Tithing and blessings?

5And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham.



12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

Frogster said:

5And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham.



12For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

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It's really good to see you are trying to knock some sense into that head of your's, but you need to try harder. So far it's not working.

David64 said:

It's really good to see you are trying to knock some sense into that head of your's, but you need to try harder. So far it's not working.

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okaaay..that was a b, not bad...

New_Wineskin said:

Cash was as plentiful then as it had to be . That is why there were money changers . When living by commands , the letter is to be followed . Change in times and conditions do not allow for a change in the command . The commands for tithing mentioned only agriculture .

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What I can't seem to get anyone from the pro-tithe camp, as supporting evidence for their belief in the tithe for today, is one example, just ONE example, of a commandment for wage earners (those who owned no producing lands, herds or flocks) to hand over any percentage of their wages as a tithe.

The fishermen were not required to hand over every tenth fish, the clothiers were not required to hand over every tenth yard of cloth, nor the carpenters to hand over every tenth chair they produced, but people today seem to believe in the pagan magic of transforming the OT tithe into something that doesn't resemble ANYTHING found in scripture.

They seem incapable of discerning the difference between wages (an EXCHANGE of money for labor, skills and/or time) and INCREASE (which comes ONLY from the hand of God originating from a mechanism God created apart from any power or effort on the part of man).

BTW

Something else I can't quite figure out is how anyone can sleep at night knowing that they've handed over the primary portion of their so-called giving (that which COULD have been used to meet REAL needs) to something from which they reap direct benefit, and call that their "giving" unto the Lord.

What one hands over to organized religion is similar to what they do at local Moose and Elk lodges, and even the Masonic Lodge.

Organized religion continues to succeed at duping the masses.

BTW

BeforeThereWas said:

What one hands over to organized religion is similar to what they do at local Moose and Elk lodges, and even the Masonic Lodge.

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Exactly.

The gospel is FREE to everyone. There is no charge for the gospel.

When you go to a seminar, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to a concert, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to social events, you usually have to pay to attend.

Why does one "go to" church? Maybe for the following reasons:
1. For instruction / education in God's Word
2. To worship The Lord
3. For prayer and/or to pray
4. For entertainment (the music, etc.)
5. For fellowship / socializing

WE go to church so that WE can get instruction and education in God's Word, so that WE can worship The Lord, so that WE can participate in prayer, so that WE can be entertained and enjoy the music, and so that WE can fellowship or socialize.

WE benefit from going to church services. When WE give our offerings, is it not to PAY for what WE have received from the service? Is that giving to God, or is that paying for a service WE have received?

Who is getting the money? Is it God? Or does the money go to PAY for salaries, the building, utilities, etc., ALL of which WE benefit from?

I am all for PAYING the preacher for his services. And when I attend services, I want to be cool in the summer and warm in the winter, and I am willing to help PAY for the building and utilities. Common sense tells me I am paying for what I am benefiting from, and if I pay more than my share, I make it possible for others to attend who cannot afford to pay their share.

But my true GIVING is when I give directly to those in need.

The modern-day corporate church organization is run like a business, AND makes church goers believe they should be attending church services every Sunday throughout their life. NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES. We are to learn enough to be disciples, and then go teach others. That is how to spread the Good News. Local churches do very little to spread the Word. They preach to the same bunch, more or less, week after week, month after month, year after year. Most church goers depend on the pastor for hearing the Word rather than LEARN IT themselves and then pass it on to others. VERY SAD how corporate church organizations have failed God.

BeforeThereWas said:

What I can't seem to get anyone from the pro-tithe camp, as supporting evidence for their belief in the tithe for today, is one example, just ONE example, of a commandment for wage earners (those who owned no producing lands, herds or flocks) to hand over any percentage of their wages as a tithe.

The fishermen were not required to hand over every tenth fish, the clothiers were not required to hand over every tenth yard of cloth, nor the carpenters to hand over every tenth chair they produced, but people today seem to believe in the pagan magic of transforming the OT tithe into something that doesn't resemble ANYTHING found in scripture.

They seem incapable of discerning the difference between wages (an EXCHANGE of money for labor, skills and/or time) and INCREASE (which comes ONLY from the hand of God originating from a mechanism God created apart from any power or effort on the part of man).

BTW

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Excellant examples . I haven't even thought about the fishermen . Whenever I do use it , it will be because of your contribution . I would like to add the hired hand such as the one parable the Lord used with resect to people hanging out and others hiring them for the day . There are also those who work in a household ( maid , cook , etc ) .

They go along with it without supporting evidence for one of two reasons ... Tradition . These "bible believers" do not and wil not study the Scriptures when they presented a doctrine by their leaders . All they do is parrot what their leaders say and will not look their support up even when shown by others . The reason comes from the leaders themselves . They want to force their members to pay for their salaries under the threat of hell for not observing the Law .

They do not trust their people to give generously for the maintainance of their clubs . Nor will they "lower" themselves to present it as truth to what it really is ... a membership fee . They want it to be religious and "tithe" is religious . This is about control and greed and downright dishonesty .

It is simple . Present a budget to the people on which they can agree . Then divide it by the nimber of those who wish to be members . The members can volunteer to pay the fees for those who cannot . After that , all can give to the needy directly to those places they approve individually . What is wrong with that ?

You brought up some good talking points:

GaryArnold said:

When you go to a seminar, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to a concert, you usually have to pay to attend. When you go to social events, you usually have to pay to attend.

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But the religionist will counter with comments such as, "WE don't charge to attend our services."

Where it's true that some preachers don't hammer on the tithe requirement, many do, and doing so is most generally based upon the tactic of guilt, similar to feeling guilty after having successfully sneaked into an event without paying where payment was required. I don't see the difference.

Why does one "go to" church?

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Nobody "goes to" church. How do we go to what we are?

Maybe for the following reasons:
1. For instruction / education in God's Word

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...which can take place almost anywhere.

2. To worship The Lord

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...except that MOST people have not one clue what TRUE worship encompasses.

The concept so many people harbor that basically includes the assumption that one can turn on TRUE worship (that which is acceptable before the Father) as they would a light switch simply by walking into a so-called sanctuary, participating in the sing-along, praying, stand-up-sit-down-fight-fight-fight, well, all that completely misses the biblical rendition of TRUE worship.

In other words, when worship isn't LIVED throughout the week, it certainly isn't going to suddenly activate because of proximity to a religious service.

3. For prayer and/or to pray

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Which should never have a beginning or end, therefore already taking place before entering the clubhouse.

4. For entertainment (the music, etc.)

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...in addition to all the other entertainments throughout the week...

5. For fellowship / socializing

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Socializing does indeed take place, but not necessarily fellowship. How does one fellowship with the backs of other people's heads?

WE go to church so that WE can get instruction and education in God's Word,

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What I wonder is, at what point does one finally reach a maturation point where they're able to fly on their own? Why have we allowed the perpetual sheepdom syndrome to become so deeply set into practice and the psyche of the believing community?

so that WE can worship The Lord,

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This one deals with what I have said already in this post: Worshipping the Lord should be a never-ending way of life for believers. The word of God never commands what is called corporate worship, although we have the freedom to go through the motions of such, with everyone on their knees in unison.

Oops. That doesn't happen, does it? Most don't want to dirty the knees of their funny costumes. Some are so intellectual that any expression of spiritual life is looked upon with humorous indifference.

so that WE can participate in prayer,

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...another reality that should never end. When Jesus prayed, He went off alone, and instructed such to us.

Matt 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

I realize that isn't to be taken literally, but...

Most assume that when the NT believers prayed coporately, for example, when Peter was in prison, they were all together in the same room, right? Therefore they had to be praying out loud for the others to hear the prayers of the other...right?

I often marvel when so many, so easily, without reservation, force scripture into conformity to the framework of modern dogmas, traditions and practices, as if they all came from scripture.

WE benefit from going to church services. When WE give our offerings, is it not to PAY for what WE have received from the service?

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Religious productions do cost money, and those who take in such things should pay for them as they do the R and PG-13 rated movies they support with their money.

To believe there is such a thing as spiritual productions is to believe in an oxymoron.

Is that giving to God, or is that paying for a service WE have received?

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Foolishly, MOST believe it's giving to God. I still haven't figured that one out.

Ooooh. But we're bound to hear about the token outreaches that originate from a very small percentage of what's taken in from the tithes and offerings. If a prostitute hands over a small percentage of her intake from services rendered, I don't see that the services she rendered automatically become sanctified. Imagine that.

I am all for PAYING the preacher for his services. And when I attend services, I want to be cool in the summer and warm in the winter, and I am willing to help PAY for the building and utilities. Common sense tells me I am paying for what I am benefiting from, and if I pay more than my share, I make it possible for others to attend who cannot afford to pay their share.

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Except, for most, that which is handed over to the organization is either all or most of what they have available for meeting genuine needs, which translates over into the realm of robbing God.

When genuine needs go unmet because of what is routinely handed over to religious organizations, Jesus included THAT into what He said when stating:

Matt 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

But my true GIVING is when I give directly to those in need.

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Amen.

The modern-day corporate church organization is run like a business, AND makes church goers believe they should be attending church services every Sunday throughout their life. NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES.

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Amen.

Good stuff to talk about.

BTW

Religionists exploit the ambiguities in language, one of the biggest being "church".

New_Wineskin said:

Excellant examples . I haven't even thought about the fishermen . Whenever I do use it , it will be because of your contribution .

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Isn't the Lord wonderful? When asking Him for HIS Truth in the place of the false truths taught by men, He is always faithful and true to provide such to those who ask.

1 Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I would like to add the hired hand such as the one parable the Lord used with resect to people hanging out and others hiring them for the day . There are also those who work in a household ( maid , cook , etc ) .

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Yes, and not one of them were commanded to hand over any portion of their wages to the Levites, the priests, or any other apart from the tax collectors.

One brave/foolish soul dared to try and confront this with the widow who gave her two mites in the sight of Jesus and His disciples. They dared to try and connect that to the modern concept of the tithe and offerings.

That individual seemed to develop amnesia when I asked about her two mites having been given in plain sight for all to see, in relation to what we're instructed for today.

Matt 6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

They failed to comprehend the differences that existed between those who were under the Mosaic Law, and those of us who are on the other side of the passing of that Cup of the New Covenant.

I really get a kick from the reactions I get from the pro-tithe gang after they trapse blindly into the ditch of Jesus' mention of the tithe to the scribes and teachers.

What I confront them with is the healed man who was commanded by that same Jesus to go and offer up burnt offerings of thanksgiving to the Lord for the healing he received. I never can figure out how they get around not doing that, but thinking tithes are required by mere mention from the lips of Jesus. He mentioned BOTH, but they teach only the latter.

The term subjectivity seems to have no meaning to them on this count.

They fail to realize just how much alike they are to the pharasees and those very scribes.

They go along with it without supporting evidence for one of two reasons ... Tradition . These "bible believers" do not and wil not study the Scriptures when they presented a doctrine by their leaders .

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Oh, that's HUGE.

The only explanation I have for those who refuse to take responsibility for what they claim to believe (by reading scripture for what it actually says, and receiving revelation from the Holy Spirit) is that they are nothing more than mere religionists.

2 Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

All they do is parrot what their leaders say and will not look their support up even when shown by others .

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They are what I would call the workers of iniquity. These workers of iniquity scoff when told that God actually hates some people:

Ps 5:5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

What greater expression of hatred is there?

What greater expression of intolerance is there?

And yet, the lethargy induced by the deadly warm fuzzies institutionalized religion provides lulls them into the sleep of the spiritually dead.

I have no use for such.

The reason comes from the leaders themselves . They want to force their members to pay for their salaries under the threat of hell for not observing the Law .

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Matt 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

BTW