The stumbling block for atheists.

Chriliman · Apr 23, 2017

KTS said:
You are missing my point.

In order for something to be a choice, there must be several possible options. Once the "choice" is known, then there is only ONE option. If there is only one option, it no longer meets the criteria for being a choice.

Let's say you're right, we have no choice since God already knows our choices. If we actually have no choice then what exactly does God have knowledge of? The implications of your thought process are contradictory.

It's clear that if we have no choice then God can have no knowledge of our choices, if we have choice then God can have knowledge of all our choices.

bhsmte · Apr 23, 2017

Chriliman said:
Let's say you're right, we have no choice since God already knows our choices. If we actually have no choice then what exactly does God have knowledge of? The implications of your thought process are contradictory.

It's clear that if we have no choice then God can have no knowledge of our choices, if we have choice then God can have knowledge of all our choices.

If one has no choice, God would have knowledge of what was predestined, for each person. The person may have the illusion of choice, but if another entity knows what will happen, something has to impose that choice on the person.

Chriliman · Apr 23, 2017

bhsmte said:
If one has no choice, God would have knowledge of what was predestined, for each person. The person may have the illusion of choice, but if another entity knows what will happen, something has to impose that choice on the person.

Why can't that 'something' be the person's free will?

bhsmte · Apr 23, 2017

Chriliman said:
Why can't that 'something' be the person's free will?

Complete free will, means a person is capable of an action no one is capable of knowing. If someone or something, knows exactly how a person will act, 100% of the time, how does that happen - magic?

Kylie · Apr 23, 2017

Chriliman said:
Let's say you're right, we have no choice since God already knows our choices. If we actually have no choice then what exactly does God have knowledge of? The implications of your thought process are contradictory.

It's clear that if we have no choice then God can have no knowledge of our choices, if we have choice then God can have knowledge of all our choices.

When I watch a movie, I know what the characters are going to do. I KNOW Frodo is going to carry the Ring to Mordor. Does he have a choice to go back to his hobbit-hole? Of course not. No matter how many times I watch, he'll always do the same thing. Frodo has no choice. Me knowing what Frodo is going to do is like God knowing what I will do. I know what Frodo will do 100% for sure, just like God knows what I will do. But the only way that can happen is for there to be no choice. Frodo has no choice, and if God knows what I will do, then I have no choice either.

You ask what God has knowledge of, as he can't have knowledge of our choices if we have no choice. The obvious answer to this is that he has knowledge of our actions.

Chriliman · Apr 23, 2017

bhsmte said:
Complete free will, means a person is capable of an action no one is capable of knowing. If someone or something, knows exactly how a person will act, 100% of the time, how does that happen - magic?

I guess we fundamentally disagree on what free will is. I see no need to say no one can know your choice in order for you to have the ability to freely make that choice.

Anyhow, I'm starting to sound like a broken record.

Chriliman · Apr 23, 2017

KTS said:
When I watch a movie, I know what the characters are going to do. I KNOW Frodo is going to carry the Ring to Mordor. Does he have a choice to go back to his hobbit-hole? Of course not. No matter how many times I watch, he'll always do the same thing. Frodo has no choice. Me knowing what Frodo is going to do is like God knowing what I will do. I know what Frodo will do 100% for sure, just like God knows what I will do. But the only way that can happen is for there to be no choice. Frodo has no choice, and if God knows what I will do, then I have no choice either.

This would make sense if you were a scripted character in a movie, but we all know you're a living breathing human being who can make real choices that have real consequences, irregardless of who knows about them.

KTS said:
You ask what God has knowledge of, as he can't have knowledge of our choices if we have no choice. The obvious answer to this is that he has knowledge of our actions.

Sure, but if we don't choose our actions then he can't hold us responsible for them. Btw, if we can't choose our actions then God can't either since we're made in His image and all the sudden we're making 0 sense.

Anyhow, thanks for your time.

Kylie · Apr 23, 2017

Chriliman said:
This would make sense if you were a scripted character in a movie, but we all know you're a living breathing human being who can make real choices that have real consequences, irregardless of who knows about them.

If God knows what I'm going to do tomorrow, then how am I any different from a character performing a script that God has already read?

Sure, but if we don't choose our actions then he can't hold us responsible for them.

But if we CAN choose our actions, then God could never be sure about what we're going to do in the future.

So we've got two options:

God knows what we are going to do and we have no choice but to do it.
We have free will and God doesn't know what we're going to do.

Which do you prefer? Option 1 or Option 2?

Btw, if we can't choose our actions then God can't either since we're made in His image and all the sudden we're making 0 sense.

That doesn't follow. According to Christianity, God can do lots of things that we can't do, despite us being made in his image. So there's nothing that says that if we can't choose our actions that God can't choose his either.

Anyhow, thanks for your time.

No worries.

Radrook · Apr 24, 2017

How is pre knowledge pre-determination? I know what a person will do-how does that make me responsible for his decision to do it or how have I predestined him?

Non sequitur · Apr 24, 2017

Radrook said:
How is pre knowledge pre-determination? I know what a person will do-how does that make me responsible for his decision to do it or how have I predestined him?

But you aren't the director of the script.

Kylie · Apr 25, 2017

Radrook said:
How is pre knowledge pre-determination? I know what a person will do-how does that make me responsible for his decision to do it or how have I predestined him?

I never said that pre-knowledge and predetermination are the same thing, and I never said that God is forcing us to do what he knows what we are going to do. All I am saying is that SOMETHING is forcing us, if the future is set in stone - which it must be if God knows. I never said it must follow that God is the one doing the forcing.

Chriliman · Apr 25, 2017

Kylie said:
I never said that pre-knowledge and predetermination are the same thing, and I never said that God is forcing us to do what he knows what we are going to do. All I am saying is that SOMETHING is forcing us, if the future is set in stone - which it must be if God knows. I never said it must follow that God is the one doing the forcing.

You're right and that 'something' is our own will.

Radrook · Apr 25, 2017

Kylie said:
I never said that pre-knowledge and predetermination are the same thing, and I never said that God is forcing us to do what he knows what we are going to do. All I am saying is that SOMETHING is forcing us, if the future is set in stone - which it must be if God knows. I never said it must follow that God is the one doing the forcing.

But you are making the future set in stone contingent on God knowing. Seems you are contradicting yourself a bit there.

Radrook · Apr 25, 2017

Non sequitur said:
But you aren't the director of the script.

That necessitates that God preordain evil to occur.

Non sequitur · Apr 25, 2017

Radrook said:
That necessitates that God preordain evil to occur.

If I had a pedophile alone in a confined area, and then put a child in that area, when something happens to the child:

Did the pedophile have a choice?
Who is most accountable?

Chriliman · Apr 25, 2017

Non sequitur said:
If I had a pedophile alone in a confined area, and then put a child in that area, when something happens to the child:

Did the pedophile have a choice?
Who is most accountable?

This would bring into question your motives for doing such a thing - are you anticipating a good outcome? If not, why do it?

Everything God does is in anticipation of a good outcome that He knows will come to fulfillment. Your analogy assumes God's motives are not good or are not fully thought out, why would you assume such a thing?

Non sequitur · Apr 25, 2017

Chriliman said:
This would bring into question your motives for doing such a thing - are you anticipating a good outcome? If not, why do it?

Everything God does is in anticipation of a good outcome that He knows will come to fulfillment. Your analogy assumes God's motives are not good or are not fully thought out, why would you assume such a thing?

My motives are that the pedophile will learn that his behavior is bad/wrong/needs help, he is no longer attracted to children, and they become friends.

Even though I set the stage, and know what will happen, I anticipate a good outcome!

Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Now that we got that squared away, if something happens to the child:

Did the pedophile have a choice, in what actions he took?
Who is most accountable?

Chriliman · Apr 25, 2017

Non sequitur said:
My motives are that the pedophile will learn that his behavior is bad/wrong/needs help, he is no longer attracted to children, and they become friends.

Even though I set the stage, and know what will happen, I anticipate a good outcome!

Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Now that we got that squared away, if something happens to the child:

Did the pedophile have a choice, in what actions he took?
Who is most accountable?

Since you know the outcome will be good, the pedophile must've made good choices.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it doesn't make sense to say you know what will happen and anticipate a good outcome and then go on to insinuate something bad actually happened.

Does something bad happen to the child? If so, then you can't say you knew the outcome would be good. It's important to know what actually happens, so we can verify the knowledge you claimed to have before hand.

Non sequitur · Apr 25, 2017

Chriliman said:
Since you know the outcome will be good, the pedophile must've made good choices.

Maybe I'm missing something here, but it doesn't make sense to say you know what will happen and anticipate a good outcome and then go on to insinuate something bad actually happened.

Does something bad happen to the child? If so, then you can't say you knew the outcome would be good. It's important to know what actually happens, so we can verify the knowledge you claimed to have before hand.

It hasn't happened, yet.

When it does:
Did the pedophile have a choice, in what actions he took?
Who is most accountable for what happened?

Chriliman · Apr 25, 2017

Non sequitur said:
It hasn't happened, yet.

When it does:
Did the pedophile have a choice, in what actions he took?

Yes.

Non sequitur said:
Who is most accountable for what happened?

Since you knew the outcome would be good, you'd be at least as accountable as him for the good outcome. You get credit for putting him in the situation and he gets credit for making good choices.

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