causes His sun to shine on the righteous and unrighteous alike and causes the rain to fall on both . Both of these are blessings and given to all regardless of what they do .

Jim M said:

I am not sure I understand this giving-to-get rewards logic. Why should God &#8216;reward&#8217; us for giving back to Him something that already belongs to Him? Should we expect a reward for not stealing?

~Jim

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I don't understand , either . I have all I need in Jesus the Christ . Bribing Him to give me more ... I just don't know .

swifteagle said:

Andyman ~ Produce and animals were the currency of their day!!

FYI

swifteagle ><>

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Currency was currency in the day of the tithe . Food was food .

swifteagle said:

Andyman ~ Produce and animals were the currency of their day!!

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Read where Abraham buried Sarah, he paid 400 Shekels for her grave, not 400 cows, or 400 chickens................that was some 400+ years before the Torah was given, so again, both Scripturally and historically to say that "produce and animals were the currency of the day" is not accurate at all................once again context is key.

SNPete said:

BTW not everyone was a farmer or rancher back then. What about scribes, carpenters and govenment officials, who were paid in silver? .

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Most ancient Jewish sources give no indication that these people tithed as they had no increase to tithe from, their income was the result of an exchange for services rendered.

SNPete said:

The whole point of the OT tithe and the NT principle of giving was two fold. 1) the pragmatic and practical, i.e. someone's gotta support the priests and pay for the temple stuff and

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Technically the tithe supported the Levities, the poor, the fatherless, the widow and the aliens living in Israel. To "pay" for the Temple "stuff" one paid a Temple tax to keep it running.

SNPete said:

2) the awknowlgement that we can trust God. We show that by our giving. Kinda like talk is cheap or put your money where your mouth is.

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Chapter and verse from God's Holy inspired infallible Word in context please that the tithe is or changed to currency.

Since you seem to be such and advocate of the tithe, read Deuteronomy 14, once a year do you take your monthly tithe and go have a huge feast with your family? Do you go buy stong drink with it? That's what God's Holy inspired infallible Word says to do with it..........

SNPete said:

Aren't we being a tad legalistic here? The spirit of giving to the Church and pastors is shown in 1Cor.9

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First, I’m not being legalistic (which I find totally ironic coming from someone advocating the “requirement” of the tithe today), I’m being Biblically accurate a concept that seems to be lost on some.

SNPete said:

Hmm. see Deut 14:24-25. As my momma use to say; Never say never.

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That currency was taken to Jerusalem to buy grain/produce/animals for the tithe, the currency was not the tithe itself, please read the whole chapter that should help…………

SNPete said:

From your posts, I perceive that you do not give any money or time to the Church or the work of the Lord. Am I mistaken in this assumption?

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I would thank you not to make assumptions about my giving. But since you asked I would be more than happy to share how my family gives.

First, according to the Scriptures all time is God’s time and time with God, so for my family we recognize that we are doing the work of the ministry wherever we go, not just at church. With that said I am the leader of the college ministry at our church and teach several times during the week (I’m a lay person my “real” job is an engineer), and my wife is very active in the choir/praise team and mentors the female college students, and my 1 year old son is even part of the greeter ministry.

Second, we use the understanding set fourth by John the Baptist about what the community of the Messiah will look like. He said, those that have two tunics should give to those who have none. So for us, even last night, we had two lawn mowers (both less than two years old) I gave one away, same thing a year ago when we had two computers I made sure it went to a student in our community that didn’t have much.

The 10% of my income that we give goes to benevolence type ministries or directly to help people that have nothing to eat or a place to stay – remember in Matthew 25:44-45 Jesus says when you don’t help those in need you aren’t helping Him. We also give in addition to that as we see people in need, so like Andry said, if I only gave 10% I’d have a lot more money to spend.

One other thing, you seem to assert that giving or doing things for God happens in the context of a church, I’ll need chapter and verse on that – for my family giving and serving God is a 24/7 activity whether we are at church, home, work, the grocery store, I’m on a 50 mile bike ride, or I’m mowing my lawn it’s all for God.

FollowingJesus said:

I've heard many, many sermons and arguments about giving or tithing to 'get blessed'. All of those arguments really sadden me.

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New_Wineskin said:

I don't understand , either . I have all I need in Jesus the Christ . Bribing Him to give me more ... I just don't know .

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I've heard many christians make incorrect statements like this. Does the Bible sadden you? It must, because as I've stated repeatedly in this thread it's God, not me, who tells me in Malachi that he will bless me more than I have room enough to receive when I bring my tithes into the storehouse.

How dare someone say that I have to "bribe" God to give me more when I am simply following His word and claiming a promise that is already mine. That is clearly the wrong attitude and is an attempt to make tithers seem like greedy money-hungry heathens who are just in it for the money.

Let me reiterate, the blessing that you receive from tithing is from your obedience to follow God's word. I will never understand why people reject God's promises for their lives. But, that's your perogative, as God has given us all free will.

probinson said:

Jim,

Consider the following scriptures in Malachi 3:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. 11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. 12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.

This is really a cool area of scripture because God is saying to us, "Go ahead! Test me! See if I won't bless you!" God is telling us to give our tithes and offerings to Him so that he can bless us. It sure sounds to me like God is saying that there are rewards for those that tithe.

Do I give to get? Yes and no. I would be foolish to give and expect nothing in return when God tells us that he will pour out a blessing on us. God is telling us how to tap in to His supernatural provision. But on the other hand, I do not give primarily for my own personal gain. I give because I want to be blessed, but also so that I can be a blessing to others. God knows the motive of the giver, and that's the difference.

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Malachi was still under Law, Pete. A close reading of Malachi will show you that this book was primarily written to the priests who were violating the law and causing the nation to fail.

Read this (Mal 2.1-9):
Malachi 3 is addressed to those priests who have violated the Law and brought ruin on their nation (Mal 3):
Reading Malachi in its historical/scriptural context, because of the treachery of the priesthood judgment was coming upon the nation (which it did) but God offered that He would show Himself strong on their behalf if they would “prove” Him. One of the ways they would do this would be in the giving of the tithe.

That’s the way I read Malachi.

Anyhow, Malachi was under the Law and writing on God’s behalf to people under Law. It was enforcing an ordinance of the Law.

~Jim

Jim M said:

Anyhow, Malachi was under the Law and writing on God’s behalf to people under Law. It was enforcing an ordinance of the Law.

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The Law is referred to as a curse. Are you implying that God, who has set up this wonderful avenue for blessing His people would suddenly do away with this? God sent Jesus to free us from the curse, not the blessing. Sounds like we're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

probinson said:

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The Law is referred to as a curse. Are you implying that God, who has set up this wonderful avenue for blessing His people would suddenly do away with this? God sent Jesus to free us from the curse, not the blessing. Sounds like we're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

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No it sounds like some are picking and choosing what they want from the Law. You fundamentally misunderstand that passage from Malachi, the point was that people were not taking care of those in need (which is what the tithe did, do some research during Malachi's time there was a terrible famine.............context context context) and God is fundamentally saying when you don't take care of those I went to great lengths to ensure their needs were met you are robbing Me.

Since there is no Temple today, or no Levities we can't tithe, Biblically that is.

What an utter shame that so many Christians have absolutely no understanding of the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. Or of the difference between the Levitical priesthood and the Priesthood of Melchizedek. It's really no wonder the "church" is in such an abominable state. And some of these who don't have any understanding are "ministers". It's really incredible.....a great horror.

probinson said:

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The Law is referred to as a curse. Are you implying that God, who has set up this wonderful avenue for blessing His people would suddenly do away with this? God sent Jesus to free us from the curse, not the blessing. Sounds like we're throwing the baby out with the bath water.

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Yep. That's what I am inferring. Heck, it is what I am saying!! I am saying that the “blessing” of the tithe was given to a particular people (the priests) for a particular situation (spiritual regression) at a particular time (during the dispersion). To make it apply to all people in all situations at all times is to do an injustice to the truth it really teaches.

BTW, I know people who NEVER tithe (heck, they don’t even give to charitable causes) but who live in astounding wealth and excellent health. On the other hand, I know people who faithfully tithe but who live from paycheck to paycheck in poor health and can barely pay their bills. This sad situation is so common that I’ll bet you see it in your church and community, too.

In fact, one of the most bighearted Christians I know (at least as far as giving to his church is concerned) recently lost his business and suffered being evicted from his home when the bank foreclosed on his mortgage. How do you explain that with your tithing doctrine?

If the “promise” of Malachi 3 is as infallible to people today as you infer, then why doesn’t it work?

My Mom used to say, “The proof of the pie is in the pudding and the proof of the pudding is in the eating.” If your doctrine is true then it should work. Perfectly.

IMO.

~Jim

Jim M said:

If the “promise” of Malachi 3 is as infallible to people today as you infer, then why doesn’t it work?

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It's not for me to say why tithing doesn't "work" for some people. That's between them and God. It's up to each believer to commune with God and find out why tithing isn't "working" for them.

Keep in mind that no matter how wonderful someone may appear on the outside, we have absolutely no idea what is going on in their heart. Only God knows the heart of the believer. Most people would rather just dismiss tithing as false doctrine than to really examine themselves and see why they're not being blessed. It's a lot easier to say the blessing of tithing has been done away with than to look at yourself and say, maybe this has something to do with me.

I have tithed since I started my part-time job in high school and I have been blessed tremendously because of it. You may argue all you want about how it doesn't work, but you'll never convince me otherwise because I have eaten the pudding, and it is good

The problem is Biblically you didn't tithe, unless of course you took animals/grain/produce to the Temple and gave it to the Levites...............

Andyman_1970 said:

The problem is Biblically you didn't tithe, unless of course you took animals/grain/produce to the Temple and gave it to the Levites...............

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That's just absurd. For one, I am not a farmer and as such do not have animals, grain or produce to take to the Temple and I don't personally know any Levites. That does not change the fact that I am being obedient to God.

probinson said:

That's just absurd. For one, I am not a farmer and as such do not have animals, grain or produce to take to the Temple and I don't personally know any Levites. That does not change the fact that I am being obedient to God.

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So if your truly being obedient as you say, please cite chapter and verse where the tithe "switched" from grain/produce/animals to currency. Also kindly cite to me chapter and verse where the tithe "switched" from taking care of the needs of the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien to paying the salaries of huge church staff's and building buildings. Also kindly cite to me where the tithe "switched" from the specific people and place it was to be taken (the Temple and Levites) to what it is now.

It's not absurd it's Biblical. IMO to assert that one really does tithe today is to misuse God's Holy infallible inspired Word. The problem is when people lift the Scriptures out of the historical, cultural, and linguisitic context in which it was orginally written, man can and regularly does insert his own flawed interpretation of the Text.............like in this case.

So again, feel free to cite me those passages where the tithe "changed" to what it has become today...........otherwise I'm not interesting in people flawed contextless interpretation of God's Holy Word.

probinson said:

That's just absurd. For one, I am not a farmer and as such do not have animals, grain or produce to take to the Temple and I don't personally know any Levites. That does not change the fact that I am being obedient to God.

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Amen. They might as well say you can't use the radio or TV to preach the gospel becos the Bible doesnt have the words "radio" and "TV".

Andyman_1970 said:

So if your truly being obedient as you say, please cite chapter and verse where the tithe "switched" from grain/produce/animals to currency. Also kindly cite to me chapter and verse where the tithe "switched" from taking care of the needs of the Levites/poor/fatherless/widow/alien to paying the salaries of huge church staff's and building buildings. Also kindly cite to me where the tithe "switched" from the specific people and place it was to be taken (the Temple and Levites) to what it is now.

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If you've attended a church where all they do with the tithes and offerings is pay the huge salaries of the staff and build buildings, then you have corruption in your leadership and I would prayerfully consider going somewhere else.

At my church, our tithes and offerings are used to pay the salaries of the pastor and the staff, pay for general upkeep on the existing building, and plan for expansions. BUT we ALSO regularly help families in need, pay unpaid bills for those struggling, give groceries to those who need food, etc. It's a testimony to the great blessings God has given our church, even though we're one of the smaller churches in my town. It's called balance, something which you do not seem to understand.

I am fed spiritually at my church. I grow because of the spirtual "meat" that I partake of there. This is why I tithe, so that there is meat in the house.

Andyman_1970 said:

...man can and regularly does insert his own flawed interpretation of the Text.............like in this case.

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I couldn't agree more.