Thoughts - Day one of the Impeachment hearings

wing2000 · Nov 14, 2019

...the potential witness queue grows:

".... it was learned Thursday that a second official from the U.S. Embassy in Kyiv was present when U.S. Ambassador to the European Union Gordon Sondland spoke on a July 26 phone call from Ukraine with Trump that more directly ties the president to his administration’s effort to pressure Ukraine’s new leadership."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...3b27da-0660-11ea-8292-c46ee8cb3dce_story.html

Always in His Presence · Nov 14, 2019

Belk said:
What facts do you feel are most devastating to the case?

The fact that the entire case is built on hearsay evidence. If this was run like a court of law, there would be almost no admissible evidence.

it is the same as you being tried based on what someone says about you, though you have never met, never had a conversation with you.

GodLovesCats · Nov 14, 2019

hislegacy said:
The fact that the entire case is built on hearsay evidence. If this was run like a court of law, there would be almost no admissible evidence.

Wrong. Text messages were displayed at the hearing. That counts as evidence in courts of law. And if you think the phone call transcript is complete, you never read it.

Always in His Presence · Nov 14, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Wrong. Text messages were displayed at the hearing. That counts as evidence in courts of law.

cite which texts were direct evidence.

GodLovesCats · Nov 14, 2019

The text messages that were shown at the hearing yesterday. Did you watch it?

Always in His Presence · Nov 14, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
The text messages that were shown at the hearing yesterday. Did you watch it?

nope I work for a living

citation showing direct evidence of Quid Pro Quo please.

FreeinChrist · Nov 14, 2019

hislegacy said:
no, there was no quid pro quo because there wasn’t one.

the Primary people with FIRST hand knowledge from both sides say so. The FACT that the funds were released (Ukraine didn’t even know they were held up), without them doing anything additional

and that is the plain truth.

Yeah, there was quid pro quo. But I like how Pelosi said it instead:

Pelosi says Trump committed 'bribery' in Ukraine scandal

“I am saying what the president has admitted to and said it’s perfect — it’s perfectly wrong. It’s bribery,” Pelosi told reporters during her weekly press conference Thursday. “The bribe is to grant or withhold military assistance in return for a public statement of a fake investigation into the elections. That’s bribery.”

Let's look at the timeline.
First, congress approved $319 billion in aid to Ukraine in the 2019 federal budget.
- February 28, 2019 - The Trump administration says it will release the money, but did not

- May 23, 2019 - Trump says they will release the money to Ukraine.....but did not.

- June 3, 2019 - Col. Vindman becomes aware the money is being held back.

- July 10 - Sondland tells Ukraine officials that the WH chief of staff says Zelensky will get a meeting with Trump if they agree to start an investigation. Bolton responds by telling Fiona Hill to notify the National Security advisor's lawyer.

- July 18 - there is an announcement by the WHOMB that the money has been frozen in a secure call to National Security officials .

- July 25 - the phone call. Zelensky states they are ready to buy Javelin missles - Trump says "I need a favor, though...." and discusses the Bidens and Burisma.
The money is still held up

- Aug. 12th - there is a formal complaint made to the IG. This is withheld from congress til Sept. 25.

- August 28 - Politico publishes an article leading to concern by Ukraine

- Sept. 9, 2019 - 3 House committees begin an investigation

- September 11, 2019 - Trump finally releases the money to Ukraine. It is one day before a planned TV announcement by Zelensky at Trump's request (demand). The TV appearance is canceled.
The budget ends Sept. 30th/

- Sept 24 - the House begins a formal investigation involving 6 committees

-Sept 26 - Congress approves more money for Ukraine.

- Oct. 31 - guidelines are approved for the now public inquiry into the matter.

Timeline: The curious release of military aid to Ukraine
Trump–Ukraine scandal - Wikipedia
The timeline of Trump’s decision to withhold aid to Ukraine is increasingly suspicious

Trump didn't want to give the money to Ukraine - and why? I can see two reasons:
1. Because Russia didn't want him to, and he caters to Russia - why?
2. He wanted that favor to help him with the next campaign.

Neither is good.

Belk · Nov 14, 2019

hislegacy said:
The fact that the entire case is built on hearsay evidence. If this was run like a court of law, there would be almost no admissible evidence.

it is the same as you being tried based on what someone says about you, though you have never met, never had a conversation with you.

OK. Thank you.

wing2000 · Nov 14, 2019

FreeinChrist said:
Yeah, there was quid pro quo. But I like how Pelosi said it instead:

Pelosi says Trump committed 'bribery' in Ukraine scandal

“I am saying what the president has admitted to and said it’s perfect — it’s perfectly wrong. It’s bribery,” Pelosi told reporters during her weekly press conference Thursday. “The bribe is to grant or withhold military assistance in return for a public statement of a fake investigation into the elections. That’s bribery.”

Let's look at the timeline.
First, congress approved $319 billion in aid to Ukraine in the 2019 federal budget.
- February 28, 2019 - The Trump administration says it will release the money, but did not

- May 23, 2019 - Trump says they will release the money to Ukraine.....but did not.

- June 3, 2019 - Col. Vindman becomes aware the money is being held back.

- July 10 - Sondland tells Ukraine officials that the WH chief of staff says Zelensky will get a meeting with Trump if they agree to start an investigation. Bolton responds by telling Fiona Hill to notify the National Security advisor's lawyer.

- July 18 - there is an announcement by the WHOMB that the money has been frozen in a secure call to National Security officials .

- July 25 - the phone call. Zelensky states they are ready to buy Javelin missles - Trump says "I need a favor, though...." and discusses the Bidens and Burisma.
The money is still held up

- Aug. 12th - there is a formal complaint made to the IG. This is withheld from congress til Sept. 25.

- August 28 - Politico publishes an article leading to concern by Ukraine

- Sept. 9, 2019 - 3 House committees begin an investigation

- September 11, 2019 - Trump finally releases the money to Ukraine. It is one day before a planned TV announcement by Zelensky at Trump's request (demand). The TV appearance is canceled.
The budget ends Sept. 30th/

- Sept 24 - the House begins a formal investigation involving 6 committees

-Sept 26 - Congress approves more money for Ukraine.

- Oct. 31 - guidelines are approved for the now public inquiry into the matter.

Timeline: The curious release of military aid to Ukraine
Trump–Ukraine scandal - Wikipedia
The timeline of Trump’s decision to withhold aid to Ukraine is increasingly suspicious

Trump didn't want to give the money to Ukraine - and why? I can see two reasons:
1. Because Russia didn't want him to, and he caters to Russia - why?
2. He wanted that favor to help him with the next campaign.

Neither is good.

The POTUS withheld security assistance for 51 days - assistance that was approved by the Congress and fully supported by both parties. To date, the POTUS has yet to give any reason for withholding the aid.

As Bill Taylor testified:

Ukraine is a strategic partner of the United States, important for the security of our country as well as Europe. Ukraine is on the frontline in the conflict with the newly aggressive Russia. Second, even as we sit here today, the Russians are attacking Ukrainian soldiers in their own country and have been for the last four years. I saw this on the frontline last week. The day I was there, a Ukrainian soldier was killed, and four were wounded. Third, the security assistance we provide is crucial to Ukraine’s defense and to the protection of the soldiers I met on the frontline last week. It demonstrates to Ukrainians and Russians that we are Ukraine’s reliable strategic partner. It is clearly in our national interest to deter further Russian aggression.

Always in His Presence · Nov 14, 2019

FreeinChrist said:
Yeah, there was quid pro quo. But I like how Pelosi said it instead:

Pelosi says Trump committed 'bribery' in Ukraine scandal

“I am saying what the president has admitted to and said it’s perfect — it’s perfectly wrong. It’s bribery,” Pelosi told reporters during her weekly press conference Thursday. “The bribe is to grant or withhold military assistance in return for a public statement of a fake investigation into the elections. That’s bribery.”

Let's look at the timeline.
First, congress approved $319 billion in aid to Ukraine in the 2019 federal budget.
- February 28, 2019 - The Trump administration says it will release the money, but did not

- May 23, 2019 - Trump says they will release the money to Ukraine.....but did not.

- June 3, 2019 - Col. Vindman becomes aware the money is being held back.

- July 10 - Sondland tells Ukraine officials that the WH chief of staff says Zelensky will get a meeting with Trump if they agree to start an investigation. Bolton responds by telling Fiona Hill to notify the National Security advisor's lawyer.

- July 18 - there is an announcement by the WHOMB that the money has been frozen in a secure call to National Security officials .

- July 25 - the phone call. Zelensky states they are ready to buy Javelin missles - Trump says "I need a favor, though...." and discusses the Bidens and Burisma.
The money is still held up

- Aug. 12th - there is a formal complaint made to the IG. This is withheld from congress til Sept. 25.

- August 28 - Politico publishes an article leading to concern by Ukraine

- Sept. 9, 2019 - 3 House committees begin an investigation

- September 11, 2019 - Trump finally releases the money to Ukraine. It is one day before a planned TV announcement by Zelensky at Trump's request (demand). The TV appearance is canceled.
The budget ends Sept. 30th/

- Sept 24 - the House begins a formal investigation involving 6 committees

-Sept 26 - Congress approves more money for Ukraine.

- Oct. 31 - guidelines are approved for the now public inquiry into the matter.

Timeline: The curious release of military aid to Ukraine
Trump–Ukraine scandal - Wikipedia
The timeline of Trump’s decision to withhold aid to Ukraine is increasingly suspicious

Trump didn't want to give the money to Ukraine - and why? I can see two reasons:
1. Because Russia didn't want him to, and he caters to Russia - why?
2. He wanted that favor to help him with the next campaign.

Neither is good.

and every bit of that is based on hearsay.

Ukrainian President didn’t even know the funding was held up

Ukrainian President has already stated he felt no pressure to do anything

Sondland stated specifically that the President made it crystal clear that there would be no quid pro quo

The finances were released with the Ukraine doing nothing further to get them.

And that is all first hand knowledge. Not hearsay.

Always in His Presence · Nov 14, 2019

If they hadn’t had three years of trying to get an impeachable offense, perhaps there would be some question.

Pelosi also said the President was guilty of colluding with Russia

Pelosi also said the President was guilty of obstruction

why should I believe her now?

whatbogsends · Nov 14, 2019

ChristianForCats said:
Who said Adam Schiff is the prosecuter and judge? This is not the trial.

Aldebaran said:
Nobody said it, or you would have been able to quote it. However, Schiff is on the side of the democrats, AND gets to determine what questions can be asked/answered, just as a judge does.

Firstly, you certainly implied it in post 30, in response to CfCs post

ChristianForCats said:
In a court of law, the prosecutor doesn't get to also play the role of the judge. Chairman/Judge Schiff is certainly showing people who are finally able to see these hearings what he's been doing.

Of course, if you're asking for something more verbatim, then Kevin McCarthy is your man:

“They now made the Intel committee the impeachment committee. They now control even further about which Republicans can even ask questions. They made Adam Schiff not only a fact witness, but he’s the judge, the jury and the prosecutor. That is unheard of.” McCarthy said.

Kevin McCarthy: House Vote Made Adam Schiff ‘Judge, Jury And Prosecutor’ In Trump Impeachment

Someone even felt it worthy enough to make a thread out of it:

Kevin McCarthy: House Vote Made Adam Schiff ‘Judge, Jury And Prosecutor’ In Trump Impeachment

whatbogsends · Nov 14, 2019

hislegacy said:
No they did not. Trump told Sonderlin and Sonderlin conveyed “The President made it crystal clear, there is no quid pro quo”

The President of Ukraine said there was no pressure

Taylor admitted the best he had was second and third hand knowledge

The funds were released with nothing being received from Ukraine.

Trump made it clear. No aid or meeting without an announcement of investigations. The fact that he then makes the counterfactual claim "no quid pro quo" doesn't change the fact that his stipulation is just that.

The funds were only released after the quid pro quo had been made public and Trump was under investigation for it.

LostMarbels · Nov 14, 2019

My thoughts are this is one of the greatest platforms that has ever been given Trump to tout his own achievements since becoming President. Trump, during an impeachment process, manages to pull another full house, millions worldwide, and embolen his base to the cheers of an adoring crowd tens of thousands strong. The dems have attempted to smother a fire with gasoline.

This has not harmed Trump in any way.

Second thought? Waste of effort. The dems will end up wearing this one.

GodLovesCats · Nov 14, 2019

whatbogsends said:
Trump made it clear. No aid or meeting without an announcement of investigations. The fact that he then makes the counterfactual claim "no quid pro quo" doesn't change the fact that his stipulation is just that.

The funds were only released after the quid pro quo had been made public and Trump was under investigation for it.

What Trump made clear is the fact that there is quid pro quo. You can easily see it in the call transcript.

Hank77 · Nov 14, 2019

hislegacy said:
nope I work for a living

citation showing direct evidence of Quid Pro Quo please.

If you find it important, so that you're not just getting clips and snippets of information, the full hearing is on YouTube. That's where I watched the whole thing last night. I couldn't watch all of it during the day.

Always in His Presence · Nov 14, 2019

whatbogsends said:
Trump made it clear. No aid or meeting without an announcement of investigations.

Show the quote from Trump

GodLovesCats · Nov 14, 2019

hislegacy said:
Show the quote from Trump

It is in the phone call transcript.

Hank77 · Nov 14, 2019

Oh and thanks @FreeinChrist for starting this thread and thanks to all the participants for your thoughtful and respectful posts making this an informative and enjoyable conversation.

Always in His Presence · Nov 14, 2019

Thoughts - Day one of the Impeachment hearings

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