Tithe

Bryan Lim said:

'This is Christianity, not the Mafia'
lol, seebs. you made my day by making me laugh hard.
anyway, thanks for your input. vey much appreciated.

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Bryan,

Please take the time to look into the post I made elsewhere. This will give you the low-down on tithing in the Tanakh (OT). As you'll be able to see, it is not pertinent now unless your heart is moved in such a direction.

m.d.

A tithe? At my Church we just jyust some money into the little things that go around. The money goes to the upkeep of the Church and Graveyard and other things in the Parish. We can but in as much as you like. You don't even have to put money in! About 2 or 4 times a year, there is a collection for the priests. Thats the only money that they get from what we put in.

NKJV
Matthew 23:23

Shows us that it ISNT an Old Testament Ruling that can now be ignored! The lord jesus again reconfirmed that this is one of his Relevant laws. In this verse he states that people may well concentrate on these lawas specifically and disregard others. And he says that shudnt be done! He says you shud obide by all of them!Including 'tithing'!!

A Tithe as we know it isnt our Tithe
Its GODS tithe!
It would be wrong to keep what belongs to GOD from GOD!

ianridpath said:

NKJV
Matthew 23:23

Shows us that it ISNT an Old Testament Ruling that can now be ignored! The lord jesus again reconfirmed that this is one of his Relevant laws. In this verse he states that people may well concentrate on these lawas specifically and disregard others. And he says that shudnt be done! He says you shud obide by all of them!Including 'tithing'!!

A Tithe as we know it isnt our Tithe
Its GODS tithe!
It would be wrong to keep what belongs to GOD from GOD!

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Matthew 23

23"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Dear Ianridpath:

You need to study this a little more in-depth. I also suggest that you look at my former post, or even check out this rather lengthy set:

http://www.christianforums.com/t702633

From your Scripture above, I can see that you don't know the complete foundation of the tithe, so I shall be gentle and strictly discuss the Matthew verse.

As you can see, I highlighted the three herbs: dill, mint and cummin. Have you ever given consideration to the fact that these three are just what they are? Do you realize that the tithe had nothing to do with money?

Before you lambast me for being disobedient to the Will of G-d, I suggest you do your homework or at least read what I have posted elsewhere. I believe you might find that it opens the eyes.

m.d.

Tithing isn't just about money and if you don't have money to give, give more of something else. For example, give more of your time to God through praying or volunteering. Use your house/apartment as a location for a bible study. I've been to chruches where they claim that if you don't tithe 10%, God will not listen to you as much, won't spend as much time with you, etc. This is quite simply not true and any church that makes this claim will not get my money and shouldn't get yours. I don't give to a church, I make donations to the United Way and other organizations; this is my method of tithing. Tithing is very subjective and God isn't a tyrant king who will put you in jail for not paying your taxes.

prestonw said:

Tithing isn't just about money and if you don't have money to give, give more of something else. For example, give more of your time to God through praying or volunteering. Use your house/apartment as a location for a bible study. I've been to chruches where they claim that if you don't tithe 10%, God will not listen to you as much, won't spend as much time with you, etc. This is quite simply not true and any church that makes this claim will not get my money and shouldn't get yours. I don't give to a church, I make donations to the United Way and other organizations; this is my method of tithing. Tithing is very subjective and God isn't a tyrant king who will put you in jail for not paying your taxes.

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There is no governing principle at all regarding a tithe.

If you give, then give. But the tithe is null and void.

m.d.

prestonw said:

God isn't a tyrant king who will put you in jail for not paying your taxes.

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I understand your thoughts on it being subjective, and i have to agree, obviously you dont give money to the churches that bribe u into giving them money for their benefit etc etc, however that last sentence....i have to disagree on!

God says we DO have to pay our taxes and obey the laws of our land!
Matthew 22:21
"...Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesers and to God the things that are Gods"

As the explanation reads at the bottom of this page on my bible...
"Our citezenship in the nation requires that we pay money for the services and benefits we recieve. Our citenzenship in the kingdom of heaven requires we pledge to God our primary obedience and commitment."



Right, the fish fingers are calling me!
I'll be back later to see how this turns out!

Well, I really meant "God isn't a tyrant king who will put you in jail for not paying your taxes" as a metaphor to suggest that God will not damn you to hell simply for not tithing as a king in medieval times would put someone in jail for not paying there taxes.

ianridpath said:

I understand your thoughts on it being subjective, and i have to agree, obviously you dont give money to the churches that bribe u into giving them money for their benefit etc etc, however that last sentence....i have to disagree on!

God says we DO have to pay our taxes and obey the laws of our land!
Matthew 22:21
"...Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesers and to God the things that are Gods"

As the explanation reads at the bottom of this page on my bible...
"Our citezenship in the nation requires that we pay money for the services and benefits we recieve. Our citenzenship in the kingdom of heaven requires we pledge to God our primary obedience and commitment."



Right, the fish fingers are calling me!
I'll be back later to see how this turns out!

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Huh? How can something be null and void if there isn't a governing priciple behind it? Are you saying if I don't funnel my money through a church it doesn't count?

muffler dragon said:

There is no governing principle at all regarding a tithe.

If you give, then give. But the tithe is null and void.

m.d.

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prestonw said:

Huh? How can something be null and void if there isn't a governing priciple behind it? Are you saying if I don't funnel my money through a church it doesn't count?

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It might be of assistance if you would read my other posts and the ones I have referenced.

The tithe no longer exists.

m.d.

Tithing and offering are all issues of the heart. Its not so much about how much but about why? Are you giving out of the pure joy and desire in your heart, or because you think its the right thing to do? If your giving is because of the latter, don't give.
God loves a cheerful giver.
IMHO
In Him

inHisgrip said:

Tithing and offering are all issues of the heart. Its not so much about how much but about why? Are you giving out of the pure joy and desire in your heart, or because you think its the right thing to do? If your giving is because of the latter, don't give.
God loves a cheerful giver.
IMHO
In Him

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There is nothing wrong with giving. There is nothing wrong with offerings. All I am saying is that the tithe no longer exists.

m.d.

In your opinion!

It has absolutely nothing to do with opinion.

As stated before and stated again, look at my other posts. Read all that I have referenced. If you have questions, then come back and ask. But until you refute it, it has nothing to do with opinion.

If you want to accept it, because someone else told you it is so, then that is completely within your authority. But don't try to tell me that I just happen to have an opinion on the matter when I have thoroughly researched it and understood it within the context of the Word of G-d.

Now, unless you're just one of those types who likes to interject to irritate, I suggest you put some time into this before you come back on it.

m.d.

How dare you claim that someone elses opinion doesnt count!
It is COMPLETELY to do with opinion.
Some people believe it still has relavence, you clearly dont, either way no-one can claim theyre right until we actually recieve the answers in the new heaven!
I totally believe you have studied it thoroughly. But once youve done this you have now come up with an EDUCATED opinion, Not fact!!! Studying something and taking references from certain portions of the bible doesnt mean to say your as right as anyone else on this matter! Yes you may make valid points and yes you may quote from the bible. But only God is perfect and has all the answers!

And no im i one of those types who likes to interject to irritate!
You cannot say that because i have an opinion different to yours that im wrong!

I do believe it is a matter of opinion!

ianridpath said:

How dare you claim that someone elses opinion doesnt count!
It is COMPLETELY to do with opinion.
Some people believe it still has relavence, you clearly dont, either way no-one can claim theyre right until we actually recieve the answers in the new heaven!
I totally believe you have studied it thoroughly. But once youve done this you have now come up with an EDUCATED opinion, Not fact!!! Studying something and taking references from certain portions of the bible doesnt mean to say your as right as anyone else on this matter! Yes you may make valid points and yes you may quote from the bible. But only God is perfect and has all the answers!

And no im i one of those types who likes to interject to irritate!
You cannot say that because i have an opinion different to yours that im wrong!

I do believe it is a matter of opinion!

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Let's get something straight.

I never said someone else's opinion doesn't matter. I said that this is not a matter of opinion. Big difference.

I don't understand how you can purport this opinion matter on this situation. Do you do this with the rest of the Bible?

Yes, G-d is perfect and has all the answers, but He also made us cognitive, reasoning beings.

I have laid out in great detail what the tithe originally was, how it pertains to men, and why it is no longer a statute/dogma/principle that has to be followed.

If you want to continue to tithe, then that is completely within your own choice. However, if you are looking for Scriptural backing, you will find lack. Tithing is a instrument that has beaten people down within the 'church', and it was never a matter of it being opinion.

Once again, if you want to disagree, then go ahead. But until you prove with Scripture that it is a principle to be followed, my logic, reasoning, and belief is as good as fact. It is above just being an opinion.

I'm not going to continue to argue with you on the grounds of whether it is okay for you and I to differ on how we view the tithe. If you want to debate on the validity of the tithe for today, then by all means, answer what I have written. Otherwise, I think it best that you hold onto your opinion and let it be yours alone. Others might believe the same, but others might not know that you do not have to follow the teaching of men that the tithe is still valid today.

Ive had a shufty at your explanation, now you have a lil gander at this one....
http://www.believers.org/believe/bel122.htm

I would have to agree that tithing is not still considered law. The NT makes it clear that we are to give to others from joy. Yes I do tithe(however I would call it a love offering), but it is not because of law. All christians should give, however it is between God and each individual how much. If we don't give we are saying that the future of the church is not important. To give because a church says it is required is legalistic, and is not true. God knows what each of us are capable of giving and doing. I think to bicker over whether or not someone is right or wrong as to the amount of tithing is crazy. All of these are issues to brought before God, not man.
This is just my opinion.
God Bless
In Him

ianridpath said:

Ive had a shufty at your explanation, now you have a lil gander at this one....
http://www.believers.org/believe/bel122.htm

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Thank you for bringing something to discourse.

Let's look at this in-depth.

Leviticus 27:30 is the first verse in the document, but let's look at it in context.

Leviticus 27:
29 'No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.
30 'Thus (10) all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S; it is holy to the LORD.
31 'If, therefore, a man wishes to redeem part of his tithe, he shall add to it one-fifth of it.
32 'For every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever (11) passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the LORD.
33 '(12) He is not to be concerned whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it; or if he does exchange it, then both it and its substitute shall become holy. It shall not be redeemed.'"
34 (13) These are the commandments which the LORD commanded Moses for the sons of Israel at Mount Sinai.

As one might notice, I highlighted the part about what exactly the tithe is in this passage. It was in regards to the flock. Many people try to allegorize the tithe into money, but there is actually only one section where that happens. I'll show it to you now, just for kicks:

Deuteronomy 14:
22 "You (11) shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow, which comes out of the field every year.
23 "You shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God, (12) at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and your flock, so that you may (13) learn to fear the LORD your God always.
24 "If the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the LORD your God chooses (14) to set His name is too far away from you when the LORD your God blesses you,
25 then you shall exchange it for money, and bind the money in your hand and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.
26 "You may spend the money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen, or sheep, or wine, or strong drink, or whatever your heart desires; and (15) there you shall eat in the presence of the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.

In this instance, the tithe is used as a party celebration to honor the L-rd. If one must travel a distance, then exchange your tithe (produce and livestock) for money so that it can be transported easier. Once you get to the town to celebrate, YOU may spend it on yourself and loved ones. Sounds much different than the tithe today.

Let's continue with your paper.

Nowhere in the paper does it show that tithing is worship (through Scripture), but it purports it as truth for a number of paragraphs.

1 Corinthians 9
9 For it is written in the Law of Moses, "(15) YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING." God is not concerned about (16) oxen, is He?
10 Or is He speaking altogether for our sake? Yes, (17) for our sake it was written, because (18) the plowman ought to plow in hope, and the thresher to thresh in hope of sharing the crops.
11 (19) If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? 12 If others share the right over you, do we not more? Nevertheless, we (20) did not use this right, but we endure all things (21) so that we will cause no hindrance to the (22) gospel of Christ.
13 (23) Do you not know that those who (24) perform sacred services eat the food of the temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share from the altar?
14 So also (25) the Lord directed those who proclaim the (26) gospel to (27) get their living from the gospel.
15 But I have (28) used none of these things. And I am not writing these things so that it will be done so in my case; for it would be better for me to die than have any man make (29) my boast an empty one.
16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for (30) I am under compulsion; for woe is me if I do not preach (31) the gospel.
17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a (32) reward; but if against my will, I have a (33) stewardship entrusted to me.
18 What then is my (34) reward? That, when I preach the gospel, I may offer the gospel (35) without charge, so as (36) not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

Once again, the passage so that a pastor can validate taking his wages from the tithe. The tithe was for the Levite. The Levite was a priest before G-d because of bloodline and geneology. It had nothing to do with calling. The Levitical priesthood no longer exists. And pastors will try to spiritualize this situation by saying they in fact are operating in the same capacity. This is not true. They do not offer up sacrifices on the behalf of the assembly. Moreover, we are all called to be ministers of the gospel. Therefore, both you and I supposedly have a stake in the money making matters of the church. If you want to enact the tithe, which once again is produce and livestock (not money), then I suggest you take a Levite a cow and some ears of corn.

Numbers 18
21 "To the sons of Levi, behold, I have given all the (1) tithe in Israel for an inheritance, in return for their service which they perform, the service of the tent of meeting.

Once again, these are actual people. Not pastors or ministers.

Blessings and curses.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For (1) as many as are the promises of God, (2) in Him they are yes; therefore also through Him is (3) our Amen to the glory of God through us.

Promises do not equal OT blessings. This is something that the author is clutching for. Moreover, if he really wants to be accountable for all the blessings of the OT, he better be ready for all the curses as well. But then again, we have to ask, is the author a Jew? Since I don't know, it's really a moot point as to a lot of the OT promises and blessings.

Malachi 3
10 "(1) Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not (2) open for you the windows of heaven and (3) pour out for you a blessing until [1] (4) it overflows.

We need to look at this literally. The statement is made to Israel and the storehouse is a storehouse. Let's not try to make this a matter of allegory.

The author has the audacity to state that "anyone who claims Jesus as their L-rd and does not give Him at least ten percent of their money should face the truth: money is their ruler, not Jesus." So who does the tithe go to? Does this author want it to go to the L-rd or to his wallet? There is a big distinction. As stated already before, we are all ministers.

Reasons not to tithe (as stated by the author):

1) Unbelief. In the Savior or in man-made teaching? For me, I chose G-d.
2) Fear. Not really. Maybe some. I'm not seeing where we can draw that conclusion tho.
3) Greed, selfishness. Not the case again. I give to the poor when the L-rd leads.
4) Lack of right teaching. Once again, this is a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

My income does not depend on others giving to me. The author does. Who has the fear now?

Listen, brother, and I mean this gently. Please read all that I have written in my other posts. Go to the referenced thread that has documentation on it. Or just go to Messianic Judaism and look at the tithe threads there. This document does hold up to my short criticism here or on what else has been written.

Let me give you peace in the fact that if you still feel led to tithe, then by all means do not betray your conscience. Just know, not all is what it seems.

m.d.

inHisgrip said:

I would have to agree that tithing is not still considered law. The NT makes it clear that we are to give to others from joy. Yes I do tithe(however I would call it a love offering), but it is not because of law. All christians should give, however it is between God and each individual how much. If we don't give we are saying that the future of the church is not important. To give because a church says it is required is legalistic, and is not true. God knows what each of us are capable of giving and doing. I think to bicker over whether or not someone is right or wrong as to the amount of tithing is crazy. All of these are issues to brought before God, not man.
This is just my opinion.
God Bless
In Him

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Dear Grip:

Thank you for taking the time to write such a pleasant post. I agree that it is a heart issue. The only reason why I bring such things up is because I want people to be aware that there is no law/dogma/principle regarding the tithe that holds them accountable.

I wish I could say that I agree that squabbling over this topic is pointless, but I can't. I am a first-hand witness to the destruction it has caused on many people. Therefore, my conscience propels me forward against the fallacies of said doctrine.

Thanks again.

m.d.