thoughts of jesus

KCDAD · Apr 2, 2006

Satan, Lucifer The Serpent, The Beast, The Devil, fallen angels... these are literary devices... they are not even talking about the same thing. Find the name:
Satan in Genesis. Sure, Psalms, Chronicles, Job... yes. But its not The serpent in Genesis.
Lucifer: Isaiah "morning star"
The Beast :certainly not a serpent. see Daniel / Revelation.
Devil: usually means goat but sometimes, as in Deuteronomy, is literally Devil or demon.

They are not the same thing

gog_of_magog · Apr 2, 2006

jesus calle dhimself the 'morning star'

Faith In God · Apr 2, 2006

Jesus called Himself the Morning Star.

I believe Ezekiel calls Lucifer the morning star.

One of God's names is Lord.

Baal means "lord" and is a false god.

Easily explained.

Give a specific verse that says those that serve God are one w/ God Himself...thus saying we are Him...... It's no where in there. There is only one God and we are His servants.

[bible]John 17:20-23[/bible]
God and His children should be "one".

I hate to disagree with you, Lilly, but there is a verse.

Jesus is God. Period. The Father is God. Period. The Holy Spirit is God. Period.
They are all one God.

One in the Jewish mind did not mean numerical quantity. When a man and woman become one flesh, do they fuse together?
No. They work in concert.
God is a Trinity.

And God is in us (especially the Holy Spirit, as I understand it).
No one is arguing that God is still God and we are His servants. But God hasn't left us to fend for ourselves.

Lilly of the Valley · Apr 2, 2006

platosgogson said:
ook the what do we become the heirs to?

Heaven, blessings, etc....

Lilly of the Valley · Apr 2, 2006

butxifxnot said:
I hate to disagree with you, Lilly, but there is a verse.

Jesus is God. Period. The Father is God. Period. The Holy Spirit is God. Period.
They are all one God.

One in the Jewish mind did not mean numerical quantity. When a man and woman become one flesh, do they fuse together?
No. They work in concert.
God is a Trinity.

And God is in us (especially the Holy Spirit, as I understand it).
No one is arguing that God is still God and we are His servants. But God hasn't left us to fend for ourselves.

Did I say God wasn't one? I didn't. Nor did I say we weren't His servants. I think you misread or something what I said. I was explaining to the one person that WE, humans, don't become ONE WITH God Himself. Being a temple doesn't mean you become Him or a god yourself.

Faith In God · Apr 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
Did I say God wasn't one? I didn't. Nor did I say we weren't His servants. I think you misread or something what I said.

No, I didn't. I was just putting it out there, because I think you infer that if the idea that we become "one" with God is true, that those things must be. Just a clarification.

I was explaining to the one person that WE, humans, don't become ONE WITH God Himself. Being a temple doesn't mean you become Him or a god yourself.

Yes, we don't become God, but, according to Jesus, we do become "one" with God. Jesus' words.
[BIBLE]John 17:20-23[/BIBLE]
That doesn't mean we are God. I'm pretty sure we agree more than we think.

Lilly of the Valley · Apr 2, 2006

The one w/ God thing is FALSE. I was arguing AGAINST it because that's what I believed SOMEONE ELSE was saying.

Being one IN God isn't being one WITH God, hence God Himself, which is inaccurate. That's talking about unity of those that serve God and being one IN Him.

Faith In God · Apr 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
The one w/ God thing is FALSE. I was arguing AGAINST it because that's what I believed SOMEONE ELSE was saying.

Isn't that what I'm saying?

Being one IN God isn't being one WITH God, hence God Himself, which is inaccurate. That's talking about unity of those that serve God and being one IN Him.

Being one with God does not mean being God. If you are one with your wife, does that make you your ...wife??

The problem is the way we view the word "one". Again, to the Jewish mind, one does not mean numerical quantity. And here, Jesus equates "being one with" and "being one in".

"21 That they all may be one; "
they, the believers, being one. Right. Continue:

"as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:"
"as" the being one in. Very much interconnected. And remember that punctuation was put in by translators.
http://bible.cc/john/17-21.htm
See the lexicon. Look especially at "one".

"Being one with God" does not automatically mean "being God". Jesus is God for other reasons, not simply because He and the Father are one. One means a very many things.

Why are we arguing about this? It's splitting hairs. I don't think either side has enough evidence right now to establish truth as per the Bible.

I will admit that I'm not sure about this topic.

Could you bring up a verse that makes this issue (of being one in versus being one with God) important?

Lilly of the Valley · Apr 2, 2006

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Thus saying that we are one w/...as in equal to...God doesn't work since there is one God and being equal to Him then makes us a god and thus is inaccurate.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This verse shows that we are in Him....that works...

Faith In God · Apr 2, 2006

Lilly of the Valley said:
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Thus saying that we are one w/...as in equal to...God doesn't work since there is one God and being equal to Him then makes us a god and thus is inaccurate.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

This verse shows that we are in Him....that works...

You're right. Thanks.

God bless

The Gregorian · Apr 3, 2006

UUmmm:

lilly said:
Give a specific verse that says those that serve God are one w/ God Himself...thus saying we are Him...... It's no where in there. There is only one God and we are His servants.

lilly said:
Yep, I've read the Gospels and NT. It was no where in there that we are one w/ Him.

john17-20-23 said:
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The above shows you saying "the bible says 'the father and I are one' and therefore they are the same thing. The verse butxifxnot pointed out shows Jesus continuing "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" Showing, EXACTLY as Jesus is one with the father, all of the father's servants are one with him.

Therefore... either we are ALL God, or the "the father and I are one" thing doesn't mean they are literally one interchangable person.

Faith In God · Apr 3, 2006

The Gregorian said:
UUmmm:

The above shows you saying "the bible says 'the father and I are one' and therefore they are the same thing. The verse butxifxnot pointed out shows Jesus continuing "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us" Showing, EXACTLY as Jesus is one with the father, all of the father's servants are one with him.

Therefore... either we are ALL God, or the "the father and I are one" thing doesn't mean they are literally one interchangable person.

Don't make Lilly repeat herself. I put her through this already. The argument especially with this verse is flimsy at best.

KCDAD · Apr 4, 2006

butxifxnot said:
Jesus called Himself the Morning Star.

I believe Ezekiel calls Lucifer the morning star.

One of God's names is Lord.

Baal means "lord" and is a false god.

Easily explained.

Not easily understood...
Lord is a title like Duke or Earl... not a name. God has only one name (Other than Jesus) in The Bible.. it is "I am" YHWH
Explain easily how Jesus and Lucifer have the same name in scripture? (Joshua and Jesus have the same name and they went to great lengths to differentiate between them...)
Expalin the serpent easily.
Explain the beast...

The Gregorian · Apr 4, 2006

butxifxnot said:
Don't make Lilly repeat herself. I put her through this already. The argument especially with this verse is flimsy at best.

I dunno... what I saw is "THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THAT!" then "oh... I never said that, I was saying someone else said it." then "yea, but that's not what I meant."

Her support for the trinity is "The Father and I are one" But it's invalid because later in the same letter john sites Jesus saying that all of us are one with him JUST AS he is one with his father. This specifies that we have the same relationship with him as he has with his father. Either we are all PHYSICALLY one person, or we are all 'one' (in servitude to God).

I wouldn't call that flimsy... he repeates himself about 3 times in less than a paragraph.

Faith In God · Apr 4, 2006

KCDAD said:
Not easily understood...
Lord is a title like Duke or Earl... not a name. God has only one name (Other than Jesus) in The Bible.. it is "I am" YHWH

False.
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=220
See "Overview"

Specific verse regarding the Lord being one of God's many names:

Amos 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name: (bold mine).

While The Lord is one of God's names, "Baal" translated means "lord".

Explain easily how Jesus and Lucifer have the same name in scripture? (Joshua and Jesus have the same name and they went to great lengths to differentiate between them...)

Like what? They are almost the same name. The only difference is the language! Jesus is Greek for Joshua.

Expalin the serpent easily.
Explain the beast...

Off topic.

I dunno... what I saw is "THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THAT!" then "oh... I never said that, I was saying someone else said it." then "yea, but that's not what I meant."

That's not what I meant. I was saying the exact same thing you are saying, and found out how weak the argument was trying to prove it with that verse. Then I kinda said "What's the big deal?"
And she answered it. Read the whole of the last bit of the thread. It's very recent.

I wouldn't call that flimsy... he repeates himself about 3 times in less than a paragraph.

I myself showed the flimsiness of the paragraph. Try to follow that logic I was taking. He never mixes "in" and "with".

KCDAD · Apr 4, 2006

butxifxnot said:
False.
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=220
See "Overview"
Abraham called on the name of the Lord (Gen. 12:8; 13:4).
Ok.. if Abraham calls on the name of the Lord... apparently Lord isn't his name... what name did Abraham call on? It wasn't until Moses that God tells man his name.

Specific verse regarding the Lord being one of God's many names:

Amos 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name: (bold mine). (Metaphor Amos')

While The Lord is one of God's names, "Baal" translated means "lord". So God's name is Baal? Do you have any idea what metaphor is? Hercules... mighty is his name! What's his name? Mighty? No... Hercules. Is his name mighty? No, Hercules is.

Like what? They are almost the same name. The only difference is the language! Jesus is Greek for Joshua. You actually think Mary named her son a Greek name?

Why don't our schools teach students to think any more?
Joshua and Jesus are both translations of the same Hebrew name: Y'shua, Yeshua or however you wish to spell it. In our Bible we translate one as Joshua and one as Jesus... why is that?
Next step in gaining enlightenment... both Jesus and whomever Ezekial is speaking of is called the morning star... that is Lucifer. Lucifer is the English translation the morning star... The planet VENUS. Are they both the same? You say "no" , but why?

Next step: If Lucifer and Jesus are the same... who is Satan in relation to Lucifer (aka Jesus, Joshua)

Can Satan tempt himself (i.e Jesus) in the wilderness? The answer is YES! Who tempts us, we do. We are our own Satan, devil, serpent, beast, Lucifer. anti-christ, angels...

Faith In God · Apr 4, 2006

Abraham called on the name of the Lord (Gen. 12:8; 13:4).
Ok.. if Abraham calls on the name of the Lord... apparently Lord isn't his name... what name did Abraham call on? It wasn't until Moses that God tells man his name.

That made no sense. Could you run that by me again?

God has many names. Did you really read that page?

Specific verse regarding the Lord being one of God's many names:

Amos 5:8 Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion, and turneth the shadow of death into the morning, and maketh the day dark with night: that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD is his name: (bold mine). (Metaphor Amos')

Click to expand...

Right. Any evidence?

While The Lord is one of God's names, "Baal" translated means "lord". So God's name is Baal? Do you have any idea what metaphor is? Hercules... mighty is his name! What's his name? Mighty? No... Hercules. Is his name mighty? No, Hercules is.

Click to expand...

Did you just come up with that? The name of one of the Pagan gods means literally "lord". What does that tell you? It is not a metaphor.

Like what? They are almost the same name. The only difference is the language! Jesus is Greek for Joshua. You actually think Mary named her son a Greek name?

Click to expand...

I'll get to that.
Nearly the same name. While all are types of Christ, one is Christ.

KCDAD said:
Why don't our schools teach students to think any more?

Thanks for belittling me.

Joshua and Jesus are both translations of the same Hebrew name: Y'shua, Yeshua or however you wish to spell it. In our Bible we translate one as Joshua and one as Jesus... why is that?

The same reason why Lord is caps while lord is not.
Also, remember that the OT was written in Hebrew while the NT was written in Greek. It's not that hard to imagine.

Next step in gaining enlightenment... both Jesus and whomever Ezekial is speaking of is called the morning star... that is Lucifer. Lucifer is the English translation the morning star...

Lucifer: etymology: Light bearer, not necessarily "The planet VENUS."

Are they both the same? You say "no" , but why?

Ezekial calls Lucifer Lucifer because that was his position before the fall. Then John (different writer) calls Jesus that as yet another of His titles. Are you familiar with the innumerable titles given God?

Next step: If Lucifer and Jesus are the same... who is Satan in relation to Lucifer (aka Jesus, Joshua)

I never said Jesus is "Lucifer".

Can Satan tempt himself (i.e Jesus) in the wilderness? The answer is YES! Who tempts us, we do. We are our own Satan, devil, serpent, beast, Lucifer. anti-christ, angels...

Something tells me we are talking about two different things here...

dlamberth · Apr 5, 2006

Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. He was fully human and God.....humans need to pray and need strength...just as the humaness of Jesus....That pretty much explains Him having to pray.

Jesus is my example. For strength, I pray to whom Jesus prayed to. Which explains a lot for why I'm not a Christian.

.

KCDAD · Apr 5, 2006

butxifxnot said:
It's not that hard to imagine. Lucifer: etymology: Light bearer, not necessarily "The planet VENUS." Ezekial calls Lucifer Lucifer because that was his position before the fall. Then John (different writer) calls Jesus that as yet another of His titles. Are you familiar with the innumerable titles given God? I never said Jesus is "Lucifer". Something tells me we are talking about two different things here...

Read the line you wrote above ( I never said Jesus is "Lucifer") John called Jesus Lucifer... I give him more credibility than you or me.

Oh, BTW the etymology of Lucifer is directly referring to Venus... "the morning star".
Lucifer is a Latin word made up of two words, lux (light; genitive lucis) and ferre (to bear, to bring), meaning light-bearer. Lucifer appears in Greek mythology as heosphoros, the "Dawn-bringer"; it is used by poets to represent the Morning Star at moments when "Venus" would introduce distracting imagery of the goddess. "Lucifer" does not appear in most modern translations of the Christian Bible. "Lucifer" is Jerome's direct translation in his Vulgate (4th century) of the Septuagint's Greek translation, as heosphoros, "morning star" or "Day Star," literally "bringer of the Dawn", of a phrase in Isaiah 14:12, where it is used to refer to the Babylonian king by one of his popular honorific titles...

From Wikipedia

The Gregorian · Apr 5, 2006

I have a problem with the whole "the lord" vs. The LORD" thing. The OT showed the letters YHWH, the tetragrammeton... god's name... thousands of times. It was usually translated as "The Lord" Which... he was at the time... When the title was passed on to Jesus (title of Lord, but not God) people saw him as 'lord' and therefore "YHWH" must mean Jesus... because both were translated to the same word. However, YHWH is a NAME... it does NOT mean 'lord.' So saying Jesus must be God because 'jesus is lord' and 'YHWH was substituted for the title of lord' doesn't mean YHWH's son is YHWH (god) himself.

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