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Again, not one postitive plural marriage scripture from the OT. Hm, not interested in the full story are you?1. Lamech (a descendant of Cain) had two wives (Genesis 4:19).
2. Abraham had more than one wife (Genesis 16:3-4, 25:6 (some were called concubines)).
3. Nahor (Abraham’s brother) had both a wife and a concubine (Genesis 11:29, 22:20-24).
4. Jacob was tricked into polygamy (Genesis 29:20-30) and later received two additional wives bringing the grand total of four wives (Genesis 30:4, 9).
5. Esau took a third wife to please his father Isaac (Genesis 28:6-9).
6. Ashur had two wives (1 Chronicles 4:5).
7. Obadiah, Joel, Isshiah, and those with them had multiple wives (1 Chronicles 7:3-4).
8. Shaharaim had at least four wives, two of whom he “sent away” (1 Chronicles 8:8-11).
9. Caleb had two wives (1 Chronicles 2:18) and two concubines (1 Chronicles 2:46, 48).
10. Gideon had many wives (Judges 8:30).
11. Elkanah is recorded as having two wives, one of whom was the godly woman Hannah (1 Samuel 1:1-2, 8-2:10).
12. David had at least 8 wives and 10 concubines (1 Chronicles 1:1-9; 2 Samuel 6:23, 20:3).
13. Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines (1 Kings 11:1-6).
14. Rehoboam had eighteen wives and sixty concubines (2 Chronicles 11:21) and sought many wives for his sons (1 Chronicles 11:23).
15. Abijah had fourteen wives (2 Chronicles 13:21).
16. Ahab had more than one wife (1 Kings 20:7).
17. Jehoram had multiple wives (2 Chronicles 21:17).
18. Jehoiada the priest gave king Joash two wives (2 Chronicles 24:1-3).
19. Jehoiachin had more than one wife (2 Kings 24:15).
Above is the list, I know from experience that plural marriage always goes badly. Each of those that give details proves that plural marriage is a bad idea and it is never endorsed by God in the Bible.
The silence of God does not connote approval!!!!
Polygamy, whenever prominently dealt with in Scripture (i.e., mentioned more than just noted in passing), always spelled trouble with a capital T!
Consider some of the following internecine conflicts and tragedies:
Jacob had four wives whom he clearly loved unequally: Leah (whom he considered unattractive and felt himself “stuck with”), Rachel (his first love), Bilnah (Rachel’s maid), and Zilpah (Leah’s maid). Leah bore him six sons and a daughter: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulan, and Dinah. Rachel was infertile for many years, but finally gave birth to Joseph and later Benjamin. Bilnah bore him Naphtali and Dan, while Zilpah bore him Gad and Asher.
All these sons by different mothers created tension, the greatest of which surrounded Joseph, whose brothers grew jealous and began to hate him, for their father, Jacob, favored Joseph as Rachel’s son. The brothers hatched a plot to kill Joseph, but due to a combination of their desire for monetary gain and the intervention of Reuben, he was instead sold into slavery. At the root of this sad story of this bitter conflict was a polygamous mess. The clear teaching (among others) is this: Don’t do polygamy.
Gideon had many wives and by them many sons. Scripture tells the story of violence and death that resulted from this situation, with the sons all competing for kingship and heritage.
Now Gideon had seventy sons, his direct descendants, for he had many wives. His concubine who lived in Shechem also bore him a son, whom he named Abimelech. At a good old age Gideon, son of Joash, died and was buried in the tomb of his father Joash in Ophrah of the Abiezrites. Abimelech, son of Jerubbaal (i.e., Gideon), went to his mother’s kinsmen in Shechem, and said to them and to the whole clan to which his mother’s family belonged, “Put this question to all the citizens of Shechem: ‘Which is better for you: that seventy men, or all Jerubbaal’s sons, rule over you, or that one man rule over you?’ You must remember that I am your own flesh and bone.” When his mother’s kin repeated these words to them on his behalf, all the citizens of Shechem sympathized with Abimelech, thinking, “He is our kinsman.” They also gave him seventy silver shekels from the temple of Baal of Berith, with which Abimelech hired shiftless men and ruffians as his followers. He then went to his ancestral house in Ophrah, and slew his brothers, the seventy sons of Jerubbaal (Gideon), on one stone. Only the youngest son of Jerubbaal, Jotham, escaped, for he was hidden (Judges 9:1-5).
At the heart of this murderous conflict was polygamy. The sons competed for kingship, power, and inheritance. They had little love for one another because they had different mothers. Abimelech’s loyalty was not to his half-brothers but to his mother and her clan; he did not hesitate to slaughter them to gain power.
Among other things evident in this terrible tale is that polygamy leads to chaos and hatred. The story is cautioning, “Don’t do polygamy.”
King David had at least eight wives (Michal, Abigail, Ahinoam, Eglah, Maacah, Abital, Haggith, and Bathsheba) and ten concubines. Trouble erupts in this “blended” (to put it mildly) family when Absalom (David’s third son, whose mother was Maacah) sought to move to the head of the line of succession. When his older brother Chileab died, only his half-brother Amnon stood in the way. The tension between these royal sons of different mothers grew intense. Amnon raped Absalom’s sister Tamar, and Absalom later had Amnon murdered for it (cf 2 Sam 13).
Absalom fled and over time nourished hatred for his father David, eventually waging a war against him in an attempt to overthrow his power. Absalom is killed in the war, and David can barely forgive himself for his role in his son’s death (2 Sam 18:33). The family intrigue wasn’t over, however.
David’s son Solomon (by Bathsheba, David’s last wife) would eventually become king but only through the machinations of his mother. As David lay dying, his oldest son Adonijah (by Haggith), who was the expected heir (1 Kings 2:15), was proclaimed king in a formal ceremony. Bathsheba conspired with Nathan the Prophet and deceived David into thinking that Adonijah was mounting a rebellion. She also reminded David of a secret promise he had once made to her that Solomon would one day be king. As a result, David intervened and sent word that Solomon would be king. Adonijah fled, returning only after Solomon assured his safety. Despite this he was later killed by Solomon.
What a messy situation! We have sons of different mothers hating one another, wives playing for favor and conspiring behind the scenes, and so forth. Once again, the implicit teaching is this: Don’t do polygamy.
Solomon, it is said, had 700 wives and 300 concubines. Again, nothing but trouble came from this. Scripture says,
King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women. … He had seven hundred wives of royal birth and three hundred concubines, and his wives led him astray. As Solomon grew old, his wives turned his heart after other gods, and his heart was not fully devoted to the Lord his God, as the heart of David his father had been. He followed Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, and Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites. So Solomon did evil in the eyes of the Lord (1 Kings 11:1-6).
The tolerance of pagan religious practices encouraged by these wives, along with other policies, led to great hostility and division in the kingdom. After Solomon’s death, the northern kingdom of Israel seceded from Judah. They were never reunited, and both kingdoms were eventually destroyed by surrounding nations.
Lurking in the mix of this mess is polygamy and this lesson: Don’t do polygamy.
Abraham’s sexual relations with his wife Sarah’s maid, Hagar, while a case of adultery rather than polygamy, also led to serious trouble. Although Hagar became pregnant with Ishmael at Sarah’s behest, Sarah grew jealous and mistreated her, causing her to flee (Gen 16). Hagar eventually returned and gave birth to Ishmael. Later, when Sarah finally bore a child (Isaac), she decided that Ishmael was a threat and had Abraham drive him and Hagar away (Gen 21).
Ishmael went on to become the patriarch of what we largely call the Arab nations; Isaac’s line would be the Jewish people. The rest, as they say, is history.
Once again, polygamy is lurking behind a whole host of problems. Don’t do polygamy.
So, the Bible does teach on polygamy. Through stories, we learn of its problematic nature. We ought not to be overly simplistic and conclude that polygamy was the only problem or that such tragedies never occur in other settings, but it clearly played a strong role.
It would seem that in the Old Testament God tolerates polygamy, as he does divorce, but nowhere does He approve of it.
In Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus signals a return to God’s original plan and excludes divorce.
Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, unless the marriage is unlawful, and marries another woman commits adultery (Matt 19:8-9).
http://blog.adw.org/2019/07/problems-produced-polygamy-patriarchs/
Do you think for 1 minute that Abraham would have taken Hagar if the Lord would have been displeased? The answer is no. Look at Genesis 16:3 and it says that Hagar was Abrahams wife anyway.The texts you referred to are peoples' actions. That does not mean God approved of that.
So, lets look at the results of purl marriage in the Bible shall we.
Genesis 16:4 Abram slept with Hagar, and she became pregnant. When Hagar realized this, she became very proud and began to feel that she was better than Sarai her owner.
Genesis 16:11Then the angel of the Lord said, “Hagar, you are now pregnant, and you will have a son. You will name him Ishmael, because the Lord has heard that you were treated badly.
Hagar was never married to Abraham, and the union cause nothing but discord and strife.
I'm sure if it were well documented, you would have indulged us to show it.
Do you think for 1 minute that Abraham would have taken Hagar if the Lord would have been displeased? The answer is no. Look at Genesis 16:3 and it says that Hagar was Abrahams wife anyway.
Do you think prophets and kings and common men and priests of the Aaronic priesthood would have had plural wives and displeased God? The answer is no. Get the whole story before you start your anti-plural marriage discussion.
You would have JS not only marrying other Mormon men's wives for eternity and then have him sleeping with them when he wanted in this time. That did not happen.
When he married a woman for eternity (you call it spiritually) their Mormon husbands were usually at the sealing and agreed with the marriage after death. Otherwise JS would have been killed by one of these men. In a marriage only for eternity, the woman lived with her husband through this life. The husband, if he stayed faithful, which they usually did, were promised that they too would have a wife or wives throughout eternity too.
There was a situation with one woman that JS married for eternity, but after he died, the woman did not want to live with her husband any more, and so BY took her into his family. Eventually, he did marry her for time on earth. It was a rare occasion that this happened, and did strain the practice as it became known. But again, JS did not sleep with women that he married just for eternity.
I know for a fact that one of Joseph Smith's wives received revelation from God that she was to be sealed to him as a wife.This discussion evolved out of discussion from another thread about lds doctrine. I feel it was becoming too off topic so I would like to continue it here. The focus is Mormon Polygamy, Polyamory and the example of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Discussion begins about page 4 on the original thread.
LDS - Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Wh
Yet we are told by Mormons that Joseph Smith didn’t sleep with his many wives. Did he then, if I am to take part 2 of your argument seriously? Joseph then would have been justified in breaking the secular law? This is even more shocking when we see that the official public position of the LDS Church was that Polygmy was not practiced, it was even forbidden in the D&C before Brigham Young amended it. It would then seem to be the case that Joseph and the Church institution is guilty of then lying about the actual actions of the Church.
So we’re told. Remember Joseph Smith also lied to the Public. Why should the LDS be trusted on this matter? Maybe you personally don't but whose to say one of your Prophets couldn't be receiving secret revelation and doing exactly what Joseph Smtih said? That would be perfectly acceptable right?
I doubt Jesus wanted or need Joseph Smith to marry 40 or so women and especially women already married in the Mormon way and the secular way. I also doubt Jesus needed these same women being eternally sealed to Brigham Young when Joseph died. Whose wives will these women be in the next life?
We quite obviously believe our marriages are temporary based on Jesus’ words that we will live like angels in the next life. Mormons believe as we do that Angels don’t have sex or are married and thus we won’t be in any such state. This isn’t to suggest the spiritual or unique bond is broken at the moment of death completely. It is even stranger for Mormons to remarry or be sealed to someone else after their first spouse's death because it's not just a temporal arrangement but an eternal arrangement. You need to explain how this works. How do wives in multiple spiritual marriages get distributed?
I do find your argument fascinating that since Joseph was only spiritually married to women already married that it was perfectly acceptable. Mind you Joseph's spiritual cuckoldry would have affected the Mormon husbands of the many women he married in doing this if your rationale is correct. That Joseph Smith married these women to not be with them necessarily on earth but he did it to be united to them for all eternity doesn't seem like a justification at all. These were Mormon men whom we have no reason to doubt were sealed to their wives in proper Mormon fashion either.
Joseph would then have denied the following men their wives: Henry B. Jacobs. Heber C. Kimbal. Windsor Lyon.
Honest question to any Mormon man. How would you feel if you were put in any such position of a man wanting to marry your wife (with whom she will be with forever and can also be with physically temporally)?
Do you think for one minute that God did not approve of a prophet of God having more than 1 wife?The key God did not approve of them. It was men acting in the flesh.
Do you have evidence of such an agreement taking place or is this just a Mormon explanation? It would be comparable to a Mormon Prophet telling you today that your wife must be eternally married to him because it’s God’s will. Would you willingly accept that? I find it hard that any man completely and accepted such a decree that serves no purpose except to undermine the very purpose of eternal marriage. It also suggests that eternal marriages can happen in the next life despite us being told by Mormons they can only be performed here with the correct procedure and temple rights.
Here’s the strange problem you introduce with your solution. It was all okay because these men were going to receive wives in heaven anyway. Their eternal marriage on earth was unimportant when compared to the eternal marriage between Joseph and their wives. Joseph as a Prophet takes precedence and therefore receives the wives. It still seems (and I know you think this crude) to be a form of spiritual cuckoldry. What Joseph Smith does is undermine the Mormon institution of marriage and the bond between two people by inserting himself and his privilege.
The question I have, is why? Why does Joseph need forty wives in eternity? Jesus didn’t and doesn’t have any yet Joseph needs forty? What did it accomplish here in this world and what did it accomplish in the next? As we can see it has only laid Joseph open to the charge of being a philanderer.
Except he did or is certainly reported to have slept with many of his plural wives and it is not beyond reason to suspect as much, especially if what Mormons say about their marriage ceremonies means anything. Fanny Alger and Melissa Lott comes to mind when we think of the sexual partners of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young provides you an example of a Prophet who fathered many children by many different women. Seems to me pretty clear Joseph did not only eternally marry women, but married them here in this world.
I have read much on the subject, and I know that many of the men whose wives were married to JS for eternity only were actually in the marriage ceremony and gave their approval. I am sure the Lord will make these men whole and happy.
It does seem counter productive to marry a woman who is married to a man in this life for eternity only. But I was not there and I cannot judge what the Lord was doing with JS in these arrangements. Except I know that the Lord will make all things right for the eternities to come.
There will be no exception that those married under the law of God by those with the power and authority to bind and loose couples in marriage will be married for eternity. Remember when the Lord comes the second time, that 1,000 years will be full of marrying couples for eternity who have not had that chance, until the time closes and there will be no more marrying or given in marriage.
These men we are talking about were never married for time and all eternity to their wives in the first place. And it was rare that JS did that, so very few times did he insert himself into a time only marriage. And he never committed adultery.
From our prospective, you are right it does look shaky. And it did lay JS open to the charge of being a philanderer. And to make your point, JS did not like the position it put him in, but the Lord pressed him and it is difficult to judge why. It is difficult for me to judge why.
But I only know this, that the works of the Lord are sometimes beyond our understanding and I will know perfectly when I see him again, and that he will make all things to be perfect for all men and women, and they will all be happy in their marriages and posterity throughout eternity.
We know that Fanny Alger married JS and did have sexual relations with her, but no children came from their efforts. So the idea that JS did not have wives that he married for time and all eternity is not true, he did, and he had sexual relations with them on earth.
We believe that this is not adultery, since he married them with the power and authority of God to bind and loose, and the number does not matter with the Lord.
We will not know how many wives the Lord will have? That is to be given in the future. We know not of this process that the Lord Jesus Christ will go through.
A marriage done by the authority and power of God must be done before the resurrection. There is a lot of time between now and the resurrection. These men that cooperated with JS will have the opportunity to be united in an eternal marriage with another woman after death and before they are resurrected.How can the Lord make these men happy? How does one gain a wife without a celestial marriage to her in this life? In which case this would imply that celestial marriage isn’t necessary here and now.
JS had the revelation around 1843, just a year before he died. So there was hardly a Mormon that had been married for eternity by the time JS died. It was BY that finished the Nauvoo temple and did hundreds of eternal marriages before they were driven out of Illinois in the middle of the winter.Can you provide a historical instance of the first marriage between a man and woman within Mormonism only being done in the earthly manner instead of the eternal manner? I sincerely doubt that was ever the case.
This doesn’t jive especially well with the words of Jesus whom says God has joined the couple together and no one can split them apart. Except God if he desires to give his prophet multiple partners for an undisclosed and suspisicous reasons. It absolutely undermines the very point of Mormon marriage which you claim is eternal, special and the ultimate experience we may have for perfection.
A union made with the power and authority of God was busted apart for no discernible reason or benefit, you could be up in arms about that. That did not happen. All marriages that involved JS were from Justices of the Peace without the power and authority of God to bind these people.This union can be broken apart on a whim by God for no discernible reason or benefit.
Why after 1,000 years? Because Jesus tells us that after the resurrection there will be no marrying or given in marriage. So all eternal marriages have to be complete by that time, per the Lord.So there will be a period for which anyone open to the possibility, can receive eternal marriage? Why after a thousand years will there be no possibility of marriage? What physically prevents God from blessing any such union or is that he will merely withhold his blessing? What also stops people in the next life who are not celestially married from acting as if they are married? They will have a body, they will abode in paradise.
Yes, your simple understanding is that JS was a sexual and spiritual deviant. We know thats what you think.I know there are things beyond understanding as well. But here there is a simpler explanation that Joseph Smith was sexually and spiritually deviant. To me is the better explanation than to suppose it was God’s mysterious and unknown will. Human nature is not too much of a mystery and we can easily explain why Joseph did what he did.
This is an area that I have come to a conclusion that JS made some mistakes in the law. He publicly preached against spiritual wifery. One man in particular was telling women, married and not married, that they were to marry him spiritually, have sex with him in this life and then be with him in eternity. This was not to be done, and JS preached against it. He was not involved in that kind of marriage. The man was excommunicated and then went out and told lies about what JS was doing, which is where anti-Mormon people get a lot of their news from, which is not true.Didn’t you suggest earlier that the LDS was in compliance with local law and custom on this question during the time period? Also, what do you make of the fact that Joseph Smith publically preached against Polygamy and yet was committing it behind closed doors?
I would agree it’s not adultery per Mormon understanding. What I think it does however is bring up more problems than it solves. If I were God and wanted to establish something on earth, how would I go about doing it? Revealing things gradually worked, such as Abraham to Moses to David to Jesus. But then would I go back on the things which are supposed to be a fulfilment or new revelation? One of your chief arguments for Mormonism that you still receive revelation and change accordingly as God demands. So God introduces Monogamy at the time of Jesus and Polygamy is more or less done away with. Societies which embraced Christianity became monogamous. The next step we are told was when God with Joseph Smith wanted to reveal Polygamy and eternal marriages.
God does do as he wishes and the end goal does not change, but the tactics to reach the end goal may vary depending on who God has to work with. Some people are obedient and listen and do what he says, and some are stiffnecked and hard to deal with. So depending on the human factor, God has to change his tactics sometimes to accomplish the end goal, which again never changes.It makes God look arbitrary, it makes it look like the product of human thinking on the ground than a grand plan of God to bring about the truth.
Who knows the true marriage arrangements of Jesus, for sure? As you say, it would be unthinkable that the apostles and the church fathers would not report such an event, but again they were forbidden to report many things that they knew. So to speculate that Jesus was or was not married is total speculation on our part. Besides, there is a lot of time before the end of the millennium that Jesus could be married.We know Christ was not married here on earth. It should be unthinkable that the family Jesus and his lineage would be forgotten or completely glossed over by not only the Church Fathers but also the New Testament. Problem for the Mormon is that Christ achieved perfection despite his celibacy.
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