This thread was suggested to me by an SDA

HoneyDew · Mar 25, 2006

Okay ... what was this thread about again? Is it about Adventists in general, who vary as much as the flowers in my yard, or is there something more specific that is being discussed? While it is extremely sad that you (the OP) came upon some extremely toxic Pharisees and went through a rough marriage, I am sorry that you were never exposed to the churches I have been part of over the years -- if you are ever in San Diego, buzz me and I will send you to a wonderful, wonderful church family that will surprise you.
Sure I am flummoxed as I contemplate some of the things that come out of the mouths of my brethren -- evidence that they just don't think, but I know by and large you will find that mindset among any denomination. I certainly am not going to excuse narrowmindedness, legalism etc., but there are far too many Adventists who are anything but what you have described. Take me for example.

cruztacean · Mar 25, 2006

Um, sorry. I do confuse people. Unofficially I guess it's the "See if you can convince me to come back" thread. It started out as "Do SDA's think all Sunday-keepers are going to be lost," but then I was invited to present other problems I've had with the church, and I'm attempting to do so as kindly as possible. I apologize if you are upset or bothered by anything I've posted.

HoneyDew · Mar 25, 2006

Ahh. I was editing my post above as you were responding.

cruztacean · Mar 25, 2006

Important update: Hubby just arrived home. I have pointed him to the Catholic Encyclopedia, and he had this to say:

Well, so yes, the church did it. And the Adventists are correct that they didn't have the right to do it. I have other problems with them, though, just like I have issues with the Catholic church too, and that's why I'm no longer a Catholic.

Just wanted all to know that we are discussing, thinking, praying, and studying.

tall73 · Mar 25, 2006

YeshuamySalvation said:
There is no confused Adventist, what they have is a confused theology, even the well informed Adventist don't understand justification by faith in Yeshua alone " they try to [unsuccesfully] add works to there salvation" it's a teaching that sprung from the master teacher Ellen White, she strongly believed that one had to work to be found worthy of salvation, and why did she believe in righteousness by works? Was it her fault? Partially is the answere thanks to Edison vision of Yeshua entering the Most Holy Place 1844, a teaching that has no such biblical foundation... I'l take it this far, 95% of Ellen Whites doctrines are not even her ideas they are Millers, Crosiers, Edison and many others... Furthermore, the Investigative Judgement Doctrine teaches a concept of meriting salvation by your preformance this has been discussed extensively in other threads..

Again, Traditional Seventh Day Adventist do believe they have to work to be saved.. What your attempting to do is like most Adventist play with words, as most Traditional Adventist do... No offence but you do not have me fooled.

Folks, this is an argument that you cannot win by simply insisting.

If you have data on the subject, present it. If you have anecdotal evidence, it doesn't go terribly far.

Here is some evidence on actual belief patterns, drawn from Barna's research on various congregations. It is not the most extensive survey. There are others that are helpful to look at, but I don't have the data in front of me at the moment.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=92

Essentially this study shows that 32% of Adventists think that works do not earn you heaven. That is of course pathetic. But then again, with Catholics it was 9%. Presbyterian 31%, Episcopal 26%, Lutheran 27%, Etc. So we are not the only ones missing the boat theologically. Those with higher percentages were mostly pentecostal or conservative evangelicals of some sort.

Frankly I don't deny a large amount of legalists in our congregations. I have had them in every church I pastored. I simply view it as a challenge to present the biblical message.

I can't run my life based on polls. I have to run it based on what the Scriptures say, and try to change the beliefs when they don't match up.

ThreeAM · Mar 25, 2006

cruztacean said:
Thank you, ThreeAM for your references. My husband isn't home right now, but I will show him these things when he comes back. Like him, I had also never seen those statements made outside of Seventh-day Adventist literature, and I wondered too if it was just something SDA's made up about Catholics. But since you gave references online, I was able to go to those sites and read the words in Catholic literature. Yep, it's there all right.

You may recall I said on the other thread, though, that I already realize that no part of the sabbath commandment has been transferred to Sunday, not with any scriptural authority anyway. I do not believe that Sunday is the "New Testament Sabbath." I believe that the Sabbath was, yes was, symbolic, and that Christ is the substance. I still stand by that. It has been pointed out that the sabbath commandment is the only one not repeated explicitly in the New Testament, and no, I don't think "Pray that your flight not take place in winter or on the Sabbath day" counts as repeating the commandment.

The Sabbath aside, other problems I have with the church are not solved. Would I listen to a prophet of God? Sure, if I believed that person to be a prophet of God. I still haven't seen anyone prove where Mrs. White is any different from Mrs. Eddy or Mr. Smith. Anybody can claim to be delivering God's message. So she was hit on the head and didn't have more than a third grade education. How does that make her a prophet? Can't prove it by me. And I still stand by this: "the Bible and the Bible only" means exactly that. Not "the Bible and Mrs. White." Your "spirit of prophecy" argument does not prove Mrs. White in particular to be a prophet.

You can also quote me every Scripture in the Bible that has the word "commandment" in it, and highlight the word "commandment," and it's still not going to prove to me that the seventh-day Sabbath is still in effect.

So I would say it's highly doubtful that I will ever again be a Seventh-day Adventist. Will I someday accept the Sabbath again? Maybe. That depends on my study, and I assure you I will continue studying. Not what someone tells me the Bible says, but what I see in it myself. But I will never again be a Seventh-day Adventist. You can rest assured on that.

You should judge Mrs. White by comparing her to the Gold standard....The scriptures. Remember that God's prophets have always recieved rough and abusive treatments by non believers. Our times are no different but to reject Mrs White without ever reading what she has written would be a mistake. I would suggest "Steps to Christ" first it a small book with a powerful message.

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

ThreeAM · Mar 25, 2006

tall73 said:
Folks, this is an argument that you cannot win by simply insisting.

If you have data on the subject, present it. If you have anecdotal evidence, it doesn't go terribly far.

Here is some evidence on actual belief patterns, drawn from Barna's research on various congregations. It is not the most extensive survey. There are others that are helpful to look at, but I don't have the data in front of me at the moment.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?Page=BarnaUpdate&BarnaUpdateID=92

Essentially this study shows that 32% of Adventists think that works do not earn you heaven. That is of course pathetic. But then again, with Catholics it was 9%. Presbyterian 31%, Episcopal 26%, Lutheran 27%, Etc. So we are not the only ones missing the boat theologically. Those with higher percentages were mostly pentecostal or conservative evangelicals of some sort.

Frankly I don't deny a large amount of legalists in our congregations. I have had them in every church I pastored. I simply view it as a challenge to present the biblical message.

I can't run my life based on polls. I have to run it based on what the Scriptures say, and try to change the beliefs when they don't match up.

Oh come on where they get this information from? Only 37% of adventist beleive satan is real and only 45% believe Christ was sinnless???? Ha Ha Ha Not very likely.

HoneyDew · Mar 25, 2006

ThreeAM said:
Oh come on where they get this information from? Only 37% of adventist beleive satan is real and only 45% believe Christ was sinnless???? Ha Ha Ha Not very likely.

How many have you personally interviewed?

ThreeAM · Mar 25, 2006

HoneyDew said:
How many have you personally interviewed?

Over the years? In College and church Sabbath school in Bible study probably a couple of hundred or more I have never had any adventist that I know say Christ sinned. I'm sure there is the occasional wacko but certianly not 55% of the church ..that's just laughable. What do you think the sample population for this "study" was [89 people]. I certainly don't rember anyone contacting me on this "study?" Do you think Christ sinned? * By "interviewed" I mean have been present in study groups with while these types of issues have been disscused.
.

ThreeAM · Mar 25, 2006

double post

tall73 · Mar 25, 2006

given that we have a number of former Adventistst, etc. who turn up in the census and still consider themselves Adventist, who knows. But the point being ,that certainly not all believe one way or another.

Also, as a pastor I have people tell me occassionally that they just faked some of the stuff when they joined the church, don't accept doctrine x,yz, etc. It is depressing as anything, but unfortunately true at times.

Perhaps more in every demomination feel this way and just don't say anything. The other congregations there were not posting stellar numbers either.

But I did see mention in GT of the possibility of a cf poll. Might be interesting

ThreeAM · Mar 26, 2006

tall73 said:
given that we have a number of former Adventistst, etc. who turn up in the census and still consider themselves Adventist, who knows. But the point being ,that certainly not all believe one way or another.

Also, as a pastor I have people tell me occassionally that they just faked some of the stuff when they joined the church, don't accept doctrine x,yz, etc. It is depressing as anything, but unfortunately true at times.

Perhaps more in every demomination feel this way and just don't say anything. The other congregations there were not posting stellar numbers either.

But I did see mention in GT of the possibility of a cf poll. Might be interesting

Yeah the Lutherans were depressingly low on the issue of Grace 27% but the Lutherans I know are very oriented to salvation by grace. So I'm not sure about the quality of the information on that study.

moicherie · Mar 29, 2006

Cruz once again sorry for the bad experince at the church you attended, yes there are good, bad and downright ugly in any organisation- church, school, work you name it. But please do not tar as all with the same brush that way stereotypes are perpetuated and I know about those being a member of an ethnic minority in the western world. Well as long as you believe in the Advent of Christ and the Sabbath you are a Seventh day Adventist, the rest is officialdom to keep the tax man happy and some people in jobs- lol

KayD · Mar 30, 2006

Hi Cruz,

Like most everyone here, I'm sorry you had a bad experience with the church. Unfortunately, such behavior is not particular to the SDA faith only (honestly).

Please understand, however, that no one here can convince or persuade you regarding the behavior of a few or whether or not you should return to the church. Only the Holy Spirit has the power to change one's heart; no mortal man can accomplish this. We are admonished to teach/preach and baptise...to make disciples. Conversion is wrought via the work of the Holy Spirit, so I applaud what both you and your husband are currently doing - viz studying the Word more closely to gain a clearer understanding of God's nature and His desires soncerning us mortal men. I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you into all truth, and that you will be blessed and liberated as such truth is revealed to the both of you. God bless.

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