This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
You obviously do not like that, but that is what the wording in the text contextually means.

No that is what the authors of that Bible THINK it means. Many words may have many different meanings as well as applications. When you divert from what is clearly written you are doing nothing more than following what another man says, and no longer relying on what the Bible actually says. I have no problem using things like the GNV or even The Word to get ideas or possibly a different view than what I would normally read...but to quote as a reference for what the Bible says...never. Because the Bible does not say all that extra stuff, man does.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 30, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
Both Jacob and Esau were and are real individuals.

Yes - God uses their example to illustrate the truth you are observing concerning Israel vs. the gentiles and such.

But Jacob and Esau are not fictitious examples thought up by God to illustrate that point. They are real people who live and still live. One was loved by God before he was born and one was hated by God before he was born.

This teaches election unto salvation before birth pure and simple

No it doesn't teach that at all. In fact, the very phrase about loving and hating in Rom 9:13 is a direct quote from Mal 1:2,3, which was written about 400 BC, WAY after the actual twins were born. So, Paul, like Malachi, were pointing out God's attitude toward Edom, the descendants of Esau.

- whatever else may also be illustrated in the passage.

Yes, what I just said.

There is nothing about "election unto salvation" anywhere in the Bible: neither Rom 9, 2 Thess 2:13 nor anywhere else.

God chooses to saved those who believe, according to 1 Cor 1:21. But the word for "chose" in 2 Thess 2:13 isn't related to any of the 3 Greek words for election or elect. iow, it's not an "election" word.

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
We aren't talking about throwing a ball toward a hole. We are talking about the ability to make the free throw - not take the free throw.

All I said was the ability to throw a free throw. I never said anything about making it. Neither did you, until now. So as I said..everyone has the ability to throw a free throw.

That is why God is Just...everyone has the same ability, no one is left lacking that ability, otherwise they can and would blame God for not giving them the ability. God's justice is evenly applied to everyone, "There is no partiality with God" (Romans 2:11). "God is not one to show partiality" (Acts 10:34)

sdowney717 · Nov 30, 2015

brotherjerry said:
No that is what the authors of that Bible THINK it means. Many words may have many different meanings as well as applications. When you divert from what is clearly written you are doing nothing more than following what another man says, and no longer relying on what the Bible actually says. I have no problem using things like the GNV or even The Word to get ideas or possibly a different view than what I would normally read...but to quote as a reference for what the Bible says...never. Because the Bible does not say all that extra stuff, man does.

Problem is scripture makes no sense read from your perspective. You must go through elaborate forcing for your view on the texts which Peter calls twisting the scripture.
Satan is that slimy twisting serpent who can capture the imagination of the mind and twist it against what God and Christ have so cleary said. Those so captured are not even aware of the deception, after all that is what to be deceived means.

And there is this,

Isaiah 27:1
In that day [the Lord will deliver Israel from her enemies and also from the rebel powers of evil and darkness] His sharp and unrelenting, great, and strong sword will visit and punish Leviathan the swiftly fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting and winding serpent; and He will slay the monster that is in the sea.

sdowney717 · Nov 30, 2015

brotherjerry said:
All I said was the ability to throw a free throw. I never said anything about making it. Neither did you, until now. So as I said..everyone has the ability to throw a free throw.

That is why God is Just...everyone has the same ability, no one is left lacking that ability, otherwise they can and would blame God for not giving them the ability. God's justice is evenly applied to everyone, "There is no partiality with God" (Romans 2:11). "God is not one to show partiality" (Acts 10:34)

The whole chapter is about the righteous judgement of God, which by following your view of the text leads to no room for grace and mercy of God. We see though Paul sums this up at the end by saying the true circumcision is of the heart in the Spirit, so then the new birth enables men to be led as the sheep of Christ doing what is pleasing to God..
Romans 2
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

So then not everyone has the same ability do they. Some are born of God.

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Problem is scripture makes no sense read from your perspective. You must go through elaborate forcing for your view on the texts which Peter calls twisting the scripture.
Satan is that slimy twisting serpent who can capture the imagination of the mind and twist it against what God and Christ have so cleary said. Those so captured are not even aware of the deception, after all that is what to be deceived means.

And there is this,

Isaiah 27:1
In that day [the Lord will deliver Israel from her enemies and also from the rebel powers of evil and darkness] His sharp and unrelenting, great, and strong sword will visit and punish Leviathan the swiftly fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting and winding serpent; and He will slay the monster that is in the sea.

HAHA..you are a funny one.

Let's see...who is it that is quoting directly from a Bible such as KJ, or NASB, or similar that has no additional words added to it? Who is it that says when the Bible says that God so loved the world, he takes it to mean the world, and not certain people in the world? Who is it that when the Bible says that anyone who believes will be saved, it means anyone, not just certain people given the ability or elected to believe? The answer to those questions is ... Me. So please drop the baseless accusations that I am twisting the scripture.

I merely pointed out to you why I would never use the Amplified to quote scripture, because it is not scripture, it is scripture plus information. I never said there was anything wrong with what was in the Amplified, only it is not what I would use for quoting scripture. I also pointed out how the "plus information" is the authors interpretations, and not anything else. If you refuse to understand all that or accept all that, then the problem is not mine.

sdowney717 · Nov 30, 2015

Paul is describing the saved versus the unsaved here in Romans 2.
One has had the circumcision of the heart performed on them by Christ and the other are left hardened and non repentant by the same Spirit.
That is correct there is no partiality with God as regards to what men do, they are judged accordingly.

That there is partiality according to His grace and mercy is evident in the extremity of both types of persons here, one hardened for the day of wrath, the other gets the circumcision of their heart and obeys righteousness. As so many other scriptures point out. To just throw out a blanketing statement of no partiality ever is misrepresenting the scriptures.

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
The whole chapter is about the righteous judgement of God, which by following your view of the text leads to no room for grace and mercy of God. We see though Paul sums this up at the end by saying the true circumcision is of the heart in the Spirit, so then the new birth enables men to be led as the sheep of Christ doing what is pleasing to God..
Romans 2
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

So then not everyone has the same ability do they. Some are born of God.

SDowney, I have no idea what you are talking about and I am not certain if you understand what Marvin and I were talking about.

Marvin was explaining that God gives some the ability to receive Christ and others God does not give this ability. We have been going back and forth on it because I have shown how the Bible indicates that everyone has this ability, the chance to be saved is refused to no one, because the Bible tells us that Christ died for the whole world, that He was crucified for all, that anyone as well as everyone who believes will be saved. The wording of the Bible does not leave room for exceptions such as "Christ died for the whole world except those not given the ability to receive" or anything like that.

And I completely agree with you that the new birth enables us to be led as sheep...but that is after salvation...my conversation with Marvin has not reached that point yet We are still getting over the hump of selection/election/etc.

sdowney717 · Nov 30, 2015

brotherjerry said:
HAHA..you are a funny one.

Let's see...who is it that is quoting directly from a Bible such as KJ, or NASB, or similar that has no additional words added to it? Who is it that says when the Bible says that God so loved the world, he takes it to mean the world, and not certain people in the world? Who is it that when the Bible says that anyone who believes will be saved, it means anyone, not just certain people given the ability or elected to believe? The answer to those questions is ... Me. So please drop the baseless accusations that I am twisting the scripture.

I merely pointed out to you why I would never use the Amplified to quote scripture, because it is not scripture, it is scripture plus information. I never said there was anything wrong with what was in the Amplified, only it is not what I would use for quoting scripture. I also pointed out how the "plus information" is the authors interpretations, and not anything else. If you refuse to understand all that or accept all that, then the problem is not mine.

The amplified is just exposing the true meanings of the words. If you study what a word means from a dictionary, your going to get a long list of words describing what the word in question actually means. You wont get the same word back repeated again and again. Some people have read scripture so much and feel so familiar with it, that it has become like poetry to them and they have lost the meaning of what the words are saying.

sdowney717 · Nov 30, 2015

brotherjerry said:
SDowney, I have no idea what you are talking about and I am not certain if you understand what Marvin and I were talking about.

Marvin was explaining that God gives some the ability to receive Christ and others God does not give this ability. We have been going back and forth on it because I have shown how the Bible indicates that everyone has this ability, the chance to be saved is refused to no one, because the Bible tells us that Christ died for the whole world, that He was crucified for all, that anyone as well as everyone who believes will be saved. The wording of the Bible does not leave room for exceptions such as "Christ died for the whole world except those not given the ability to receive" or anything like that.

And I completely agree with you that the new birth enables us to be led as sheep...but that is after salvation...my conversation with Marvin has not reached that point yet We are still getting over the hump of selection/election/etc.

We are speaking a different language with some bare bones similarities because we do not agree about what the words actually mean. I would challenge you to study the words used and actually research what they are saying. your filtering your understanding from what you have been taught by others, and not revelation knowledge that comes from the Holy Spirit.

ToBeLoved · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
The amplified is just exposing the true meanings of the words. If you study what a word means from a dictionary, your going to get a long list of words describing what the word in question actually means. You wont get the same word back repeated again and again. Some people have read scripture so much and feel so familiar with it, that it has become like poetry to them and they have lost the meaning of what the words are saying.

That's new to me.

I would say that many people who know scripture fairly well are more likely to go to the original languages (ie.. Greek, Hebrew) than to think of scripture as poetry.

I would turn what you said around and say:

Most people do not want to find out what words do mean in their context in both verses and chapters, they take the easy way out and have someone else tell them in version such as Amplified.

ToBeLoved · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
We are speaking a different language with some bare bones similarities because we do not agree about what the words actually mean. I would challenge you to study the words used and actually research what they are saying. your filtering your understanding from what you have been taught by others, and not revelation knowledge that comes from the Holy Spirit.

Why don't you lay out the specific words and their meanings? Then we can see what you are talking about.

You are challenging him to study words that you believe he has interpreted incorrectly, but you do not say what those words are.

Also, I would caution you not to judge who has the revelation of the Holy Spirit or what has been revealed by the Holy Spirit. You are placing yourself on quite a high pedestal with that.

Now a servant of Christ would not put themselves on a pedestal, but only put Jesus Christ on that pedestal. But I am to believe that you have all this revelation from Christ, but put yourself above others. Pffft.

sdowney717 · Nov 30, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
Why don't you lay out the specific words and their meanings? Then we can see what you are talking about.

You are challenging him to study words that you believe he has interpreted incorrectly, but you do not say what those words are.

Also, I would caution you not to judge who has the revelation of the Holy Spirit or what has been revealed by the Holy Spirit. You are placing yourself on quite a high pedestal with that.

Now a servant of Christ would not put themselves on a pedestal, but only put Jesus Christ on that pedestal. But I am to believe that you have all this revelation from Christ, but put yourself above others. Pffft.

I already made my point with the amplified version, it is just that you don't want to believe what these texts actually mean, the amplified version is challenging you since it is showing to you the truth of the scripture and it differs from what you think you know.

ToBeLoved · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
Problem is scripture makes no sense read from your perspective. You must go through elaborate forcing for your view on the texts which Peter calls twisting the scripture.
Satan is that slimy twisting serpent who can capture the imagination of the mind and twist it against what God and Christ have so cleary said. Those so captured are not even aware of the deception, after all that is what to be deceived means.

And there is this,

Isaiah 27:1
In that day [the Lord will deliver Israel from her enemies and also from the rebel powers of evil and darkness] His sharp and unrelenting, great, and strong sword will visit and punish Leviathan the swiftly fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting and winding serpent; and He will slay the monster that is in the sea.

What are your verses in Peter? Don't you think you should guide your reader through what you are talking about so we can follow this?

ToBeLoved · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
I already made my point with the amplified version, it is just that you don't want to believe what these texts actually mean, the amplified version is challenging you since it is showing to you the truth of the scripture and it differs from what you think you know.

How can that be?

Because right under your Amplified version translation I listed the KJV, so I was taking nothing away from the Amplified but also looking at the King James.

Do you think it is wrong to read more than one translation of scripture?

Marvin Knox · Nov 30, 2015

brotherjerry said:
And I completely agree with you that the new birth enables us to be led as sheep...but that is after salvation.....

Do you believe then that one is born again after salvation?

Do you believe that a natural person understands and responds positively to the Word of God and then God rewards him for doing so by making him a new creation which has spiritual life in it as a reward for his compliance with the demands of the gospel?

Do you believe, as you seem to say, that becoming that new person is what allows that person to be led by the Spirit and that he was not able to be led by the Spirit before that time?

How then was he led by the Spirit to understand the gospel and say Jesus is Lord when he was the old man?

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
The amplified is just exposing the true meanings of the words. If you study what a word means from a dictionary, your going to get a long list of words describing what the word in question actually means. You wont get the same word back repeated again and again. Some people have read scripture so much and feel so familiar with it, that it has become like poetry to them and they have lost the meaning of what the words are saying.

I understand completely. My point was however, that sometimes the words do have different meanings and when you read a different verse it may change your perspective on what a previous verse may have been saying. This can be a revelation from the Holy Spirit that perhaps you have been reading things incorrectly in the past, or a knowledge that you suddenly receive even though your read the verse 1000 times already, but today it has meaning. But when you use thought based Bibles that inject this information you get indoctrinated into the idea that the words only have that one meaning, when in fact they may have others. You also have to understand that the meaning for the words that are printed in your Bible are put there by the publisher...so you have to always take anything a man says is the meaning with a grain of salt and compare it to scripture, not to words men put there.

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

sdowney717 said:
The whole chapter is about the righteous judgement of God, which by following your view of the text leads to no room for grace and mercy of God. We see though Paul sums this up at the end by saying the true circumcision is of the heart in the Spirit, so then the new birth enables men to be led as the sheep of Christ doing what is pleasing to God..
Romans 2
29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

So then not everyone has the same ability do they. Some are born of God.

Sdowney
Ah it looks like you expanded where you were going...that helps

Romans 2...when Paul says there is no impartiality with God...he was speaking between Greek and Jew. We have been made equals, there is nothing special to be done by Jew or by Gentile to earn any special favor. Yes judgement is spoken of, and judgement will be dolled out equally to Jews as well as to Gentile, but also mentioned is glory and honor, and it too is dolled out equally to Jew as to Gentile. That is by definition justice and God being just.

And it was not a matter of misrepresnting anything. Some may have a lack of understanding, but that is not misrepresenting anything. Because all have sinned we should all face judgement. But God established long ago that there is an atonment for sin, the sin sacrifice was not partial either, if you sinned you sacrifice the same as someone who sinned even more. With the Jews it was a blood sacrifice, and it still is today, except Christ paid that blood sacrifice with His blood. God's grace is not showing partiality, because anyone can partake of the benefits of His grace.

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

ToBeLoved said:
That's new to me.

I would say that many people who know scripture fairly well are more likely to go to the original languages (ie.. Greek, Hebrew) than to think of scripture as poetry.

I would turn what you said around and say:

Most people do not want to find out what words do mean in their context in both verses and chapters, they take the easy way out and have someone else tell them in version such as Amplified.

Agreed on all levels. When I sit down to study, the lexicon, Strongs, Bible dictionary, parallel Bible, and my original first Bible are right there with me, as well as online for quick searches and refrencing.

brotherjerry · Nov 30, 2015

Marvin Knox said:
Do you believe then that one is born again after salvation?

Do you believe that a natural person understands and responds positively to the Word of God and then God rewards him for doing so by making him a new creation which has spiritual life in it as a reward for his compliance with the demands of the gospel?

Do you believe, as you seem to say, that becoming that new person is what allows that person to be led by the Spirit and that he was not able to be led by the Spirit before that time?

How then was he led by the Spirit to understand the gospel and say Jesus is Lord when he was the old man?

Marvin.

Being born again is synonymous with salvation or being saved. My reference to after salvation was to being led as sheep. Sorry if there was any confusion there.

I do believe that an unsaved person can respond positively to the Gospel and be partakers of the grace and to be saved. I find the idea of 'responding to the Word of God' as a bit ambiguous...in general, no because much of the Word of God, the Bible, is far to complex for the natural man to understand and accept. Which is what Paul was talking about.

As to being led by the Spirit...no. I believe becoming a new creature in Christ, being given the Spirit and being made whole once again, we are able to discern and understand we are bing led by the Spirit. But I believe that God can and does lead people as He sees fit. God works in the lives of the saved as well as the unsaved...the unsaved just do not acknowledge or even recognize it.

How then was he led by the Spirit to understand the gospel and say Jesus is Lord when he was the old man?

Who are you talking about? Lost me on this one.

This should end the discussion about easy grace and OSAS!

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