Time for REAL Christian Warriors is NOW !

intricatic · Aug 14, 2006

Judgementalism is only a big problem if you define it as judging between doctrines and philosophies.

I can argue with an objectivist for hours about how objectivism is wrong, and still love the person I'm arguing with. I'd also say that the biggest problem the Church faces right now is not judgementalism, but a softness to the philosophies of the surrounding culture.

WarriorOfChange · Aug 14, 2006

I agree that there is softness in the Church. There is also a lack of passion, here in the USA, about ANYTHING that is deemed NOT Politically Correct, which I also disagree with. If I have to shut my mouth about Christ and his gift to mankind because someone in a school, or a business doesnt want to hear about it, they would have to drag me out. I would rather pay the price to the world for sharing God's word then pat the price when I die to God.

Warrior

WarriorOfChange · Aug 14, 2006

To add to my last comment and the very insightful comments from INTRICATIC, I would say that I do, no matter how much a person throws at me, still have a love for all persons, saved or not saved.

Warrior

Soldier_For_Christ · Aug 14, 2006

Wow. What are we talking about right now?

intricatic · Aug 14, 2006

WarriorOfChange said:
I agree that there is softness in the Church. There is also a lack of passion, here in the USA, about ANYTHING that is deemed NOT Politically Correct, which I also disagree with. If I have to shut my mouth about Christ and his gift to mankind because someone in a school, or a business doesnt want to hear about it, they would have to drag me out. I would rather pay the price to the world for sharing God's word then pat the price when I die to God.

Warrior

Personally, I don't believe politics should be a concern in the Church, but I don't expect other people to agree or follow my example. We do so love our meaningless divisions. I'm only concerned with the important ones.

I hear ya on this one, though. The PC crowd drives me nuts.

To add to my last comment and the very insightful comments from INTRICATIC, I would say that I do, no matter how much a person throws at me, still have a love for all persons, saved or not saved.

Warrior

This is good. It seems to be a rare quality anymore. I take an example from Christ in how I approach doctrine - He had no problem correcting and debating with people who held incorrect ideas. This logically created a lot of division within His audience. But I thought this topic was related to the Church and judgementalism? I can say I'd rather have a Church that promotes a healthy learning experience on Sunday and, hopefully throughout the week, as opposed to a Church that simply wants to attract more people to it. Yet again, these two ideas are generally mutually exclusive of one another, unfortunately. I find that the former has more to offer both believers and unbelievers than the latter almost universally.

lordvoldemort · Aug 14, 2006

intricatic said:
Actually, a "ballance" is not biblical. We're told to be in the world, but not of it. This implies that we're to remain bound to our standard, while the world continues in it's own. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy other people, or enjoy artistic culture, but we can't be bound by it. For a lot of people, that's a really difficult thing to do and as a result, the world sees a lot of "judgemental" Christians when they're really just rejecting postmodern culture.

Being a hermit is just as wrong as emersing yourself in the culture around you. What im talking about is living life, seeing a movie, going out (dancing, and other such events), going to a resturaunt and having dinner (maybe a bottle of wine). Just living. Not surrounding yourself with a bunch of people who think all of what i said is a sin and just sit home and twiddle your thumbs inbetween bible and prayer time.

Christians can not reject culture altogether, doing so will have the same affect monks and hermits had when they went out in the dessert and sit on 90 foot poles, wearing a one piece from 50 years ago looking like death is about to warm him over.

I have no problem with watching a movie, drinking (thought I dont due to a head injury), dancing and such. I was in a college that demanded that its people do no such thing (as if they cant trust their own people).

I find forced limitation to have the exact opposite effect, every christian should make up their own mind according to their conscience and understanding of the bible. Those that force things on people are wrong.

intricatic · Aug 14, 2006

lordvoldemort said:
Being a hermit is just as wrong as emersing yourself in the culture around you. What im talking about is living life, seeing a movie, going out (dancing, and other such events), going to a resturaunt and having dinner (maybe a bottle of wine). Just living. Not surrounding yourself with a bunch of people who think all of what i said is a sin and just sit home and twiddle your thumbs inbetween bible and prayer time.

Christians can not reject culture altogether, doing so will have the same affect monks and hermits had when they went out in the dessert and sit on 90 foot poles, wearing a one piece from 50 years ago looking like death is about to warm him over.

I have no problem with watching a movie, drinking (thought I dont due to a head injury), dancing and such. I was in a college that demanded that its people do no such thing (as if they cant trust their own people).

I find forced limitation to have the exact opposite effect, every christian should make up their own mind according to their conscience and understanding of the bible. Those that force things on people are wrong.

Depends; if the person can't resist the influence of secular society, which it is admittedy a difficult and arduous task, it can be far better, and far more wise, than integrating. I'm in a college that actually promotes that it's students do such things to the reverse extreme, although not officially, and not doing them is considered abnormal and strange. Doesn't generally bother me after seeing the resulting effect it has on many of the students that accept that same secular culture as normal. Afterall, it's much more difficult to be lights in a dark world, if you're placing a shroud over your head.

Soldier_For_Christ · Aug 14, 2006

Well, fortunately, I live in a small, country school where practically all of the teachers and students attend church somewhere. Unfortunately, few of the students live the life they live in church. They claim to be Christians, but that is the furthest thing from their mind except on Sundays and during FCA Meetings. Ironically, I'm held in high respects by most everybody even though it's not really what I want.

I've seen the path of total isolationism...and how it would go against what God wants his people to do. I also walked the path of conformity for a short period of time and saw the destruction that it could bring to my life if I accepted it. One is as dangerous as the other and choosing either extreme would impair God's ability to use you in His Plan.

That reminds me of something I read once...maybe from Mere Christianity, I don't know, but it said that Satan likes hitting us with choices where there are two extremes because it causes people to polarize on either extreme when in truth, both extremes are not what God would want for us.

Take abortion, for example: I don't believe it's right, but I know that fervent hatred for it is destructive. So many church congregations get hung up on it and stop considering that Abortion is only a very small part of Christian doctrine that must be studied and understood. On one extreme side, you have people going around blowing up Abortion clinics and killing the people present in them, which is blatantly wrong. On the other side, you have people who encourage it no matter who says what, which I believe is equally wrong.

That's one example.

intricatic · Aug 14, 2006

I agree completely. We can't completely remove ourselves from the world; then we would be "Not in the world, or of it." But it implies understanding each person's limits, and the standard by which to remain "unspotted from the world".

Be11e · Aug 15, 2006

I disapprove of girls wearing stupidly revealing clothes to church...i admit to judging them, i know i shouldn't, but i can't help it. I don't believe they should be ostrachised and made to feel unwelcome because of it. Maybe those people need God more. I just think it's wrong to dress that way as it can cause lustful thoughts in men.

MikeMcK · Aug 15, 2006

Be11e said:
I disapprove of girls wearing stupidly revealing clothes to church...i admit to judging them, i know i shouldn't, but i can't help it. I don't believe they should be ostrachised and made to feel unwelcome because of it. Maybe those people need God more. I just think it's wrong to dress that way as it can cause lustful thoughts in men.

Have a Godly woman speak to them about it. If they do not change, have two or three bring it up to them.

If they still won't change, then bring it up before the church.

OD3 · Aug 15, 2006

Hmmm. Personally i like it when they flash a bit of skin. Im only human. But not in church. There is an acceptable manner in which to dress for all occations.

Dressing revealingly says "Look at me!" which is fine, for when you are at the mall, or the beach. But not in church man, thats just wrong. The focus should be on God, not on some 18 year old girls ass.

Bernergirl · Aug 15, 2006

Actually, IMO, the focus should be on God 100% of the time... church or no church.

OD3 · Aug 15, 2006

Bernergirl said:
Actually, IMO, the focus should be on God 100% of the time... church or no church.

If that was true, you'd never meet any girls. And driving would be quite dangerous too. Your should focus on the road when driving.

intricatic · Aug 15, 2006

OD3 said:
If that was true, you'd never meet any girls. And driving would be quite dangerous too. Your should focus on the road when driving.

Incorrect. Focusing on God 100% does not imply blinding oneself to the road, or to women.

Soldier_For_Christ · Aug 15, 2006

OD3 said:
If that was true, you'd never meet any girls. And driving would be quite dangerous too. Your should focus on the road when driving.

Hey, man, focusing on God alone doesn't mean that you'll never find a girl. My focus isn't on God as much as it should be and He's shown me whom He wills for me to marry in the future. To say that you won't live as good a life as the next person because you follow God implies that you don't trust that God has your best interests and happiness at heart.

Yody · Aug 15, 2006

Be11e said:
I disapprove of girls wearing stupidly revealing clothes to church...i admit to judging them, i know i shouldn't, but i can't help it. I don't believe they should be ostrachised and made to feel unwelcome because of it. Maybe those people need God more. I just think it's wrong to dress that way as it can cause lustful thoughts in men.

It may be something of a lifestyle

Like lets say the person is a prostitute or something

You cant shun people away cause they look different

Jesus didnt come for the healthy, he came for those in need and maybe the ones wearing skimpy clothes are the ones who most need to be in church

But anyway maybe not. maybe those are the most Godly people oyut there. God looks at your heart not at what your wearing. Maybe we should as well

Loriann97 · Aug 15, 2006

WarriorOfChange said:
OK, so here I am after 3 days of great learning from the Willow Creek Association's Leadership Summit, looking around at what makes us fail as Christians.

I have been a student of this for a long time. I grew up in Southern California, where "how you dress and look" means less than it does here in Kansas, and that needs to be addressed.

I absolutely refuse to wear Khaki's and a golf shirt to Services. Its not me. I dont wear them to work. I dont wear them to family gatherings. Plain and simple, here it is.

I can't stand being around 75% of so-called Christians anymore, and I am a leader in my Church. Yes, I believe in the Bible and I have been saved by the grace of God and my sins are forgiven because Jesus died on the cross for all of us.

Here is a quote from the lead singer of a band that was interviewed for the conference. "It's not Christ that I have a problem with, its Christians. They are judgemental and they are the last to help out when 'certain' social issues arise."

That about states it all.

We have a serious problem with Christianity today in the USA. The majority of Christians would say that I am a sinner because I wear shorts and a tank top with flip-flops to Church on Sunday morning. I say they are full of crap and they need to step up to the plate and see how they would score on a Christian ethics test.

Not that I am saying I am perfect. I dont believe in Gay marriage, however, I am all for stopping the spread of AIDS and agree that if a Gay couple brought a baby to my church to be blessed and baptised, I would gladly say yes to the blessing, but then explain that the proper way to be baptised is to make the choice yourself to outwardly show your faith.

So I will boil this down to one question for all of you out there who are shocked by this and want to "get into it" with me and help solve a serious issue we all face.

What have we accomplished as Christians if we are not only still judgemental of non-believers, but judgemental of fellow believers as well?

Lets Talk about it !!!!!!

"Love thy neighbor" (Whos your neighbor?)

Warrior

There is a difference between being complacent and being judgmental. God has shown us ways of helping people to realize that what they are doing isn't Christ like in a loving and accepting way. It doesn't bother me when people where shorts to church, but some people are just brought up differently.

chocolatecheesecake · Aug 15, 2006

we do need a change, and i long for it. But its not a change we can make, only Jesus can change the heart. So rather then getting frustrated and then stewing over it as i did in the past, turn it in to action. Act through prayer, through fasting, surrender yourself to God to His will. Speak to people about, members of your church. the revelution starts in the heart, its starts with you guys, just because you see no one else 'standing' for Jesus does that mean you sit down? i should hope not!

I was speaking to a wonderful friend of mine, she said that she hopes and prays that she has the faith to be able to keep standing in the faith even if all those she loves and looks up to walk away from Christ. So my brothers and sisters it starts with us, not the whole church in time, through prayer and trust, patients things will change.
oh with the clothing issue? what a pointless thing to talk about, it matters not what a person wears to church, ever. Is not the body worth more the clothes that cover it? all i wear shoe wise is sandles that a good friend gave me, i wear what ever is clean to church, it is not about the outer but the inner, church is fellowship under the name of Jesus. Question, how would you treat a 'working girl' who came into your church? many dress in short skirts that was once called valgur on this same thread, wear lots of make up, before you even spoke to her would u pre-judge her as "un-worthy to come before God"? I should truelly hope not.

look to the heart and the worth of person, not the outer expression.

Peace

chocolatecheesecake · Aug 16, 2006

need to add something into what i wrote, and that is act with all things in love, for example, just because you dont see it does it mean it is not there? we need to learn through the spirit look into the spiritual, see with eyes that go past the flesh and see the heart, the suffering heart, the lost. and then with the leading of Jesus learn to love that person in a true sense. all things are about love! all things are about Jesus!

even if with our blind eyes we do not see Jesus in the lowerest of people, does it mean He is not within them? do not get angry at the 'complacent' people but at the one who has made our generation into what it is, pray against being comfortable, pray to woken up and for our church to be shaken, as we have fallen into a slumber.

above all things remember, love Christ before all else, then through our love for Him love other people.

Time for REAL Christian Warriors is NOW !

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