The Stumbling Block

Fineous_Reese · Apr 30, 2005

MercuryMJ said:
if you limit the death to human death, then I have no argument with you. I consider that a possible reading too. My points were to establish that animal death is not evil and is not the result of sin.

that's something i've been wondering about TE's, do you (any TE reading this) believe humans evolved along with everything else? or were humans a special instance of spontaneous creation?

Marshall Janzen · Apr 30, 2005

I think humans share a common ancestor along with all other living things. I don't know what sort of intervention God used either to bring humans about or to raise them above the other creatures. My guess is that our soul did not evolve but was given by God to these creatures, but I'm not even sure about that.

I don't think that humans were created immortal. However, the tree of life may symbolize that God placed the first humans in an environment where they would be supernaturally sustained and not die. If so, then when they were kicked out of Eden and separated from the tree, they were once again subject to death the same as all other living things. When we will regain access to the tree of life as depicted in Revelation, we will again be able to live eternally. So, I take the tree as a symbol of God's action, and not as a magic tree in and of itself.

But, that's just one idea. I don't think it's too important to know exactly how things were in Eden (or exactly how they'll be in heaven, which I believe will be far better than Eden rather than a return to Eden), but it's fun to speculate.

Biliskner · May 1, 2005

grmorton said:
The above sounds contradictory. If you are about to graduate, then surely you had at least one professor teach you something and thus you are not self-taught.

they don't teach anything as such. they present data and let us work at it. it's called critical thinking. the line is more skewed in the sciences than in the arts but you are right in that some lecturers preach rather than teach, and that is what makes them boring.

grmorton said:
Some try to teach you that there are limits to how much differentiation can occur in evolution. Many try to teach you that evolution is against the second law of thermodynamics. Many try to teach you a theory which would require angiosperms on earth during the precambrian. Many try to tell you that the coal beds are the result of the burial of one preflood biosphere, when the plants found in successively stacked coal beds are entirely different from one another (Cretaceous coals don't have lycopods but Pennsylvanian coals do). So, I don't know how on earth you can make such a claim.

i'm not going to argue with you.
you say AiG is illogical.
the Pharisees of Jesus' time said Jesus was illogical (and many other things.)
is phlogiston illogical? depends in which century you were born.

grmorton said:
So you defend the concept of animals leaving trails and tracks on thousands of different layers during the global flood? What were they doing walking around when the world had been flooded for 6 months?

i defend the yom usage in Genesis, as outlined in: http://www.grisda.org/origins/21005.htm

and i defend that the science of today is not the "be all and end all, see it change as you age, and be 100% sure that the science you know in the present time will not be the same inbetween the time you die and the day your grandchildren die."

grmorton said:
As I understood what you claimed was that these guys are using YEC in their endeavors. They aren't I know a few YECs in the oil business, but they never use YEC at work. It is an after work hobby. That was also the way I did it when I was a YEC

But if one is looking for evidence of them using YEC at work, they aren't. Just because they believe YEC doesn't mean they are actually doing YEC science.

and that is how old age evolution (whatever) works.
some go out and try and find facts to fit it, others use it as you say, a "hobby".

do you go out everyday looking into the world and try and find facts that fit into your Christianity? if not, then is Christianity one of your hobbies?

no one actually goes out to their work and say: "today i'm netural, i'll do some work and see if it is evolution or creation evidence and fit it accordingly" - every single person in this world is biased, thus the whole debate on the interpretation of the evidence at hand - but as i said, i'm not arguing with you, since the worldview i hold is "illogical"

Biliskner · May 1, 2005

Vance said:
Again, this "no death before the fall" doctrine is an awfully big doctrine with very thin support when you consider the whole of the evidence.

are you going to heaven Vance? will it be a physical heaven? a heaven that resembles this one in all its physical reality? a heaven where i worship God 24/7 and can speak to all my Christian brothers and sisters face to face?

"the whole "resurrection of the dead at Christ's second coming" doctrine is an awfully big doctrine with very thin support when you consider the whole of the evidence."

think about what you are saying.

Christianity revolves around God and his Messiah; that means supernatural events - do you believe that God was literally a "pillar of fire by night and a pillar of cloud by day" in the Exodus of the Israelites?

Biliskner · May 1, 2005

...and of course God's grace towards his people.

grmorton · May 1, 2005

Biliskner said:
they don't teach anything as such. they present data and let us work at it. it's called critical thinking. the line is more skewed in the sciences than in the arts but you are right in that some lecturers preach rather than teach, and that is what makes them boring.

Talk about an ungratious student. You really think you learned everything with your own intelligence? And you are the guy who said in another thread that you couldn't understand the Noah's ark faq on T. O. It is post 217 here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1484169-theistic-evolution-is-unbiblical.html&page=22

If that is true, I don't think you capable of learning on your own.

Of the different plants found in coals of different ages, you said:

i'm not going to argue with you.
you say AiG is illogical.
the Pharisees of Jesus' time said Jesus was illogical (and many other things.)
is phlogiston illogical? depends in which century you were born.

This is a nice way of saying you don't care about the observational data.

i defend the yom usage in Genesis, as outlined in: http://www.grisda.org/origins/21005.htm

I would ask why the author ignores what St. Basil said about Day 1. He differentiated it from the others turning it into an eternity past, and he didn't think it was a 24 hour day.

St. Basil:
Thus whether you call it day, or whether you call it eternity, you express the same idea. Give this state the name of day; there are not several, but only one. If you call it eternity still it is unique and not manifold. Thus it is in order that you may carry your thoughts forward towards a future life, that Scripture marks by the word "one" the day which is the type of eternity, the first fruits of days, the contemporary of light, the holy Lord's day honoured by the Resurrection of our Lord. And the evening and the morning were one day."

St. Basil, Homily II, one can get this electronically at:

http://ccel.wheaton.edu/fathers2/

I would also ask why the author doesn't take into account what the pre-scientific Jews thought of the Genesis account. Even Jewish Rabbi's noted that the phraseology of 'one day' instead of 'the first day' marks Day one as being something special and different.

"Instead, it says one day. See Rashi who says that according to the regular mode of expression it should have really said 'the first day.' He explains, however, the expression 'one day' on the basis of the Midrash: It is 'because the Holy One, blessed be He, was then the Only One (the Sole Being) in his Huniverse, since the angels were not created until the second day.' One day tus means 'the day of the One Being.'" Ramban (Nachmanides) Commentary on the Torah, Trans. by Dr. Charles B. Chavel, (New York: Shilo Publishing House, 1971), p.33 note.

The thing is that a day of the One Being, even in Christian theology is 1000 years long. Thus, the paper you cite is hopelessly selective in his use of ancient literature. But then, why should that not be the case. YECs are selective in all they do.

Here, Ramban, a 12th century rabbi notes that not only Scripture doesn't teach the correct order of creation (because of the Hebrew words used) it also teaches that the earth was made of pre-existing matter.

The difficulty which Rabbi Shlomo [Rashi] had which led him to the above interpretation is, as he said: For if Scripture intended to teach the order in which the acts of creation took place, it should have written barishona [instead of Bereshith], since wherever the word reshith occurs in Scripture it is in the construct state. Ramban (Nachmanides) Commentary on the Torah, Trans. by Dr. Charles B. Chavel, (New York: Shilo Publishing House, 1971), p.

Now listen to the correct and clear explanation of the verse in its simplicity. The Holy One, blessed be He, created all things from absolute non-existence. Now we have no expression in the sacred language for bringing forth something from nothing other than the word bara (created). Everything that exists under the sun or above was not made from non-existence at the outset. Instead He brought forth from total and absolute nothing a very thin substance devoid of corporeality but having a power of potency, fit to assume form and to proceed from potentiality into reality. This was the primary matter created by G-d; it is called by the Greeks hyly (matter). After the hyly He did not create anything, but He formed and made --things with it, and from this hyly He brought everything into existence. and clothed the forms and put them into a finished condition.

Know that the heavens and all that is in them consist of one substance, and the earth and everything that is in it consist of one substance. The Holy One, blessed be He, created these two substances from nothing; 35 they al9ne were created, and everything else was constructed from them. Ramban (Nachmanides) Commentary on the Torah, Trans. by Dr. Charles B. Chavel, (New York: Shilo Publishing House, 1971), p.23

It seems to me that you are as selective in your quotations of the church fathers as you are in the data you will allow into the explanation for YEC.

and i defend that the science of today is not the "be all and end all, see it change as you age, and be 100% sure that the science you know in the present time will not be the same inbetween the time you die and the day your grandchildren die."

I bet that Newtonian physics will be the very same when I die? I bet that E =mc^2 will be the very same. I bet that V=IR will be the same. If you don't know what these laws are, then you are really unable to understand anything.

do you go out everyday looking into the world and try and find facts that fit into your Christianity? if not, then is Christianity one of your hobbies?

No, I go out looking for the truth.

no one actually goes out to their work and say: "today i'm netural, i'll do some work and see if it is evolution or creation evidence and fit it accordingly" - every single person in this world is biased, thus the whole debate on the interpretation of the evidence at hand - but as i said, i'm not arguing with you, since the worldview i hold is "illogical"

It is illogical because you must believe two contradictory things to be true at the same time. You say the science can be interpreted as the result of a global flood but then when it doesn't support you you say it was done miraculously.

Fineous_Reese · May 1, 2005

E=mc^2 as long as God says E=mc^2 and not a moment longer.

Smidlee · May 1, 2005

Fineous_Reese said:
E=mc^2 as long as God says E=mc^2 and not a moment longer.

I didn't know God said E=mc^2. Are we sure the universe in builted upon mathematics instead of simply His Word? I wonder if the universe is built upon language more than mathematics. Maybe the law of gravity is just that, a spoken law and nothing more. Don't get me wrong , I love mathematics yet it's odd the greatest things in my life can't be explained by mathematics. Also exactly what is the E stuff anyways?

Also isn't it something the very man who spend so much time coming up with E=mc^2 had no time for his wife and children. What a sad testamony.

mythbuster · May 1, 2005

Jumping into this thread.
Eating Jesus may seem like a hard word but He Himself explained what He ment when He said:

63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.

AS far as a stumbling block it was only stumbling for those who had been given to Him.

And He said, For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been given to him from the Father.

Biliskner · May 3, 2005

grmorton said:
Talk about an ungratious student. You really think you learned everything with your own intelligence? And you are the guy who said in another thread that you couldn't understand the Noah's ark faq on T. O. It is post 217 here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t1484169-theistic-evolution-is-unbiblical.html&page=22

If that is true, I don't think you capable of learning on your own.

Of the different plants found in coals of different ages,

This is a nice way of saying you don't care about the observational data.

hmmm.. did i not say "critical thinking"

whatever mate, whatever.

grmorton said:
I would also ask why the author doesn't take into account what the pre-scientific Jews thought of the Genesis account. Even Jewish Rabbi's noted that the phraseology of 'one day' instead of 'the first day' marks Day one as being something special and different.

It seems to me that you are as selective in your quotations of the church fathers as you are in the data you will allow into the explanation for YEC.

http://www.grisda.org/origins/21005.htm

the site is 22 pages printed. selective? well, in a seemingly infinite vast of knowledge here on earth, i guess selective is only a conservative estimate.

grmorton said:
I bet that Newtonian physics will be the very same when I die? I bet that E =mc^2 will be the very same. I bet that V=IR will be the same. If you don't know what these laws are, then you are really unable to understand anything.

wow, you deffered to the physics school. yes i think "the age of the earth/universe will change", like it has so many times, first the universe is 6BYO, then it's 11BYO, then it's 2BYO. whatever.

physics is not the same science as geology.
but i'm guessing you'll disagree.

grmorton said:
No, I go out looking for the truth.

because you don't find it in the Bible?

grmorton said:
It is illogical because you must believe two contradictory things to be true at the same time. You say the science can be interpreted as the result of a global flood but then when it doesn't support you you say it was done miraculously.

yeh, i guess i read Job too much:

Job 40:1 The LORD said to Job:
Job 40:2 Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD:
Job 40:4 I am unworthy how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.
Job 40:5 I spoke once, but I have no answer twice, but I will say no more.
Job 40:6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
Job 40:7 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
Job 40:8 Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Job 40:9 Do you have an arm like Gods, and can your voice thunder like his?
Job 40:10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendour, and clothe yourself in honour and majesty.
Job 40:11 Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low,
Job 40:12 look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand.
Job 40:13 Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave.
Job 40:14 Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you.
Job 40:15 Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.
Job 40:16 What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly!
Job 40:17 His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
Job 40:18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron.
Job 40:19 He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
Job 40:20 The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby.
Job 40:21 Under the lotus plant he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
Job 40:22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him.
Job 40:23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
Job 40:24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or
trap him and pierce his nose?

Miracles? Lock and Load.

Biliskner · May 3, 2005

Fineous_Reese said:
E=mc^2 as long as God says E=mc^2 and not a moment longer.

Ac. 8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptised him. Ac. 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Ac. 8:40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and travelled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

hate to see the F=MA applied.

Fineous_Reese · May 3, 2005

Biliskner said:
Ac. 8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptised him. Ac. 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing. Ac. 8:40 Philip, however, appeared at Azotus and travelled about, preaching the gospel in all the towns until he reached Caesarea.

hate to see the F=MA applied.

lol! aye, the Maker of the rules can adjust them as He pleases. (of course some folks look at this passage in a much more mundane way which is their choice, takes more explanation, but that's their choice too)

Biliskner · May 3, 2005

Fineous_Reese said:
lol! aye, the Maker of the rules can adjust them as He pleases. (of course some folks look at this passage in a much more mundane way which is their choice, takes more explanation, but that's their choice too)

Yeh. And I've refuted grmoton's Scripture "analysis" once from his website

and it is their choice, thus this thread is apt (more than apt, it's superb).

gg Noah. spent 1/3 of his life building a boat, then God just sends a spill of water. what a waste of time, should've just built a motorbike and ridden off to yonda somewhere.

SBG · May 3, 2005

grmorton said:
Most of the opposition came from the theological conservatives of his day--the pharisees, who didn't like being told they were wrong.

Yes, I agree, but more than half of the disciples left Jesus as well, and they were not Pharisees or theologians. They were normal people who believed Jesus was the Christ. And upon hearing this message, they left Him.

grmorton said:
The catch 22 is that in order to be from God he must speak the truth. If someone comes up to you, claims to be a prophet and says that the sea is a beautiful pink with purple polka-dots, you would not believe he was from God. That is what you are trying to do with your evolution quiestion. And I don't beleive that you don't care about what science says. YOu would love it if science backed up your view.

First off, how do you know what you see is the truth? You yourself said you can be wrong.

Lets keep in mind that a prophet wouldnt talk about pink with purple polka-dots, a prophet speaks the word of God. And if a prophet did come and tell you the earth was created in six days, there was a global flood, I assume you wouldnt believe because you *need* a scientific explanation of the data first, correct? It would be too much to ask for you to believe by faith alone, even if your eyes see otherwise, correct?

I honestly dont care what science says. But, I would use it to back up a position if needed. But my position does not rely on science; it relies on the Word of God.

I dont need science to back up my view, nor do I think science will ever be capable of completely backing my view. When one has the Word of God, and has complete faith that what God says is true in every sense, there is no need to look further.

grmorton said:
Since I have a different interpretation of what the Bible says about evolution (something you haven't commented on) I don't see how it would be easy for you to convince me by showing me your interpretation. Believe me, I have run down all the arguments in this area. However if you could convince me with what I see, by explaining the geologic data, I would believe and become a YEC again. But no one ever takes me up on that offer.

I thought I addressed your thoughts about the Bible talking about Evolution, did I not? Wasnt it Genesis 1:20 and 1:24?

How about I showed you what the Hebrew language says? Would you believe me? Or do you need someone to explain what you see, the geologic data, in order for you to believe?

grmorton said:
No, you are in the position of telling me what you THINK God said. That is a different thing. In order to be telling me what God said, you have to place yourself in the position of the infallible interpretor. ARe you absolutely infallible in your interpretation of the Bible--kind of like the ex cathedra statements of the Pope?

But, if I just present verses, without interpretation, shall you still tell me that I telling you what I think God says? If that is the case, then no one can really have any faith in what they read to be true.

I dont have to place myself as an infallible interpreter. I can just present verses, but again, will you just say this is my interpretation if no interpretation is given?

Mind you, I never claimed to have complete understanding, nor did I say I was infallible. How can I be? I am the worst sinner here.

grmorton said:
What you care about is what you think God is saying. There is a clear differentiation between what God says and what you say he says. Or are you God's trusted prophet?

What I care about is being in correct doctrine. If I say the Bible saying evolution, I would be the biggest evolutionist you have ever seen.

Can you show me where I differ from what the Bible teaches?

I dont claim to be anything. And if I was, you wouldnt listen to me anyways. You have more trust in what you see than in what you believe.

grmorton said:
I find it odd that a guy who is implying that he is an infallible interpretor of the Bible can talk about pride in others. And before you deny this, consider answering the question: Have you ever decided that an interpretation of the Bible which you held to was wrong and then changed it?

If you answer 'no' then you have said you are infallible. If you say you have, then you can't claim to only be passing along God's message as you claim. YOU are passing along YOUR UNDERSTANDING of God's message.

Did I say I was infallible? If not, why do you say I am implying this? Pride is something I know very well. I too stumble with my own pride. I never claimed to be without my own sins. But if you wish to turn this into a discussion about my sins, then pave the way.

I have been wrong about interpretations, but this mostly happened within the first few months of being a Christian. Take a pre-tribulation rapture for one, it just doesnt seem Biblical to me.

Before I was a Christian, I would have upheld evolution just as much as any TE here. Even for a few months after being a Christian, I upheld evolution. Upon my studies of Gods Word and His hand leading me, I became convinced that God created in six days and evolution is not the answer. Science never changed my perspective, God did.

You call it passing on my understanding of Gods Word, and it is. Paul passed on his understanding of Jesus Christ. It is not the understanding that makes something wrong. But this understanding must be based on Truth. The Truth as I know it, comes from God, and it can be found in Gods Word.

Science is speculative and can never be claimed as truth, but I have a God who is complete Truth and He has given me His Word that tells me of Truth, in all sense of the word. I believe, even though it is extremely unpopular to do so. And yet even more so, because I dont look for science to back up my beliefs, I rely solely on the Word of God and His leading.

Tell me, grmorton, do you believe the end is near?

grmorton said:
True, but do you know how to tell the difference between a logical argument which is true and one which is false? OBSERVATION. If you deduce that a horse has 84 teeth, and I say another number, we can go look in the horses mouth. That is science. It settles the difference between 2 perfectly logical arguments which lead to different observational results.

And even this observation can be flawed. Can you go back 4000 years and see what it looked like? I am aware you think you can be digging, but do you honestly know what you see, is for a fact, correct? Can you state for a fact, that things happened exactly as you see them?

Can you state for a fact that when God allowed this supernatural event, that things were not the same as they are now, as they were then? Can you state for a fact that God didnt clean things up a bit after He destroyed all life? This is God, and God does allow our faith to be tested. Read Job, he was a righteous man. In his time, none were more righteous. Satan sifted him like wheat; God allowed this so Jobs faith can be tested. Job didnt understand why these things happened to him, he did nothing against God. But God wanted Jobs faith to increase. And it did.

Today, we look out and see many things that dont make sense with Gods Word. I believe God is allowing our faith to be tested. Shall we believe what He says, or shall we believe what scientists tell us, which is based off their world views?

I believe Satan would do anything to creep in and get a Christian to say Did God really say This is what Satan will do in the last days, cause a great falling away. I believe this great falling away will be attributed to science, logic and reason. For these are the tools used to say there is no God. And within the Church, it will become complacent, as it is today, because of its belief that Jesus wont be coming any time soon. And this is when Satan will come and sweep people away.

You see, what TEs dont get is that it is not YEC that is causing this falling away; it is the people themselves that cause it, for themselves. Logic, reason, and science are the tools to get man to trust himself more than God. This falling away must happen for prophecy to be fulfilled, before Christs coming. For it is written. And here we are seeing it.

grmorton said:
My entire career has been focused on God and how his word can be consistent with observational science. That surely isn't a waste of time.

I didnt say your work was a waste of time. I was just explaining my feelings. I feel every aspect of our lives, as Christians, ought to be spent teaching Gods Word. But that is just me. You dont have to agree.

grmorton said:
Never have I said I know everything. But that isn't the same as saying I know nothing. I have a 4400 book science library and I have thousands of articles in files here. I have worked hard to know what I do know. But there is still so much to learn. But, you offer no learning, just fideism.

I wasnt stating you did, but rather saying you dont. I am very much aware that you are intelligent. I never thought otherwise. There is no need to tell me how many books you have or what you have read to make me believe you are intelligent. I already do.

Well, I apologize that I dont have some scientific knowledge to teach you, but rather can teach you about believe on faith alone. Personally, when all is said and done, God isnt going to judge me according to what job I held, but rather by the faith I had. So to me, faith is much more important than scientific facts.

grmorton said:
You weren't talking about that.

Actually I was. You dont have to believe me, but I am telling you the truth.

grmorton said:
It isn't that God is illogical. It is what people say he did which should have observational consequences, but no one can find those consequences.

My experience has been that many atheist want God to appear to them in human form and tell them He is God. And these atheists will freely admit if such a thing happened they wouldnt believe Him anyways.

Simply put, their hearts are hardened.

grmorton said:
It actually doesn't speak of a global flood. The 'eretz' was flooded. If you require that 'eretz' (which is most often translated 'land') has to mean planet earth, then Abraham disobeyed God. God told him to leave his 'eretz' and go to an 'eretz' God would show him. And if Abe was disobedient then just about everything we believe in the OT is false.

And the Bible speaks of 6-days only if the word yom means a 24 hour period. The word may not at all refer to a 24 hour period.

Is your argument solely based on the fact of how often a word is used to mean X? Are you trying to say because erets has many different meanings that it could not mean earth, as is one of its meanings?

Well, if that is your argument, why stop at land? Why not say it means sheol, since that is also one of erets meanings? We could also say it means wilderness. We could translate Genesis 1:1 to say First, choose angels in the sky (and the) wilderness! For these are the meanings that each of the words can have.

I do believe you are intelligent, but your argument above is not very intelligent. To say that if one passage uses erets to mean earth, that some other passage MUST use it the same, is completely illogical. It also shows that you know the Hebrew word, but do not understand the Hebrew context.

SBG · May 3, 2005

grmorton said:
No it isn't.

So then you feel it is fair if someone lumps you in with other atheists, concerning your beliefs?

grmorton said:
By saying that the Bible rules out evolution you deny these verses.

No I dont. I deny that the waters created, and believe God created, as each of the following verses say. Look at Genesis 1:21 and 1:25, each say God created. Because God used an element such as dust to create man, doesnt automatically mean evolution. Evolution is changes over time, and it is often taught the time is billions of years. This was instant creation, after God called into being.

grmorton said:
Yes, in Hebrew the word Let is not explicit. It is in the tense of the verb. The verses actually say "God said: "Earth bring forth..." "Waters bring forth..."

The verses which follow are not wrong. God created life by creating a system which would bring about life. That doesn't diminish God. God doesn't have to be a magician to be miraculous or powerful. Kinda like Pontius Pilate in Jesus Christ superstar, you want God to walk across your swimming pool. God doesn't have to act like a magician. He can act like a planner who plans a system (the universe) which brings forth life. The sad thing is that you YECs miss the best evidence there is for design by playing the game you do.

The verse 1:20 actually say this:

And said God, Let multiply the waters (having) a life living. And birds let fly around over the earth, on the the surface of the space of

Genesis 1:21 follows up and says:

And heavens. God created the sea monsters great and all (having a) life living that crawls (with) which swarmed the waters after their species, and every bird (with) wing | after its species. And saw God that good (it was)

These are the literal translations of Hebrew.

I am human, and I may miss things that God has done. But I do look at nature and can see Gods hand. Not evolution, but God.

grmorton said:
Only if YOM must always refer to a 24-hour period.

Again, you can tell the difference of how yowm is used by the Hebrew context. I can show you in Genesis chapter two where yowm is used to mean a period of time, longer than 24 hours. Unfortunately, TEs miss this as well.

Genesis 2:17

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

The bolded phrase above is a phrase in Hebrew, which is of course YOWM, which TEs say must be a 24 hour day. This is incorrect, according to Hebrew linguistics. This is a period of time greater than 24 hours because of how it is used on context.

grmorton said:
I am a TE.

I know, but I just dont see you that way. My apologies.

grmorton said:
If you understood you would cease claiming things about nature and science that can't be true. My chip is entirely about christians wrapping falsehood in God's name and then going out making Christianity look ignorant, willfully deceitful and dishonest. We have to cease denying what we can see with our eyes. If our apologetics requires that, then our apologetic is wrong.

I havent said nature says this or that. I have said what Gods Word says. We apparently have the same problem. I too do not like how Christians are wrapping up Gods Word to say something it is not. Evolutionists are part of this.

I am becoming fully aware that you cannot deny what you see, even if it means denying what you believe.

grmorton said:
I don't need your compassion. I am doing to the best of my ability what God called me to do. Who cares whether you or anyone else believes what I say or trusts me. Remember, broad is the path that leads to destruction. Within Christianity in the US, YEC is the broad path.

I wasnt trying to be disrespectful, by offering you my compassion. Whether you need it or not, you have it.

I must say, I am glad you can be honest with how you feel about me and others who hold the same belief as I. That broad path is leading to destruction of our souls. So by your inference, I take it you think I and the others of the same mind, are unsaved. I conclude this because those on the broad path, as the Bible puts it, are unsaved.

It will come as no surprise to you that I disagree with you on this. It is the world who holds your beliefs, a world who hates God. And a great falling away is currently happening within the Church, and it seems so many are not even aware of this. And those who keep true to Gods Word, are, as you say, walking the broad path.

Well it is interesting view, but I find it wrong.

grmorton said:
What you ask me to do is to return to when I was a double-minded individual, believing one thing after work but another during work. I can't live a lie and I won't return to those days. Truth and Knowledge are ONE, not many. The only reason you don't feel the tension is because of your ignorance of the scientific data (by your own admission).

I dont ask you to return to being double-minded. I believe you have a unique opportunity to share Jesus Christ with those whom you work with; a Jesus Christ that they may not have heard. If that is double-minded to you, than why are you a Christian?

Truth and Knowledge are found only in ONE place, Jesus Christ. Why look for it in science when He is there knocking at the door?

I dont mind being ignorant of scientific data that suggests Gods Word is wrong. I hold to the greater Authority, God, not man. So if man deems me ignorant, as you have, so be it. I serve God.

grmorton said:
Don't ask me to once again become a liar for Jesus.

I never asked you to be a liar. I asked you to spread the Word of Jesus Christ.

grmorton said:
You are quite welcome. I studied mandarin for 3 years starting 11 years ago. I am learning a whole lot over the past 3 weeks. I can carry on most business transactions after work.

That is very cool! I very much enjoy learning new languages.

ChiefOfBackEnd · May 3, 2005

SBG said:
I honestly dont care what science says. But, I would use it to back up a position if needed. But my position does not rely on science; it relies on the Word of God.

I dont need science to back up my view, nor do I think science will ever be capable of completely backing my view. When one has the Word of God, and has complete faith that what God says is true in every sense, there is no need to look further.

You think "science" is another ideology, don't you. Science doesn't say anything. It is what it is.

If you don't care what science "says", then... you clearly don't care about the world God has created.

Thank God there are people in the world who have not been so stupid and arrogant as to ignore God and His nature. Otherwise, we'd still be living in tents and riding camels.

You embarrass God as a failure of intellect.

Remus · May 3, 2005

ChiefOfBackEnd said:
You think "science" is another ideology, don't you. Science doesn't say anything. It is what it is.

If you don't care what science "says", then... you clearly don't care about the world God has created.

Thank God there are people in the world who have not been so stupid and arrogant as to ignore God and His nature. Otherwise, we'd still be living in tents and riding camels.

You embarrass God as a failure of intellect.

Why don't you tell us how you really feel?

grmorton · May 3, 2005

Biliskner said:
hmmm.. did i not say "critical thinking"

whatever mate, whatever.

http://www.grisda.org/origins/21005.htm

the site is 22 pages printed. selective? well, in a seemingly infinite vast of knowledge here on earth, i guess selective is only a conservative estimate.

wow, you deffered to the physics school. yes i think "the age of the earth/universe will change", like it has so many times, first the universe is 6BYO, then it's 11BYO, then it's 2BYO. whatever.

physics is not the same science as geology.
but i'm guessing you'll disagree.

because you don't find it in the Bible?

yeh, i guess i read Job too much:

Job 40:1 The LORD said to Job:
Job 40:2 Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!
Job 40:3 Then Job answered the LORD:
Job 40:4 I am unworthy how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth.
Job 40:5 I spoke once, but I have no answer twice, but I will say no more.
Job 40:6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
Job 40:7 Brace yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer me.
Job 40:8 Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
Job 40:9 Do you have an arm like Gods, and can your voice thunder like his?
Job 40:10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendour, and clothe yourself in honour and majesty.
Job 40:11 Unleash the fury of your wrath, look at every proud man and bring him low,
Job 40:12 look at every proud man and humble him, crush the wicked where they stand.
Job 40:13 Bury them all in the dust together; shroud their faces in the grave.
Job 40:14 Then I myself will admit to you that your own right hand can save you.
Job 40:15 Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.
Job 40:16 What strength he has in his loins, what power in the muscles of his belly!
Job 40:17 His tail sways like a cedar; the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
Job 40:18 His bones are tubes of bronze, his limbs like rods of iron.
Job 40:19 He ranks first among the works of God, yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
Job 40:20 The hills bring him their produce, and all the wild animals play nearby.
Job 40:21 Under the lotus plant he lies, hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
Job 40:22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow; the poplars by the stream surround him.
Job 40:23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed; he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
Job 40:24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes, or
trap him and pierce his nose?

Miracles? Lock and Load.

It is sad how irrelevant and unresponsive your posts are. Why must Christianity affect people like this?

SBG · May 3, 2005

ChiefOfBackEnd said:
You think "science" is another ideology, don't you. Science doesn't say anything. It is what it is.

Scientists says much of what is science, and the Bible is not considered truth when it describes a six day creation or global flood. Science has become a social need for many people. We can look at secular humanists for one, and marxism as another. Both require evolution as a fact and build upon it as a fact that is God-exempt.

ChiefOfBackEnd said:
If you don't care what science "says", then... you clearly don't care about the world God has created.

That is correct, I don't care what science has to say, for it does not bring glory to God. It doesn't even discuss God as possibility. And people such as yourself say this ok, becaues science cannot investigate God. But mankind can honor God, and science does no such thing.

Your statement of saying I don't care about the world God created is really based on nothing. Do you think science is at the center of all things? I don't.

I can walk out into the wilderness on a hike and take note at what God created. I don't look at the trees, plants, sky, clouds, birds, and go wow, evolution. Instead, I see it and say, Thank you God.

If you want to make fallacious statements about me, it is your choice.

ChiefOfBackEnd said:
Thank God there are people in the world who have not been so stupid and arrogant as to ignore God and His nature. Otherwise, we'd still be living in tents and riding camels.

You embarrass God as a failure of intellect.

This is an excellent example of how TEs treat YECs. We are nothing but stupid and intellectually challenged individuals, in the eyes of TEs. This is all because I said, I put my faith in God and what He has revealed in His Written Word as Truth and I need to look no farther to know God's Word is Truthful.

For my faith, it is claimed by this person that I am an embarrassment to God as a failure of intellect. So I ask, will God judge me on judgment day according to my intellect or according to my faith?

grmorton · May 4, 2005

SBG said:
That is correct, I don't care what science has to say, for it does not bring glory to God. It doesn't even discuss God as possibility. And people such as yourself say this ok, becaues science cannot investigate God. But mankind can honor God, and science does no such thing.

Your statement of saying I don't care about the world God created is really based on nothing. Do you think science is at the center of all things? I don't.

Don't the two bolded statements seem just a wee bit contradictory and in, well, perhaps some wee bit of conflict?

This is an excellent example of how TEs treat YECs. We are nothing but stupid and intellectually challenged individuals, in the eyes of TEs. This is all because I said, I put my faith in God and what He has revealed in His Written Word as Truth and I need to look no farther to know God's Word is Truthful.

Well, how would you feel about the Hindu who believes that the earth really is sitting on the back of an elephant, which is standing upon a turtle which is swimming in a sea of clarified butter? If you showed him pictures of the earth from the moon showing no elephant, no turtle and no clarified butter and he said, " I don't care what science has to say, for it does not bring glory to God. I put my faith in God and what He has revealed in His Written Word as Truth and I need to look no farther to know God's Word is Truthful. "

would you not think the man a wee bit stupid and a wee bit intellectually challenged? Come on, answer truthfully.

For my faith, it is claimed by this person that I am an embarrassment to God as a failure of intellect. So I ask, will God judge me on judgment day according to my intellect or according to my faith?

No, it is not because of your faith that the charge is being made. It is because you don't care what your eyes can see(what science says) and you are going to beleive that there is a turtle, an elephant and a sea of clarified butter regardless of what picture of the earth from the moon one shows you (don't get too literal here, you are doing the same thing as the Hindu fundamentalist even though the details are different). Don't get that martyrdom complex when it is not suffering for Jesus that is causing your problem. This is a case of you behaving in an illogical fashion--e.g. not caring what you can see with your eyes.

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