The Windsor (Eames) Report in pdf

wibsite.com/features/windsorreport/
Anyone that doesn't feel up to reading the whole thing can check out this very handy summarized version.

Hi Bingley,



You make some very good points. I sense however that in the great scheme of things churches and denominations are working together a little more and respecting each other as just another church trying to serve God according to the grace given and according to the Holy Spirit. Take corporate praise and worship for example, I think there is a growing tolerance that worship is to God and hymns spiritual songs to God and to one another is still worship if the heart is right and they are offered to God. (Eph 5). On the issue of women bishops, I find it difficult to take much of a firm stand on either side as there is quite a bit of scripture to consider on both ‘sides’ of the debate.

What I think has occurred here though is as you say the test case where liberals split from the rest. That can be seen in the content of the debate.

Having contested the scriptures that appear to condemn and exclude same-sex sex, Gen 2, Matt 19 and Mark 10, Gen 19, Lev 18, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim, Rom 1, Heb 13 at every single point in depth and come to an impass, we then find that not only are there are no scriptures that appear to countenance same-sex sex but the reasoning ‘monogamous faithful same-sex relationship’ isnt even scripture and many who have argued the scriptures don’t even believe they are inspired by the Holy Spirit anyway. So it seems those that claim same-sex sex are going to do so whatever, because their hearts are set on it at all costs. When homosexual Christians attack the testimonies of ex-gays and celibate homosexual Christian brothers and sisters, it just shows what the real heart is set on. Thats my opinion anyway

Ahab,

You bring up scriptural arguments about homosexuality which I hasten not to argue because this thread is not about that, and because the mods have made it clear that such a discussion is not to take place on this part of the board.

You make good points about the way worship has become more fluid with the greater interconnectedness of the globe, and I thank you for that.

I would argue, however, that your point that advocates of the current ECUSA and New Westminster positions are all arguing away from scripture or around scripture is not the case. Not that there aren't those elements, on both sides of the debate. But there are good theological and scriptural points to be made for blessing same sex unions and ordaining gay and lesbian people to the episcopate. The problem is that we have not made those arguments in a cumulative, concrete fashion. The Windsor report asks ECUSA and New Westminster to present theological and scriptural reasoning for the actions that have been taken, and I think this is a good thing, something that we should not be afraid to do. Part of being Anglican is recognizing the value of scripture and that Christ speaks his authority through it. And in my opinion, there's no reason why liberals should shy away from that.

I guess I'm just generally uncomfortable with the idea that meetings of the primates is something that we all have to ascribe ourselves to in order to be Anglican.

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This I can understand, and would sway me to agree that there's no good reason to start adding power or influence to another group - which very well could just end up adding a level of beurocracy.

Thats my opinion anyway

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Ahab - twice now you have stated your opinion on the homosexuality issue in this thread, where it is (technically) not permitted. This thread is about the report and its implications, not a place to chime in on the issues which produced the need for the Eames report.

But there are good theological and scriptural points to be made for blessing same sex unions and ordaining gay and lesbian people to the episcopate. The problem is that we have not made those arguments in a cumulative, concrete fashion.

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And I believe this is truly the issue at hand. ECUSA and the diocese of NW didn't exhaust all typical and available avenues of "the system" before acting contrary to or in protest of Anglican tradition. As much as people may differ on the issue itself, the problem and division is made worse when communication is faulty. I can see that acting in the way these churches have, it seems implicit to others that they not only disagree, but don't care or have respect for the organization they are a part of.

It feels like the person who takes (steals) something, something that that they feel shouldn't matter to the owner anyway (or could be put to better use elsewhere). The owner finds out and is hurt and offended, saying "I might very well have given it to you for nothing - but you should have at least asked."

I think the report stresses this point in the conclusion. It doesn't say, "if Anglicans cannot agree on the morality of homosexuality, we will not be able to continue as we are." Rather, it says that if we can't communicate and hold respect for one another regardless of our disagreements, we won't be able to continue as-is. I think there's plenty of room in the Anglican Church for both camps to co-exist, but giving in to an "us and them" mentality will be what kills us, not whether we think alike or not.

Hi ,J-Tron,

You bring up scriptural arguments about homosexuality which I hasten not to argue because this thread is not about that, and because the mods have made it clear that such a discussion is not to take place on this part of the board.

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Yes sorry, its difficult to talk about the Windsor report without referring to the main reason that prompted it, the breach of Lambeth 1.10.

But there are good theological and scriptural points to be made for blessing same sex unions and ordaining gay and lesbian people to the episcopate.

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Two points here. Firstly I do believe that Bishop Eames and the commission have presented a most prayful and considered report according to the remit given and they are perhaps right to ask for scripture. However if the scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit and taught by Jesus then it doesn't matter whether the NT writers understood about homosexuality, they are not writing human things but things of God, they make this clear, themselves. So I dont see the point of asking someone who thinks the scriptures are lacking in this way to give scriptures to support their view. One could simply reply that the scriptures prodcued are similarly flawed by man's understanding.
However what we now have is no excuse for provicial decisions but a framework for the communion. So the moratorium to adhere to Lambeth 1.10 is IMO the crucial bit.