Thoughts on Freedom From Religion

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Based on what the United states did to homosexuals Native Americans African Americans and women I think it is evident that the United Stateswas not divinely influenced by any God or was the basis of freedom itself

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Well, that's just silly to say. The United States has been influenced by many forces, some in conflict with the others.

But to the point...Who is perfect, then? The atheists and members of religions which do not have a god? I would hope you'd know better than to say that. Most of the murders and oppression of the 20th century were the doing of militantly atheist regimes.

No, you cannot win that argument. But if we admit that every culture has produced some evils (I already admitted that this is so) we need to ask which, if any, have been instrumental in counteracting those evils, too. If we do this, we find that it's 'no contest.'

There is no god and human's still derived a concept of freedom.

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The thread was, I thought, just about freedom from religion. Are you now expanding the discussion of "freedom" to something more general?

God does exist. You may not want to acknowledge Him, but that, by itself, is not an argument for His non-existence.

Such a freedom is truly only a means of gathering resources and continuing our own existence.

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This is your idea of freedom? People have done what you describe here under totalitarian regimes but they would not have proclaimed themselves free! The freedom of most western countries is much more than gathering resources in order to live.

Morality is subjective but few of us wants to be hurt or killed and that's because our genes pursue resources, to spread and continue.

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Your morality may be subjective. Mine is not. And if morality is subjective, then on what basis do you declare anything truly wrong? At best, all you can say about the person who acts in a way you think is immoral is that they have failed to align their conduct with your personal preferences. But your preferences are not binding on anyone else. You are just one human among billions; each of whom have their own preferences.

One of the problems with making raw biology the source of your morality is that the next guy's impulse to spread his genes around may at some point conflict with yours. Whose genes take precedence? Are you espousing "survival of the fittest"?

All of this happens without a god. You may claim that your rejected system is the source of my goodness... cool story bro.

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It's more than a story; it's a fact of history. Apparently, you are poorly studied in this matter.

It's ironic that your system which denies my freedom to be anything other than what your god wants to me to be under threat of death and torture is your basis of freedom.

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Oh? Are there Christians at your door clamoring for your torture and death? It seems to me you live quite freely in opposition to my faith. So, what's the problem? That such freedom arises from a Judeo-Christian belief system doesn't prevent you from living as you like.

Both of us want to be free and that's because our genes cause us to want to live and spread, no god was necessary.

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Uh, no. There would be no human genes, no planet, no universe if God hadn't created it all.

Your god had homosexuals murdered, prostitutes burned alive, children killed, non-believers put down with the sword and you think your system is the source of freedom?

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I don't think it is the source of the rights and freedoms of western societies, I know it is. As I said, it's a fact of history. Unfortunately, you have the common Strawman conception of the God revealed in the Bible that atheists like to put forward. But, like all Strawmen, it is a conveniently-flawed caricature of the real thing.

In Romans 1.32 Paul said sinners deserve to die and you think that is the source of my freedom?

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No, I don't. The Christian conception of morality and the inalienable rights of all humans as created beings are not argued by Christians from just one verse from the Bible.

Selah.

Albion

When Christians murdered and tortured and when atheists did the same... it was because were just central nervous systems seeking to survive. Its evolutionary biology... not a religion or lack thereof. We created freedom, we all want it but we dont often know how to accomplish it without hurting other people

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

Albion

When Christians murdered and tortured and when atheists did the same..We created freedom, we all want it but we dont often know how to accomplish it without hurting other people

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Who's the "we" here? If it were not for Christian society, most of the steps taken away from chaos, slavery, injustice, and bloodshed would not have happened.

Albion said:

Who's the "we" here? If it were not for Christian society, most of the steps taken away from chaos, slavery, injustice, and bloodshed would not have happened.

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I'm not going to open the can of what is and is not an atheist regime, this is something many Christians misunderstand. They mistake a dictator who doesn't believe in a god for an atheistic dictator or regime. Just like a Christian who murders and tortures people, that murder and torture represents their person... not necessarily their religion. But in the case of Christianity, the foundational document itself proclaims that we deserve to die (even in the new testament) and that god will kill and torture us. That isn't freedom, that's freedom to obey or be destroyed.

These people who wanted slavery and wanted to prevent women's right often used the bible as the basis for their ideas.

Christianity is the product of developing biology, it got some things right and some things horribly wrong... a pursuit of freedom is why Christianity came to be.

aiki

If you think that a magical sky man exists and that he kills and tortures people who don't obey and that he is the foundation of freedom itself and that HE is the reason why I want to be free then.... ok!

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

I'm not going to open the can of what is and is not an atheist regime

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There's no need to. We all know the characteristics and orientation of Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Stalin, etc. etc.

this is something many Christians misunderstand. They mistake a dictator who doesn't believe in a god for an atheistic dictator or regime.

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Except that that wasn't being done in this case. We're talking about militantly atheistic, anti-religion, tyrannies. I don't know why we're arguing about this. It's standard history and beyond debating, really. The point is simply that every religion on earth...and every non-religious regime, too...has behaved badly, but one of them is well-known for bringing about the reforms that have made the advances towards liberty, peace, freedom, etc. that you want to claim for yourself. If so, thank a Christian sometime.

Albion

I want to back up and talk about something more peaceable with you because I do think I could enjoy talking to you. I am sorry for my negative approach to Christianity. After recently learning more about it I stopped being a Christian.

I want to be free, I want to be free from religious ideas and I don't want to have live by Christian rules or beliefs and I don't want there to be laws in my land that are based solely upon the bible or anyone's religion for that matter.

Do you think this should be?

Albion

Maybe you should ask the Native Americans and African Americans to thank a Christian. I am aware that it's merely biology.

aiki

If you think that a magical sky man exists and that he kills and tortures people who don't obey and that he is the foundation of freedom itself and that HE is the reason why I want to be free then.... ok!

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Strawman.

Selah.

aiki said:

Strawman.

Selah.

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That your god is a father who lives up in heaven and he kills and tortures people who are not his born again children and that I am not free to escape his death sentence if I do not serve him is not a straw man.

Yes, it is. Your caricature of the God revealed in the Bible is profoundly over-simplified, and highly prejudicial in the exceeding narrowness of its description.

Selah.

Albion

But to the point...Who is perfect, then?

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No one. We're just selfish genes. But Christianity contains very direct messages of torture, hate, murder, tyranny... the things that freedom is supposed to prevent. The things you think your system is the sole protector from.

Confucius and Buddhist monks were peaceful and provided freedom and empathy without a god and long before the United States of America and long before Jesus ever lived.

Stalin wasn't pursuing atheism, he was pursuing his own goals, the abolishment of religion was a means of accomplishing those goals. As you're probably aware atheism has no creeds, no rules, no ideas, no teachings, no requirements, no standards, no form, no restraints, no structure at all. Atheism described no more of him than his fondness for peanut butter does. The rest of his actions represented him as a person, his needs and desires, not his lack of belief in a god. He probably did see theists as an obstacle but that doesn't mean atheism was the source of his crimes.

aiki said:

Yes, it is. Your caricature of the God revealed in the Bible is profoundly over-simplified, and highly prejudicial in the exceeding narrowness of its description.

Selah.

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My refusal to present your god in his most fashionable clothing and provide your ridiculous arguments on your behalf does not constitute a strawman. You're being pretentious.

The more you make these remarks, the more you simply expose your prejudice. In particular, this last comment of yours essentially admits to Strawman arguing. You aren't used to careful thinking and discussion, it seems.

Selah.

aiki said:

The more you make these remarks, the more you simply expose your prejudice. In particular, this last comment of yours essentially admits to Strawman arguing. You aren't used to careful thinking and discussion, it seems.

Selah.

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I think you talk to too many people who care to listen to all the various reasons why you feel the bible is believable... it isn't that I have presented the bible falsely, I just didn't add any fluff.

Kiritsugu Emiyah said:

oh, no it isn't. I'd never hurt or restrain humans the way your god does. I chose not to respond to the majority of your post because I want to stay on topic and not go into areas that are easily confused

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Hey dude. I just meant to clarify the facts about the basis for our Declaration and Bill of Rights originating from the founding father's belief in a divinity. Whether or not you believe in him doesn't change the facts one bit. We might disagree concerning the existance of God, but it doesn't help either one of us to rewrite history in order to support our own personal agenda.

Joshua260 said:

Hey dude. I just meant to clarify the facts about the basis for our Declaration and Bill of Rights originating from the founding father's belief in a divinity. Whether or not you believe in him doesn't change the facts one bit. We might disagree concerning the existance of God, but it doesn't help either one of us to rewrite history in order to support our own personal agenda.

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I never stated or implied that they did not believe in a god and I don't see that as relevant to whether or they wanted a separation between the church and the state and they most certainly did want that separation.

They specifically stated that our constitution was not based upon Christianity. These men were deists and not Christians and some of them held the bible and organized religion or churches in great contempt.

It's perfectly possible that they believed in a god and still did not want religious people shaping the government in a specifically religious way... because this land is made for YOU and ME. This isn't Jesus land. Religious people don't get special treatment.

I think you talk to too many people who care to listen to all the various reasons why you feel the bible is believable...

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Well, what you think in this regard is quite irrelevant. You have little to no idea who I speak to about my faith and what the substance of our conversations might be.

it isn't that I have presented the bible falsely, I just didn't add any fluff.

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No fluff? You have edited the content of the Bible so severely that your description of Christian belief and theology is cartoonish. As I said, you have erected a Strawman. Whether or not you want to admit it, it is still clear to everyone else that you have. When you are willing to relinquish your prejudices sufficiently to talk reasonably about the Christian faith, I'd be happy to discuss it with you. As it stands at the moment, your goal seems to be to vent your prejudice, not recognize and correct it.

Selah.

aiki

You mean cartoonish like virgins have babies, people walking on water, people coming back from the dead, talking donkeys, men actually killing their own children to honor a promise to god, men trying to kill their own kids because god told them to to see if they'd obey, homosexuals being killed outright, daughters being burned for disgracing their dad, people floating to heaven, 2 of nearly ever land creature on a single boat, talking snakes and people living to almost 1000 years old and god using bears to kill little bratty children, death angels from god killing thousands of babies and children in a single night? Paul saying I deserve to die? That kind of cartoonish?

It is impossible that I desire to correct my position on this. My thoughts toward you are infinitely more reasonable than that book.