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theological problem with the "sons of god" being human

Aman777

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Calminian:>>Well, Josephus' sources definitely believe they were angels.
for many angels of God accompanied with women, and begat sons that proved unjust, and despisers of all that was good, on account of the confidence they had in their own strength; for the tradition is, That these men did what resembled the acts of those whom the Grecians call giants. —Antiq. 1:73

Dear Readers, Josephus lived long before Science discovered that Natural man's bones have been found which are millions of years old. He falsely assumed that Angels were the "giants" of Genesis 6:4, for he knew of NO other beings which could have married and produced children with Adam's descendants.

Josephus was wrong Scripturally, since God's Holy Word tells us that Angels don't marry nor are given in marriage:

Mark 12 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
Matthew 22 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
Luke 20 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Also the Angels which sinned are kept in chains under darkness until Judgment:

2 Peter 2 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)
Jude 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version)

Josephus was a man and the danger in following the words of a man is that their judgment is flawed. Put your faith in the Holy Word of God and not in any man's views, including mine.

In Love,
Aman
 
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Calminian

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Yeah, just for the record I never put that forth as an argument for angels. Chet had asked what the views of antiquity were on this issue. Josephus is not inspired, but a good historian, and according to his sources, the ancients definitely viewed these beings as angels. That's all that was said there.

And I agree put your trust in the word of God, not transient scientific naturalistic theories about origins. Aman I highly suggest you trust God's word. We're in agreement.
 
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Aman777

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Dear Calminian, Amen. I agree that scientists are wrong on many occasions. They falsely believe that we evolved our Human intelligence from mindless Nature. I know that we inherited our human intelligence from the first human Adam, thanks to Jesus. It's the only way to obtain the higher intelligence which only God and Adam have. Genesis 3:22

In Love,
Aman
 
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Calminian

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Fair enough. Now did you weigh in on wether the sons of god were human? If they were human, how did the achieve the title sons of god apart from Christ?
 
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Aman777

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Calminian;62631600]Fair enough. Now did you weigh in on wether the sons of god were human? If they were human, how did the achieve the title sons of god apart from Christ?

Dear Cal, The sons of God were NOT human, since they did NOT descend from Adam, the first human. Adam was made with a superior intelligence to any creature made from the water. God calls them the sons of God because they were innocent and like all natural creatures, did NOT know good or evil.

When Cain killed Abel, he went to the land of Nod on the east of Eden. There he met his wife who descended from the sons of God (Prehistoric mankind) who were created from the water on the 5th Day. Genesis 1:21 The LORD who created both of them made it possible that they could produce children. The children of Cain, had high technology such as farming, tent building, smelting and making musical instruments because they had inherited the human intelligence of Adam through Cain.

Genesis 6:4 shows that the combination of the sons of God and the descendants of Adam produces "giants" intellectually. Notice that the verse tells us this happened on the world of Adam, and then prophecies that it will happen "and also after that."

It happened again on our Planet AFTER the Flood when the grandsons of Noah had NO other humans to marry. They married and produced children with the people who were on our Earth when Noah arrived. These people also came forth from the water on the 5th Day when God commanded "every living creature that moveth" to come forth from the water.

The sons of God (Prehistoric people) changed or adapted from innocent creatures to guilty mankind when the offspring appeared. It is HOW we became Humans. ALL of us are the result of this happening which began at Babel. We become the "sons of God" AFTER we are born again for God counts us as righteous thanks to Jesus. God's Holy Word is the Truth in EVERY way.

In Love,
Aman
 
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Calminian

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Okay, let's take a look at this explanation and see if it solves the theological problem presented in the OP.


You say they were not-human in the sense Adam was and therefore this solves the problem, but humanity in and of itself is not the essence of the theological problem. In scripture, divine sonship comes via direct creation by God. If these sons of God were descended from other pre-adamic creatures, they are still not direct creations and therefore could not be called sons of god.

Again, biblically, one can only be a son of God if he is directly created (like Adam and the angels) or a new creation in Christ, the only begotten Son. If you are a descendent of Adam you are a son of adam by nature, not a son of god. If you are descended from other human like beings, you are a son of that original being, not a son of God.

So the theological problem still exists. How did these pre-adamic descended creatures obtain divine sonship? Why were the called sons of God, if they really were sons of pre-adamic beings?


Regarding your theory of Cain's wife I started this thread.
 
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Aman777

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Calminian:>>Okay, let's take a look at this explanation and see if it solves the theological problem presented in the OP.


Originally Posted by Aman777

....Dear Cal, The sons of God were NOT human, since they did NOT descend from Adam, the first human. Adam was made with a superior intelligence to any creature made from the water. God calls them the sons of God because they were innocent and like all natural creatures, did NOT know good or evil. ....
Cal:>>You say they were not-human in the sense Adam was and therefore this solves the problem, but humanity in and of itself is not the essence of the theological problem. In scripture, divine sonship comes via direct creation by God. If these sons of God were descended from other pre-adamic creatures, they are still not direct creations and therefore could not be called sons of god.

Dear Cal, The sons of God were "created." They were created BEFORE they were brought forth from the water.

Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after His kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

They were "created" not knowing good and evil as humans do. They were innocent, just as regenerated mankind is considered innocent AFTER we are born Spiritually.

Cal:>>Again, biblically, one can only be a son of God if he is directly created (like Adam and the angels) or a new creation in Christ, the only begotten Son. If you are a descendent of Adam you are a son of adam by nature, not a son of god. If you are descended from other human like beings, you are a son of that original being, not a son of God.

I agree, BUT since the sons of God were "created", and then God calls them the sons of God, this indicates that they, like Christians, will be in heaven, but will be ruled by humans, who have a superior intelligence. This is important for it refutes Godless Evolutionism which falsely supposes we evolved our human intelligence over long periods of magical time.

Cal:>>So the theological problem still exists. How did these pre-adamic descended creatures obtain divine sonship? Why were the called sons of God, if they really were sons of pre-adamic beings?

Since Adam was made the 3rd Day (Genesis 2:4-7) humans have preeminence or first place, because the sons of God (Natural man) was NOT created and brought forth from the water until the 5th Day. Gen. 1:21

Cal:>>Regarding your theory of Cain's wife I started this thread.

I know and thanks for doing so. God bless you.

In Love,
Aman
 
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Calminian

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If anything I think this demonstrates just how severe the theological problem is. So now you have descendants of original beings made from water (never mind that's not what the text says), but since you admitted these were not direct creations now you have them being saved, but that wouldn't make them sons of god either. There were definitely godly saved men in the old testament, but that's not what makes them sons of God. The only way any being can be a son of God is by being directly created or by being in Christ. These beings you describe are neither and thus cannot be called sons of God.
 
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hiscosmicgoldfish

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This is a simple question for those that think the sons of god of genesis 6 were human. How did they obtain divine sonship apart from Jesus Christ??

i dont suppose i can contribute anything to an argument, as i think that the sons of god were angels. they passed some angelic material into the human race, and i think that these hybrids cannot be saved, because they are not human. Jesus came to save humans, not fallen angels and their offspring.
 
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Aman777

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Calminian:>>If anything I think this demonstrates just how severe the theological problem is. So now you have descendants of original beings made from water (never mind that's not what the text says), but since you admitted these were not direct creations now you have them being saved, but that wouldn't make them sons of god either.

Dear Cal, You misunderstand what I posted. Here is the verse where the sons of God were "created."

Gen. 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after His kind: and God saw that it was good.

"Every living creature that moveth" would include prehistoric mankind. Notice that the narrative does NOT say that the moving creatures were created by the water, but that they were created first and then brought forth from the water. When God "creates" it takes the agreement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The sons of God (Prehistoric man whose origin was in the water) has been verified by the fossils he left behind. They were NOT created Spiritually, but were innocent because they did NOT have the higher human intelligence of Adam. They were INNOCENT because they did NOT know good and evil.

Cal:>>There were definitely godly saved men in the old testament, but that's not what makes them sons of God. The only way any being can be a son of God is by being directly created or by being in Christ. These beings you describe are neither and thus cannot be called sons of God.

Scripture is speaking of two differing types of men. In the OT, the sons of God are innocent beings and in the New, Scripture is speaking of saved Humans, who are now innocent because they have been created in Christ by the agreement of the Trinity. This indicates that BOTH are innocent in God's eyes.

I can understand your questioning this view, BUT can you explain the term for the "sons of God" which is clearly shown in the OT, in any other Scriptural way? This view agrees with Scripture, Science, and History and explains the mystery of How and When the sons of God (Prehistoric man) on our Earth changed from simple to Human intelligence.

This also destroys the false idea of the Theory of Evolution which claims that we inherited our Human intelligence from mindless, unknowing, and uncaring, Nature. Read ll Peter 3:3-7 and see if you think the "Scoffers" of the last days are today's scientists. They are "willingly ignorant" of this interpretation because it threatens the validity of the TOE.

In Love,
Aman
 
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Calminian

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John 1:3 (NKJV) All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

Nothing was made apart from Jesus. He is the Word of God.

So then you're arguing that everything is the son of God? Not following.

You get the distinction between directly created and procreated?
 
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Calminian

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Yes, you are saying that at some prior age, God created creatures form the sea and thousands of years later their descendants were the 'sons of god.' But this violates the clear textual meaning of the term. If they are descendant beings they cannot be sons of God.


You're misinterpreting this passage. Take a look at another translation.

So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.​

Scripture divides the world into 3 parts, sky, land and sea. On day 5 the sea creatures and flying creatures (of the sky were made). On day six the land creatures.

I realize you're trying to reconcile this with modern scientific theories about origins, but that's not the right approach. Let the Bible inform you about man-made theories rather than trying to force it into man-made theories.
 
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ThouShaltNotPoe

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Fascinating topic. And it is one I've thought much about of late. I'm ending my day but just wanted to make some quick comments---and admit that I've not carefully read the entire thread. {And I want to thank all of you for such thought-filled comments that were a delight to read and think about. So even the ideas with which I disagreed were a blessing to me---obviously because they came from my brethren in Christ who share a reverence for the Biblical text}

With that in mind, I decided to start with Caliminian's comment, just to have a place to begin:


In scripture, divine sonship comes via direct creation by God. If these sons of God were descended from other pre-Adamic creatures, they are still not direct creations and therefore could not be called sons of god.

I applaud your willingness to integrate the entire Bible as the word of one Divine Author but it is also 66 books from many authors over many centuries in three languages. Should we assume that every term in the Bible has a single meaning and/or pedigree? Unlikely. [Note that the asterisks below serve as a footnote reference, all to be found at the bottom of this essay.]

What "rule" in scripture says that "Sons of God" MUST be "direct creations"? **

1) Words, no matter what language we are talking about mean whatever the speakers assign to them. Somebody could decide to call their racehorse "Sons of God" or their award-winning variety of tea-rose "Sons of God". And no, those are NOT absurd examples. It is basic linguistics and I'm making a key point.

2) Why would anyone assume that the phrase "Sons of God" in ancient Hebrew was at all impacted/governed by what "Sons of God" would mean in the Greek New Testament? (Surely nobody is going to say that there is some kind of "divine standardization of terms" that would revolve around the English language, especially when they realize that the SEMANTIC DOMAINS of the Hebrew words and the Greek words are quite different!)

3) And although "Sons of God" and "Daughters of Men" appear in the Hebrew Masoretic Text as if they had been Hebrew terms from the time of their "origins", we don't know that! We have no idea what the phrases would have been in terms of whatever the language was at the time of the events described. Those events could have been MANY thousands of years prior to the EXISTENCE of the Hebrew language! And we don't know HOW the original terms in their original language got transformed or translated to Hebrew and how....and perhaps over a SERIES of intermediate languages! And we don't even know if those portions of the Book of Genesis were passed down to Moses as scrolls from centuries before *or* had been retold as oral histories (also over the centuries of multiple languages.)

4) Accordingly, we know MUCH LESS about the context than anybody here has posited as possible---even though enormous gaps are LIKELY.

Therefore, I suggest we consider the terms to be "wide open" and WITHOUT the blinders of TRADITION (which so often confuse our ability to read the Bible on its own terms.)

So I won't presume to know better than the ancients HOW they used those phrases AT THAT TIME AND PLACE IN HISTORY. But for a great many linguistic and scientific reasons, including what we KNOW about genetic bottlenecks and evolutionary processes [yes, we can and do KNOW them, despite my "lost years" as a dedicated young earth creation activist/speaker], I have thought about the following:

"The daughters of men" became a phrase associated with female descendents of Adam, the IMAGO DEI-endowed Homo sapiens [or should we use the term Homo sapiens sapiens?].

"The sons of God" became a phrase associated with a "super race" of hominids who were larger, stronger, and faster than the Adamic men. [And by the way, the term "Sons of God" could easily have been applied to an entire people (or should I say "creature") regardless of gender. After all, it is common in many cultures, both ancient and today, for a people to be called by a name which, technically, applies only to males. And many language units work that way, such as Hebrew ADAM in Genesis refers at times to a male adult and sometimes to humans in general; and in English "man" also means "mankind" which includes females; and in German "man" means "one [person]" regardless of gender.]

If a genetically bigger, stronger, taller, faster male from the "Sons of God" tribe [and wouldn't "sons of God" be appropriate for someone of such a superior stature, especially if a fearsome sight?] married a "daughter of men" [an average human], is it not likely that the impressive HYBRIDS might grow up to be MEN OF RENOWN (also a "proper name" eventually, even used as a royal title.) So at that time, the phrases became the obvious ways to refer to the Adamic tribe vs. the non-Adamic tribe, the "regular humans" versus the "Giants"/"Sons of God". [In associating them with "God", it wasn't a reference to HOLINESS or RIGHTEOUSNESS or WISDOM; it would have referred to AWESOME, GIGANTIC, INTIMIDATING, and OVERWHELMING. "Sons of God" makes sense in the same ways that the Greek and Roman PANTHEONS of gods and goddesses made sense!]

An objection to all of this by some would be because of their TRADITIONAL assumption that God has "planned out" every term of the Bible in a systematic way so that a well-structured "lesson plan" is revealed in scripture. Yes, in many ways I agree. But that doesn't mean that the individual WRITERS of the Bible didn't use the terminology of their time and place in human history. "Sons of God" had a particular meaning for the time and place of the "pre-Noah" account. The author used the terms "sons of God" and "daughters of men". [We might wish to put them in Capital-letters to suggest they were "proper nouns" as in the names of TRIBES (for example)---even though the written language had no provision for upper-case, obviously, and we are only speculating. BUT WE MUST LEAVE OPEN ALL SUCH POSSIBILITIES if we are going to let the text speak for itself!]

Now consider this: Why is there a strange interlude about "giants" and "Men of Renown" just before the Noah account? Isn't it likely that it sets the stage for God's judgment of the ERETZ (the "land")? And consider this: Suppose the Lineage of Adam (the only creatures with the IMAGO DEI, the Image of God endowed upon them) had been commanded NOT to intermarry with the SAVAGE, VIOLENT, SUPER-SIZED brutes of hominid creatures. [Homo Neanderthal? Probably not, but I just want to shape up our thinking to allow possibilities.] After all, there may have been no GENETIC reason that the two "tribes" could not produce young. But only the Adamic line was blessed by God with the purpose and ABILITY to relate to the Creator as Adam and Eve had done in the Garden. But biology is biology and the "Sons of God" would have been appealing to the "Daughters of Men", because such big and powerful men would have been able hunters and superior warriors and defenders! (And that would appeal to human father-in-laws as well as their daughters.)

So despite prohibitions of intermarriage, the two tribes DID mix---and the hybrid young would have inherited the savage violence and ruthless traits of the fathers. But notice that Noah "was pure in all his generations". Now that is a debated structure and I'm not entirely convinced that that "pure race" interpretation is the best, but suppose it is saying that ONLY NOAH had a PURE ADAMIC LINEAGE. And that purity of lineage may have also meant that the IMAGE OF GOD within him called him to a right relationship with God and an attitude of FAITH and REPENTANCE for his sins---attributes missing among the people after generations of mixing.

This "theory" solves a LOT of the genetic bottleneck issues of Noah's family being the ONLY genetic sources for the entire human population today. Because AFTER the flood ---because the Hebrew Text of Genesis shows NO evidence of a GLOBAL flood [I don't say that casually after much study] and therefore non-Adamic hominids would have survived OUTSIDE of the region where the Adamic lineage had lived and was completely destroyed except Noah's family. So, yes, after the Flood, genetic mixing happened again.

There are many other aspects of the theory which I could address for many pages----but I must sleep. And for now I mainly wanted to emphasize this: "Sons of God" and "Daughters of Men" were at that time and place in human history the TRIBAL NAMES of the Giants-versus-the-Normals, or the Brutes-versus-the-Civilized-Ones. They were not special names chosen by God to teach us some profound truth. So let's not theologize them. That simply doesn't hold up to basic linguistic scrutiny.

Years ago I thought of publishing a paper on this but I've gotten the impression from things said in passing at some theological conferences as well as a few footnotes in books that if I looked a bit, I would probably find this very "hypothesis" expressed by multiple evangelical authors. It HARMONIZES with both the scriptures and the science. And that is all I'm saying at this point. My goal is to consider all of the POSSIBILITIES of the text rather than simply champion whatever TRADITIONAL interpretation I might have been raised in.

But I can also say that we should DISMISS and put to rest the tired old tradition of the "Sons of God" being ANGELS. The fact that that term appears LATER in Biblical history does NOT justify anachronisms in Genesis 6. And Jesus said, "The angels neither marry nor are given in marriage", which loosely paraphrased means, "The angels don't reproduce sexually as males ["to marry"] or females ["to be given in marriage".] And I'm tempted to add to the paraphrase: "you simpleton!", because I think Jesus was being very emphatic there and was chiding the Pharisees for such a silly idea, as if he were saying, "obviously!". So let us throw that interpretation in the dustbin of hermeneutics.
______________________________

FOOTNOTES:


** Indeed, how do we know that "HADAM" ["the human one", "the red-soiled human", both male & female, "Adam & Eve"] was a "direct creation"? They were certainly a UNIQUE creation in being endowed with the IMAGO DEI. But Genesis 2:7 only states that God formed HADAM from "the dust of the ground", that is, the basic chemical elements of the earth's crust. So we know the starting ingredients and the end product---but neither the time period involved NOR the number and nature of the intermediate processes. The major theme of Genesis 1&2 was "God did the creating!" We don't get much information about the physics and chemistry processes that God used. We have no reason to make assumptions about "direct creation". Indeed, HADAM wasn't created through the special creation of EX NIHILO, that is for sure! We only are told of the intermediate process involving "the dust of the ground"---and therefore, who knows how much EROSION OF ROCK was needed to produce that dust. And let's not get distracted by "appearance of age" and "embedded age", neither of which are mentioned in the Genesis text.
 
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Calminian

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...Illogical statement. Why can't they be called "sons of god"?

Well mainly because the bible is consistent in is terminology. In a bit of irony, you are arguing it's illogical for the Bible to be logical in its terminology. That would seem to be a self-defeating argument, don't you think?

1) Words, no matter what language we are talking about mean whatever the speakers assign to them.

Now this is actually a valid point, and that's what we observe in the Bible from the old to the new testament. The term sons of God, children of God, sons of the Mighty, etc. is used consistently to describe directly creations or new creations in Christ. Notice Luke's genealogy.

Luke 3:38 the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.​

only Adam is the son of God, and only he is the direct creation of God (assuming you believe the text).

Then there's the these references in Bible that all refer to angels.

Job 1:6 aNow there was a day when the bsons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and 1Satan also came among them.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the asons of God shouted for joy?

Psa. 89:6 For who in the heavens can be compared to the LORD?
Who among the sons of the mighty can be likened to the LORD?

Then you have the new testament references to those in Christ being called sons of God.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:​

Thus we're introduced to the concept of the sons of adam receiving the right to divine sonship. But it is for only those in Christ. It's a very significant new testament theological concept.

Gal. 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.​

So what I find on the subject is incredible consistency and logic, from Genesis to Revelation. The exception would be if you believe the sons of god to be human in Genesis 6. Then you've got an inconsistency, and thus a theo-logical issue. But if they are angels, as has been the view from antiquity, problem solved.
 
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ChetSinger

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Hello! I can't agree with you enough that we should attempt to determine the intent of such a term as "sons of God" by looking for it's original context.

But here's the kicker: in this case, it looks like we can. Because it's used again in the Pentateuch, in Deut 32, and that usage can be directly linked to the beliefs of Israel's northern ANE neighbor, Ugarit.

Deut 32:7-9 says that God divided the nations of mankind among the "sons of God", while keeping Israel for himself. So who were these sons of God? Ugaritic texts, dating from around the time of Moses, describe El, their word for God, as having 70 divine sons. And the Ugarits believed that one of those sons, named Baal, was an intermediary between themselves and El. Is it a coincidence that Moses' Table of Nations in Genesis includes 70 names? Nah. The implications are clear: both nations (neighbors whose languages had the same root) believed that God had sons who were spirits, were 70 in number, and governed the affairs of the nations on behalf of God. The difference is that Israel considered themselves the 71st nation, unique because they were the only one which had direct access to God without an intermediary.

There's been a lot written on this recently, perhaps because the Dead Sea scrolls have revealed that "sons of God" (Septuagint) instead of "children of Israel" (Masoretic) was the original reading of this passage in Deuteronomy.

Here's an example: Deuteronomy 32:8 and the Sons of God
 
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ThouShaltNotPoe

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Well mainly because the bible is consistent in is terminology. In a bit of irony, you are arguing it's illogical for the Bible to be logical in its terminology. That would seem to be a self-defeating argument, don't you think?

No. Absolutely no. OUTRAGEOUSLY no.

The Bible is NOT always "consistent" in its terminology---for many reasons. Including the fact that the OT is Hebrew/Aramaic and the NT is Greek! And there's so many other reasons that I am tempted to ask if you are kidding.

Your "theory" reminds me of a Christian businessman fellow with major foundation money back in the 1980's who was intent on publishing a theological lexicon of the Bible where he was DETERMINED to show that every word/term/phrase in the Bible had one CONSISTENT, primary meaning. Somehow he had developed the idea that he could end the growing numbers of "inconsistent" [his term] Bible translations. He was going to end that "problem" by publishing a series of "standard reference volumes" that would implement the "rule" you are claiming.

Yes, believe it or not, this newly saved but enthusiastic businessman was going to bring to Biblical scholarship the same corporate management techniques that had made him a success as a "fixer" in the business world. He was known for getting hired by corporate boards when an enterprise was on the brink of failing. He would get hired to take total control and bring a company back to profitability. So after Bill Bright led him to Christ while this businessman was taking him to the airport after a men's prayer breakfast, he eagerly devoured the Bible and was excited about everything he read. He also decided that God was calling him to bring his successful business management techniques to Biblical scholarship---and solve the "confusion" which he believed prevented Bible translations and Bible commentaries from ALL telling one consistent story and set of interpretations. He would resolve the eternal problem of Christians disagreeing with Christians---because "We are all called to obey a single Bible! How can we make disciples throughout the world if we can't tell a consistent story?"

He had somehow picked up the same "consistency of words" idea which you are claiming, and so he was going to make an "ultimate theological lexicon" which would revolutionize the Christian world. In his mind, every SIL/Wycliffe translators and all of the new Bible versions would use it. (It drove him nuts that Fred Danker's Bauer-Arndt-Gingrich Greek NT lexicon didn't give him just ONE definition of a word; it gave too many and that made it hard for him to do his own translations!) He cashed in his stock options and retired to a life of solving the problems of the world of Christian scholarship. He flew around the country meeting with a series of seminary faculties, taking them all out for steak dinners, pitching his pitch, his "God's boardroom" presentation, and recruiting them with healthy stipends to work on this "grand project." ALL of them told him the same thing: "The Bible doesn't work that way." But he told them, "Yes it does! God is logical. God is rational. So the Bible is too! I refuse to believe that God is the author of confusion!"

I'm paraphrasing from memory. The full story of the misbegotten project appeared in an article on the BSF forum back in 2011(??) or so. You should contact the retired professor who used to write under "VerySincere" on this ChristianForums.com. (He goes by Professor Tertius on some forums. He used to publish the Bible.and.Science.Forum series.) He's a retired seminary professor and worked on a number of Bible translation projects and was recruited by the aforementioned businessman. His publications have been important to the development of Biblical linguistics.He wrote an article on the old BSF that talked about that businessman's project how and how it was just another manifestation of a recurring myth in American Evangelicalism (and somewhat in the UK.)

What also struck me was how your paragraph uses rhetorical sleight-of-hand to try to goad the reader into making huge logical (or illogical) leaps by means of ....well....I can only call it the goading of condescension:

Well mainly because the bible is consistent in is terminology.
No. For example, semitic terminology is very different from Hellenistic terminology.

Have you noticed that your "rule" of hermeneutics is not found in any seminary textbook? Ever wonder why?

In a bit of irony, you are arguing it's illogical for the Bible to be logical in its terminology.
What a huge (and, frankly, deceptive) logical leap of your own! It is only slightly less audacious than "If you don't agree with me, you are rejecting the Bible." [which is a constant refrain of far too many young earth creationists on the Creation-Evolution forum.]

That would seem to be a self-defeating argument, don't you think?
I rest my case.

I'm curious: How much grad level training in exegesis do you have? Have you any experience with Bible translation work? The "rule" is so outrageously naive that I seriously doubt that you've ever "tested it" on anyone with a solid background in Biblical studies.

I'm tempted to ask YOU if you really expect us to believe that the Bible would be THAT illogical---- in expecting the authors to write in ways that were totally outside the understanding of their contemporaries because those authors, allegedly, ignored the linguistic structures of their contemporary audience/readers but they were willing to do so for the reason of making sure that English readers of 2013 would find CONSISTENT TERMINOLOGY that was "logical".

Do I really need to list the DOZENS of Biblical examples that absolutely blow your "consistency theory" out of the water? The claim is so absurd that I'll get by with just one: "Son of man." Now, while keeping a straight face, demonstrate to us that throughout the Bible that it only has ONE CONSISTENT MEANING. (After all, you said that if it does NOT have just one consistent meaning, the Bible is hopelessly illogical---according to you.)

And using your own words: That would seem to be a self-defeating argument, don't you think?

[Yes, I will freely admit that my rebuttal---to the rebuke you wrote against my remarks--- is harsh. But I'm astounded how often I see people with very limited training and experience in Biblical studies presuming to teach others these various bombastically sweeping "rules" of heremeneutics which exist only in their own imaginations.]

[And by the way, my post of 12:30am or whatever this morning was amended with by a series of drafts over that next hour or so. As a result the final version had substantial changes from the version you excerpted after the first draft. So hopefully I cleared up some of the initial ambiguities.]
 
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ChetSinger

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Should I understand that you are verysincere?
 
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ThouShaltNotPoe

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Professor Tertius (VerySincere) used to bring up hypothetical scenarios of 4,000 years in the future a group of archaeologists unearth various relics of "ancient civilizations", including 21st century American remnants. He would then discuss that future analysis of the linguistic and cultural clues to our "baffling society, just to show how many things seem obvious to us as native speakers but could be quite difficult for a future scholar to deduce.

For example, imagine finding a motorcycle jacket that says "Hell's Angels". Would not a literal interpretation be expected? Would a future scholar not expect that the owner of the jacket was an ANGEL---and most definitely from Hell?

And wouldn't the fact that the motorcycle was found near the jacket suggest that the prominent labeling of the jacket was meant to intimidate further all who saw those fallen angels? And would not the knifes and other weapons found in the pockets of the jacket and the storage compartments of the motorcycle reinforce the fear? And if many such motorcycles and jackets were found, wouldn't the scholars assume that this was a roving ARMY of fallen angels commissioned by Satan himself and issued standard warrior uniforms? And when another find at another location includes T-shirts with the motto, "Sons of the Hell's Angels", we can assume that they reflect another grim reality of military offensives.
 
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Aman777

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Originally Posted by Aman777
Here is the verse where the sons of God were "created."

Gen. 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after His kind: and God saw that it was good
Calminian:>>You're misinterpreting this passage. Take a look at another translation.


So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.​
Scripture divides the world into 3 parts, sky, land and sea. On day 5 the sea creatures and flying creatures (of the sky were made). On day six the land creatures.

Dear Cal, Sorry, but the flying creatures were also made the 6th Day. Genesis 2:19
And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

The problem with your interpretation is that it is obvious that the translators didn't know that the fowl made on Day 5 were made the same as the fowl made on Day 6:

Genesis 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after His kind: and God saw that it was good.

By removing "His kind" they took Jesus out of the Creation process. I think I will stick with the KJV which correctly shows that God created the fowl of the air AFTER the fowl which Jesus made from the earth on Day 6.


Cal:>>I realize you're trying to reconcile this with modern scientific theories about origins, but that's not the right approach. Let the Bible inform you about man-made theories rather than trying to force it into man-made theories.

I'm not trying to force anything. I am trying to show that God's Truth MUST agree with the discoveries of mankind, or we will continue to teach that Science and History are just Lies. IF God's Truth is the Truth, and It is, then it will agree with what we have observed. Otheriwise, there would be more than ONE Truth.

God's Truth IS the Truth in EVERY way. The problem is with man's interpretation.

In Love,
Aman
 
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