The Torahic Kosher Project

Hix · Feb 16, 2004

The Thadman said:
I believe that you are misguided in this particular issue, and I have stated my reasons why.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

I believe Im not misguided on this issue and I havent seen any reasons why. HaShem gave the Rabbis the authority regardless if it DID come from Sinai or not, which indeed it did. its funny that you did not combat this arguement with any text from the Bible to back you up, your opinion is fine and dandy but the Bible says otherwise.

Im too tired to counter your other remarks but I will do so in the morning. Untill then might I advise you read perhaps Michael Levi or a few other JEWISH scholars on this matter?

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

The Thadman · Feb 16, 2004

Hix said:
I believe Im not misguided on this issue and I havent seen any reasons why. HaShem gave the Rabbis the authority regardless if it DID come from Sinai or not, which indeed it did. its funny that you did not combat this arguement with any text from the Bible to back you up, your opinion is fine and dandy but the Bible says otherwise.

Deuteronomy isn't scripture? Exodus isn't scripture? Revelation isn't scripture? Zechariah isn't scripture?

What Tanak are you reading?

Im too tired to counter your other remarks but I will do so in the morning. Untill then might I advise you read perhaps Michael Levi or a few other JEWISH scholars on this matter?

Shalom and G-d bless
~Hix~

What is this, anti-NON-semiticism? In following YHWH am I separate from the Jews?

What gives?

Furthermore, PLEASE tell me why Abib is no longer the first month of the Jewish calendar according to Oral Law.

Exodus 12:2
2 This month (Abib) shall be to you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year to you.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Shamash Of Yeshua · Feb 17, 2004

The Thadman said:
"Which Mishnah?" is the question. For example, the Mishnah in the Talmud represents many differing (often diametrically opposed) opinions that banter back and forth without any final decision.

I personally feel that the Oral Traditions (which are very relevant in any talk of Kosher) break the Torah's declaration never to add or subtract from God's Word, as (for example) we are told "do not eat a goat-kid boiled in its mother's milk" to "you may not eat any meat and any milk together whatsoever" to some traditions which state "you MUST have separate kitchens for meat and milk." The milk and meat are going to the same place (your stomach), it's just that when you boil a goat kid in its mother's milk, it'll mess with your body's chemical balance.

I know that there are many people who claim that the Oral Traditions date back to Sinai, but there is no record of them. The claims of Oral Tradition dating from Sinai date back to a time after Ezra, and absolutely nothing exists before then.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Just a thought that came to mind when I read your post:
When the Chosen Ones of YHWH would obey YHWH HE would let them know they are going in the right direction since they had the High Priest to stand before YHWH and all the Priests to tend to the Nation that was Chosen between as Mediators between the non-Preist peoples of the Nation of Israel. And they would have to know their portion of the Torah without having to have it in written form so that the WORDS of YHWH can be preserved without Written Form for such a long time. Also YHWH gave signs to the Priests of YHWH how ever minimal they might have been. They the Chosen ones that are left over and also those called out from around the world that have the Tradition to Serve YHWH as HE saw FIT, they are the vehicle through which the world would be brought to Yerusalem(hope I spelt that right) to LEARN the TRUE WAYS OF YHWH as preserved through the ORAL Torah that is WRITTEN Down now for ALL to SEE. Yet to understand what is Written down they must be LEAD of the RUACH of YHWH. How do you know you are being as a Sheep lead by his SHEPARD in terms of Listening to HIS VOICE how ever you might hear HIS WORDS of WISDOM to LIVE BY.
In terms of Which talmud or opinions of councils that were lead in the RUACH OF YHWH, as they all would claim. Remember WE CAN TELL THEM BY THEIR FRUITS. Yet "which Fruits are the Right Fruits?" one might ask. How do we know the Fruits that are bore out in YHWH's WAYs that HE set forth to the ONLY ONES IN THE WHOLE WORLD WHO WOULD FOLLOW HIM? YOU say your a Jew by birth and you follow all of Torah according to one Talmud or another. Jews are very opiniated(Meant in a good way ) in that they will discuss the issues of the FRUITS of YHWH. Yet even those who are not born Jewish by blood can become part of that CHOSEN NATION OF ISRAEL, and therefore learn the FRUITS of the RUACH OF YHWH and therefore are as much CHOSEN as those BORN INTO TORAH of YHWH.
Man as a whole is born into the WORLD and therefore has the potential to be evil or to be Righteous(meaning right with YHWH) in the sight of YHWH, for HE sees all.
So we have talked of those who are born into the WAYS of YHWH, TORAH, and those who choose to be part of those who follow YHWH's WAYs.
Have you studied the History of Israel(Chosen Ones of YHWH) to the point of understanding the closeness of the People of Israel to YHWH. In Egypt as well as coming out of Egypt YHWH was visibly helping HIS Chosen Flock. In the first part we have a nation that is starting out with 12 branches bore by Jacob who later became Israel. YHWH does things in life for a reason. 10 of the 11 brothers sold Joseph into slavery and meant Evil by it. Yet YHWH used this Evil Jealous Rage to SAVE the Newborn Nation of Israel which YHWH promised to Abraham. Now in Egypt Joseph was Blessed by YHWH in many capacities. Meaning when Joseph was placed into next to Ultimate Power in the Nation of Egypt(This nation represents the worldly ways which YHWH takes over by placing HIS Chosen ONE into POWER, which HE saved from TOTAL STARVATION). Soon as YHWH sees that all is Ready HE will bring into being through HIS Chosen ONES HIS WAYS according to TORAH and YESHUA HAMASHIACH(He was placed into HIGHEST Authority as Joseph was, yet this time, from all life that was born into this world, He, Yeshua HaMashiach will straighten out the crooked ways of this World with an Iron Rod.
Israel has always been the ONES who were Chosen to TEACH YHWH's WAYS to the WORLD, yet the WORLD wouldn't have the WAYS of YHWH at all without MIXING what THEY believe into YHWH's Ways.
So would you rather STARVE then eat un-kosher food or would you rather fill your stomach with the garbage eaters of the world as many do. Like this; Is a little pollution to much pollution?
So who are we to believe? Those who claim that they have the WORD's of YHWH all worked out whether in code or spiritual understanding. Who is to tell the rest what the TRUE WAYS of YHWH are?
WHICH TRADITIONS HAVE BEEN AROUND THE LONGEST?
There are YHWH's TRADITIONS and then there are MAN's TRADITIONS. Which are right in the MAN's Traditions? N...O...N...E...
Now whos Traditions shall we follow? YHWH's. Yet we are being taught by Men who have grown up in one culture of another that believe they know the WORD of YHWH. There are MANY in this world and for thousands of YEARS there have been much more, who claim to know what to teach, they are called TEACHERS, or at least they claim to be TEACHERS of YHWH.
Now who is the MEDIATOR BETWEEN YHWH AND MAN? It sure isn't any MAN in this World. It is the RUACH of YHWH. Tell me when will the MESSIAH be the ONE who TEACHES ALL MAN the TRUE WAYS OF YHWH? WHILE HE IS GONE WE HAVE THE RUACH OF YHWH TO TEACH US, IF ONLY WE WOULD SEARCH YHWH's WAYs OF LIFE. And when HAMASHIACH comes we will KNOW THE TRUTH AND IT SHALL SET US FREE. ARE YOU PERFECT? I SURE HOPE YOUR TRYING! For you can only get out of a hole if you climb out. YHWH sure can throw you a line to help, yet we have to be able to HEAR HIS STILL SMALL VOICE to be able to know where to REACH.
Would YHWH leave us without being able to KNOWING THE TRUTH? NO WAY will HE leave us without a way to find the TRUTHS. YET we have a problem, and that is that MAN is involved in finding the TRUTH of YHWH. For instance in the form of manuscripts written by men long ago. And you know there are many manuscripts and not all agree. So you see we have a problem don't we. Who were the keepers of truth during the last 2000 years? I tell you I don't know for sure, yet I know just a mite of those that don't fit with YHWH's WAYS for their realm is ran by MAN's TRADITIONS and NOT YHWH's.
Please forgive my long drawn out speech that many might just pass up because of the length of thought that circles around in mind and spirit with HOPE of FINDING THE TRUTH SEEKERS and learning from such as I have.

Shalom, Shalom and Shalom,

Tag

Hix · Feb 17, 2004

The Thadman said:
Deuteronomy isn't scripture? Exodus isn't scripture? Revelation isn't scripture? Zechariah isn't scripture?
What Tanak are you reading?

Very good, but I was referencing your last point in which I quoted. You didnt use any biblical references to show that HaShem gave authority to the Rabbis, why? I showed you several.

The Thadman said:
What is this, anti-NON-semiticism? In following YHWH am I separate from the Jews?
What gives?

Who said anything about that? *scratches head* I merely suggested you try reading some Jewish points of view on this matter. If your going to follow HaShem whether or not The Oral Torah came from Sinai is irrelevant. I believe it did, like I said the Torah tells us what to do and the Oral Torah tells us how to do it, without it you cannot fully understand Torah. Almost all of your problems with the Talmud are either out of context or you just dont know how to read it. Ever heard of a midrash?

The Thadman said:
Furthermore, PLEASE tell me why Abib is no longer the first month of the Jewish calendar according to Oral Law

"Our Rabbis taught, Based on three things is the year intercalated: on the Abib, on the fruits of the trees, and on the equinox. Based on two of them the year is intercalated but based on one of them alone the year is not intercalated. And when the Abib is one of them everyone is pleased." (Bavli Sanhedrin 11b)
We see here that there were 3 factors used to determine when the year begins:
1) The Abib;
2) The Fruits of the Trees; and
3) the Vernal Equinox.
If 2 of the 3 factors indicated a 13th month must be added, the year was made a leap year. But all recognized that Abib is most important factor and when Abib was one of the 2 deciding factors all were happy.
Im sure Im going to get countered with an arguement of some kind so Il mention also that Abib in mishnaic hebrew was not a season as it is in modern hebrew, it is used many other times and refers to an agricultural term which describes ripening barley.

The Thadman said:
What's confusing here?
#1) Read how this is phrased: "And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes."
We don't see the normal word for tying a knot here, but the word "to strengthen." So we're to strengthen his words upon our hands as a sign. Our actions.
They will be LIKE frontlets between your eyes. God never commanded Tefillin, yet this verse is verbatim in 4 of the 5 books of Torah (except Exodus 13:9 uses the term "memorial/in your memory" instead of "frontlets").
This entire verse, as I can see it, flows from the verse that comes at the beginning:
6 These words, which I command you this day, shall be on your heart;
Does this mean that we need to have surgery to implant them into our chest or brain? NO. We're to follow him in thought, and in deed.
#2) There is no archeological evidence to support Tefillin until thousands of years after Sinai.
#3) The forehead and hand is used figuratively throughout the Bible to indicate both thought and deed.

Thats interesting, but why did you seemingly ignore when I wrote that phylacteries are mentioned in the New Testament? How would you and your archeology explain that without inadvertantly calling the Brit Hadasha uninspired? If HaShem didnt mean for tefflin or tallitot then why is it later mentioned in the Bible and why did Yeshua himself don them? The only place you can find the detail on this is in the Oral Torah, the saducees did not follow oral law and look how confused they were, they nailed their Tallitot to the wall and were so confused regarding Shabbat laws they did not even get up at all. Without the Oral law there would be a million confused ideals of what this verse means, including yours, but as we see the Bible records the usage of Tefflin

The Thadman said:
There is no such thing as a "kosher slaughter" in Torah The commands are listed right there in the same chapter. Don't eat the blood, can't be an unclean animal, etc. all defined within Torah.

Deuteronomy 12:21 If the place which the LORD thy G-d hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee
Yes I can see that it gos on to talk about how to eat and not to eat but thats not what is said here, with bolding these bits I can show you that the Torah clearly says to kill the heard of flock as I have commanded thee. As you admitted yourself, there is no details on kosher slaughter in the Torah, only commands to do it, only the Oral Torah contains the details.

The Thadman said:
#1) The Hebrew LITTERALLY reads, "and gave an interpretation," or "and gave insight" (no definite article). I don't see any mention of Mishnah or Gemara, anywhere.
#2) Notice how they SEPERATED (the word "distinctly") the interpretation from the Torah. This insight was not Torah.
#3) If this were the Oral Torah, it's described as Ezra's interpretation. In other words it SURE as hell didn't come from Sinai.
This is a very tenuous argument, Hix.

Could you watch your language please?
I do note that you noticed the strong possibility that this could very well be the Oral Torah, you seem to forget that it probobly wasnt written down at any point by now so there would be no such thing as Mishnah or Gemara, it is simply the Oral tradition for interperation of the Law. I believe it did come from Sinai, but as I said whether it did or didnt doesnt take away that HaShem gives it full authority.

The Thadman said:
I don't see an Oral Torah at work here.
3 Now therefore let us make a covenant with our God to put away all the wives, and such as are born of them, according to the counsel of my lord, and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God; and let it be done according to the law.
There is a BIG separation here. The children being put away is at the counsel of Ezra, NOT God, NOT the Torah. The crowd wanted it to be done in accordance with the Torah as well, and this was brought up separately.
This is not helping your case.

So, the Torah had it that the means of rectifying the situation of a Jew intermarrying is to not only cut off the gentile wife, but also cut off the children as well. The Written Torah is but only the beginning. The Oral Torah completes it. They are inseparable companions.
If it was done at the council of Exra then it would have been a change to the Torah for you becuase you do not accept Oral Torah. Did you ever consider that their decision might have been influenced by the Oral tradition passed from Sinai in interperating laws such as this?

The Thadman said:
This COMPLETELY goes against what you're saying! God said that the four FASTS the Rabbim ordained were WRONG and turned them into FEASTS. God did NOT like their tradition because they were afflicting themselves, so what did he do? He picked them up, dusted them off and said, DON'T TO IT AGAIN.

Why didnt you give us all a quote so we could see were indeed HaShem does that? The rabbinical authorities of the time ordained that the Jewish people fast on those days to commemorate these events, those being the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem (Fast of Tammuz), the destruction of the Temple (Tisha B'Av), the assassination of Gedaliah (Fast of Gedaliah), and the beginning of the siege of Jerusalem (Fast of Tevet). But this verse clearly indicates that G-d DID approve of the fasts, so were did they get their authority to ordain these fasts?

The Thadman said:
They were to pass judgment based on the Law of Moses, not their own oral traditions. Their words could not supersede God's Torah. Again this does not help your case.

So thats a partial admission that HaShem has given the Rabbi's the authority to create something as this based around G-ds Torah? Their words did not superceed G-ds if they did make it up, and if they did then the Bible clearly indicates it is binding anyway.
Like I said in Dueteronomy 30 HaShem says the Torah is not in heaven, it is WITH us, the Jewish people have been chosen out of all the nations to be his holy nation and preserve his holy scriptures and to interperate them. There is nowhere that the Talmud conflicts with the Torah if read correctly, the two are companions, had G-d just given us the written Torah then there would be millenia of arguing and bickering and worse of all people not fulfilling G-ds law becuase they arent sure how to. That is why HaShem gave instructions and an explaination to the people, makes sence no?
Like I said "Whatever direction that took the society in was therefore correct provided they didn't step outside existing law from Sinai" and whatever direction they took IS binding according to the Bible. So even if they DID make it up, the Bible gives it the authority ANYWAY. You have failed to present any scripture or arguements to the contrary.

On a final note I hope I have not come across forcefull or even insulting as I gathered from your last point, I certainly didnt mean to and I hope you can forgive me
Shalom and G-d bless!
~Hix~

iitb · Feb 17, 2004

As you admitted yourself, there is no details on kosher slaughter in the Torah, only commands to do it,

I have no intention of entering this debate, but I will say that the above statement isn't entirely true. Give me a few minutes, and I'll get back to you on it.

Hix · Feb 17, 2004

Sure thing, I havent found any info on kosher slaughtering in the Torah but I wouldnt be surprised if there was.

iitb · Feb 17, 2004

Okay, I've decided to cheat a little. Most of this comes from the lecture Biblical Kosher by Nehemia Gordon. The outline can be found here: http://karaites-usa.org/Target_Tanakh/biblically_kosher.htm , and audio files of the entire lecture can be found here: http://www.ancient-paths.net/audio.html

Anyway, from Nehemia's outline...

Slaughtering (Lev 17; Dt 12) and Blood

1. No domesticated animals (bull, goat, sheep) may be slaughtered except as a sacrifice. The sacrificial flesh may be eaten but only in a state of ritual purity. The blood must be poured out on the altar. (Lev 17:3-12)

2. Wild animals (e.g. deer, gazelle) and birds may be killed anywhere and eaten as non-sacrifice while in a state of ritual impurity. The blood must be spilled on the ground and covered with earth. (Lev 17:13-14)

3. When you are far from the chosen place (Tabernacle, Temple) you may slaughter domesticated animals as non-sacrifices. The blood must be spilled "on the ground like water", i.e. not on an altar outside the Temple. (Dt 12:13-27)

4. Sacrifices must still be brought to the Temple, even if you are far away and the blood spilled on the altar. (Dt 12:13-27)

The 2 Torah chapters in question:

Tanach - Leviticus Chapter 17

1. And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
2. Speak to Aaron, and to his sons, and to all the people of Israel, and say to them; This is the thing which the Lord has commanded, saying,
3. Which ever man there is of the house of Israel, who kills an ox, or lamb, or goat, in the camp, or who kills it out of the camp,
4. And brings it not to the door of the Tent of Meeting, to offer an offering to the Lord before the tabernacle of the Lord; blood shall be imputed to that man; he has shed blood; and that man shall be cut off from among his people;
5. To the end that the people of Israel may bring their sacrifices, which they offer in the open field, that they may bring them to the Lord, to the door of the Tent of Meeting, to the priest, and offer them for peace offerings to the Lord.
6. And the priest shall sprinkle the blood upon the altar of the Lord at the door of the Tent of Meeting, and burn the fat for a sweet savor to the Lord.
7. And they shall no more offer their sacrifices to demons, after whom they play the harlot. This shall be a statute forever to them throughout their generations.
8. And you shall say to them, Whoever there is of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice,
9. And brings it not to the door of the Tent of Meeting, to offer it to the Lord; that man shall be cut off from among his people.
10. And whoever there is of the house of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who eats any kind of blood; I will set my face against that soul who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.
11. For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.
12. Therefore I said to the people of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, nor shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
13. And whoever there is of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among you, who hunts and catches any beast or bird that may be eaten; he shall pour out its blood, and cover it with dust.
14. For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for its life; therefore I said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any kind of flesh; for the life of all flesh is its blood; whoever eats it shall be cut off.
15. And every soul who eats that which died of itself, or that which was torn by beasts, whether he is one of your own country, or a stranger, he shall both wash his clothes, and bathe himself in water, and be unclean until the evening; then shall he be clean.
16. But if he washes them not, nor bathe his flesh; then he shall bear his iniquity.

Tanach - Deuteronomy Chapter 12

1. These are the statutes and judgments, which you shall take care to do, in the land, which the Lord God of your fathers gives you to possess all the days that you live upon the earth.
2. You shall completely destroy all the places, where the nations which you shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree;
3. And you shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their Asherim with fire; and you shall cut down the carved images of their gods, and destroy their names out of that place.
4. You shall not do so to the Lord your God.
5. But to the place which the Lord your God shall choose out of all your tribes to put his name there, to his habitation shall you seek, and there you shall come;
6. And there you shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks;
7. And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice in all that you put your hand to, you and your households, because the Lord your God has blessed you.
8. You shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatever is right in his own eyes.
9. For you are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the Lord your God gives you.
10. But when you go over the Jordan, and live in the land which the Lord your God gives you to inherit, and when he gives you rest from all your enemies around, so that you live in safety;
11. Then there shall be a place which the Lord your God shall choose to cause his name to dwell there; there shall you bring all that I command you; your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the offering of your hand, and all your choice vows which you vow to the Lord;
12. And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you, and your sons, and your daughters, and your menservants, and your maidservants, and the Levite who is inside your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.
13. Take heed to yourself that you offer not your burnt offerings in every place that you see;
14. But only in the place which the Lord shall choose in one of your tribes, there you shall offer your burnt offerings, and there you shall do all that I command you.
15. However you may slaughter animals and eat their meat in all your gates, to your hearts desire, according to the blessing of the Lord, your God which he has given you; the unclean and the clean may eat of it, as they do of the gazelle and the deer.
16. Only you shall not eat the blood; you shall pour it upon the earth like water.
17. You may not eat inside your gates the tithe of your grain, or of your wine, or of your oil, or the firstlings of your herds or of your flock, nor any of your vows which you vow, nor your freewill offerings, or offering of your hand;
18. But you must eat them before the Lord your God in the place which the Lord your God shall choose, you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite who is inside your gates; and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God in all that you put your hands to.
19. Take heed to yourself that you forsake not the Levite as long as you live upon the earth.
20. When the Lord your God shall enlarge your border, as he has promised you, and you shall say, I will eat meat, because your soul longs to eat meat; you may eat meat, to your hearts desire.
21. If the place which the Lord your God has chosen to put his name there is too far from you, then you shall kill of your herd and of your flock, which the Lord has given you, as I have commanded you, and you shall eat in your gates, to your hearts desire.
22. Like the gazelle and the deer are eaten, so you shall eat them; the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike.
23. Only be sure that you eat not the blood; for the blood is the life; and you may not eat the life with the flesh.
24. You shall not eat it; you shall pour it upon the earth as water.
25. You shall not eat it; that it may go well with you, and with your children after you, when you shall do that which is right in the sight of the Lord.
26. Only your holy things which you have, and your vows, you shall take, and go to the place which the Lord shall choose.
27. And you shall offer your burnt offerings, the meat and the blood, upon the altar of the Lord your God; and the blood of your sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the Lord your God, and you shall eat the meat.
28. Observe and hear all these words which I command you, that it may go well with you, and with your children after you forever, when you do that which is good and right in the sight of the Lord your God.
29. When the Lord your God shall cut off the nations from before you, where you go to dispossess them, and live in their land;
30. Take heed to yourself that you be not snared by following them, after they are destroyed from before you; and that you inquire not about their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? that I may also do likewise.
31. You shall not do so to the Lord your God; for every abomination to the Lord, which he hates, have they done to their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burned in the fire to their gods.

Basically, the Torah provides locations for slaughters, and states that the blood is either to be spilled on the ground and covered, or spilled on the altar. I would consider that as defining a method of slaughter . However, If you're looking for the particulars of where and how to cut, the you do need the Talmud.

As an aside, I'd point out that even those who claim to only eat kosher by Biblical standards need to stay away from the meat found in most supermarkets. In the case of cattle, they are killed with a blow to the head, and the blood is allowed to stay in the body long enough to congeal, thus making the meat unkosher by both Talmudic as well as Biblical definitions.

The Thadman · Feb 20, 2004

Sorry that it took me so long to reply. I've been busy with school, and just haven't had the volition to continue the debate for some time.

"Our Rabbis taught, Based on three things is the year intercalated: on the Abib, on the fruits of the trees, and on the equinox. Based on two of them the year is intercalated but based on one of them alone the year is not intercalated. And when the Abib is one of them everyone is pleased." (Bavli Sanhedrin 11b)
We see here that there were 3 factors used to determine when the year begins:
1) The Abib;
2) The Fruits of the Trees; and
3) the Vernal Equinox.
If 2 of the 3 factors indicated a 13th month must be added, the year was made a leap year. But all recognized that Abib is most important factor and when Abib was one of the 2 deciding factors all were happy.
Im sure Im going to get countered with an arguement of some kind so Il mention also that Abib in mishnaic hebrew was not a season as it is in modern hebrew, it is used many other times and refers to an agricultural term which describes ripening barley

But this does not touch on the following verses:

----------
Exodus 12:2
2 This month (Abib) shall be to you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year to you.
----------

Why did the Rabbim explicitly transgress God's command (which he states TWICE in one verse) and make Tishri the first month?

Thats interesting, but why did you seemingly ignore when I wrote that phylacteries are mentioned in the New Testament? How would you and your archeology explain that without inadvertantly calling the Brit Hadasha uninspired? If HaShem didnt mean for tefflin or tallitot then why is it later mentioned in the Bible and why did Yeshua himself don them? The only place you can find the detail on this is in the Oral Torah, the saducees did not follow oral law and look how confused they were, they nailed their Tallitot to the wall and were so confused regarding Shabbat laws they did not even get up at all. Without the Oral law there would be a million confused ideals of what this verse means, including yours, but as we see the Bible records the usage of Tefflin

They're mentioned, but only mentioned in criticism within the context of, not just the Saducees, but the PHARISEES (the fathers of the tradition that eventually became the Talmud) and their vain Oral Traditions to be seen by men.

There is no mention in all of the Brit Hadasha of Jesus wearing Tiffilin, none nadda zip zilch.

He is only said to have worn Tzitziyot, as all three of the synoptics attest to (Mk 6:56; Lk 8:44; Mt 9:20).

I won't touch on Deuteronomy 12:21 as it has already been addressed that Kosher slaughter is in the Torah, and that it cannot be denied that that is what God commanded.

Could you watch your language please?
I do note that you noticed the strong possibility that this could very well be the Oral Torah, you seem to forget that it probobly wasnt written down at any point by now so there would be no such thing as Mishnah or Gemara, it is simply the Oral tradition for interperation of the Law. I believe it did come from Sinai, but as I said whether it did or didnt doesnt take away that HaShem gives it full authority.

What language did I use to offend you? Please let me apologize.

I did not note a strong possibility at all. This is Ezra's council, not Oral Torah. It came from Ezra, not Sinai. There is nothing in the text to warrant such a conclusion in the slightest.

So, the Torah had it that the means of rectifying the situation of a Jew intermarrying is to not only cut off the gentile wife, but also cut off the children as well. The Written Torah is but only the beginning. The Oral Torah completes it. They are inseparable companions.
If it was done at the council of Exra then it would have been a change to the Torah for you becuase you do not accept Oral Torah. Did you ever consider that their decision might have been influenced by the Oral tradition passed from Sinai in interperating laws such as this?

But their decision and the Torah of Moses were strictly separated by their language. They wanted Ezra's council to be done in accordance with the Written Torah, not the other way around.

You're grasping at straws, Hix.

Why didnt you give us all a quote so we could see were indeed HaShem does that? The rabbinical authorities of the time ordained that the Jewish people fast on those days to commemorate these events, those being the breaching of the walls of Jerusalem (Fast of Tammuz), the destruction of the Temple (Tisha B'Av), the assassination of Gedaliah (Fast of Gedaliah), and the beginning of the siege of Jerusalem (Fast of Tevet). But this verse clearly indicates that G-d DID approve of the fasts, so were did they get their authority to ordain these fasts?

God obviously did not approve the fasts, as he said to turn them into feasts. If he says to do something, it is not Man's will, but God's.

Again, this is another passage of God correcting the traditions of men, not a case for an Oral Torah.

So thats a partial admission that HaShem has given the Rabbi's the authority to create something as this based around G-ds Torah? Their words did not superceed G-ds if they did make it up, and if they did then the Bible clearly indicates it is binding anyway.

Let me put it this way: If they're making things up then Israel is screwed, because they'd transgress the Law of God and thereby sin. The Bible indicates that their ruling must be with the Torah, as it did in Ezra.

Like I said in Dueteronomy 30 HaShem says the Torah is not in heaven, it is WITH us, the Jewish people have been chosen out of all the nations to be his holy nation and preserve his holy scriptures and to interperate them. There is nowhere that the Talmud conflicts with the Torah if read correctly, the two are companions, had G-d just given us the written Torah then there would be millenia of arguing and bickering and worse of all people not fulfilling G-ds law becuase they arent sure how to. That is why HaShem gave instructions and an explaination to the people, makes sence no?

It talks about the Torah being in our heart. Also notice verses 9-10:

9 Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
10 if you shall obey the voice of Yahweh your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the Torah; if you turn to Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul.

No Oral Torah The rest of the passage deals with how the Torah is not hard to follow.

Furthermore, the Priests, Levites, and Judges who were in authority would make a discussion based upon Torah concerning a matter of controversy on a case by case basis, not some overarching tradition that grows like a stalactite over thousands of years. You are reading between the lines to force your doctrine upon the Torah

Like I said "Whatever direction that took the society in was therefore correct provided they didn't step outside existing law from Sinai" and whatever direction they took IS binding according to the Bible. So even if they DID make it up, the Bible gives it the authority ANYWAY. You have failed to present any scripture or arguements to the contrary.

I have presented much scripture so instead of me simply stating so, let's read it together:

8 If there arise a matter too hard for you in judgment, between bloodshed and bloodshed, between plea and plea, and between wound and wound, being matters of controversy within your gates[/b]; then shall you arise, and go up to the place which Yahweh your God shall choose;

Deut 17:8 and on speaks of problems between BLOODSHED AND BLOODSHED, PLEA AND PLEA, and WOUND AND WOUND. We're talking about court cases here involving the spilling of blood, entering pleas, and wounding, not some Oral Torah.

Their decision concerning retribution and sentencing in a court case. Note the verses before it:

Deut 17:2
2 If there be found in the midst of you, within any of your gates which Yahweh your God gives you, man or woman, who does that which is evil in the sight of Yahweh your God, in transgressing his covenant,
3 and has gone and served other gods, and worshiped them, or the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of the sky, which I have not commanded;
4 and it be told you, and you have heard of it, then shall you inquire diligently; and, behold, if it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is done in Israel,
5 then shall you bring forth that man or that woman, who has done this evil thing, to your gates, even the man or the woman; and you shall stone them to death with stones.
6 At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he who is to die be put to death; at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
7 The hand of the witnesses shall be first on him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. So you shall put away the evil from the midst of you.

They would have to back their decision with the Law, and the people were NOT allowed to take justice into their own hands.

Deut 17:11
11 according to the tenor of the law which they shall teach you, and according to the judgment which they shall tell you, you shall do; you shall not turn aside from the sentence which they shall show you, to the right hand, nor to the left.
12 The man who does presumptuously, in not listening to the priest who stands to minister there before Yahweh your God, or to the judge, even that man shall die: and you shall put away the evil from Israel.
13 All the people shall hear, and fear, and do no more presumptuously.

This is completely against the idea of an Oral Torah, Hix, and requires a complete re-interpretation of the the penalties listed to extrapolate your idea to the Talmud, because the Talmud doesn't just deal with the aforementioned principles, but such things as dragging your chair on the Sabbath.

On a final note I hope I have not come across forcefull or even insulting as I gathered from your last point, I certainly didnt mean to and I hope you can forgive me
Shalom and G-d bless!
~Hix~

You came off as forceful (which is expected in a debate) but not insulting. I have no problems with you, only your worldview.

Shlomo d-Aloho `amokh
(God's peace be with you)

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