The severity of suffering in hell

Godlovesmetwo · Jan 9, 2020

BugandAbby said:
The idea of an all torturous Hell is horrendous, but if one seeks Christ simply to avoid the road to perdition is that the right motive? Does that "count"?

i dont think so. its almost cowardly. we need to be motivated by a love which seeks no reward nor fears any punishment.
I think this can occur if we can build a mature relationship with JC.

t4inted- · Jan 9, 2020

JohnClay said:
Would hell for a typical unsaved person be unbearable? Or perhaps it is just the absence of God and not be particularly bad?

Well I believe so Jesus describes both your soul and body being destroyed in hell... and also a place of outer darkness where’s there’s weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.. where the worm dies not... so it can’t be that bad right?

Deus Vult! · Jan 9, 2020

Original Happy Camper said:
Your knowledge (IMHO) of the reward for the evil doers is of pagan origin

Intertwined with beliefs about death and spiritism are the doctrines of hell and purgatory. These doctrines are of pagan origin, and were adopted into the Christian culture by the Roman Catholic Church fathers in the 1400s.

The doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented forever is inconsistent with the character of God, who demonstrated infinite love for us in the sacrifice of His Son. Unfortunately, many people have misunderstood these concepts and reject God as a result.

Hell and Purgatory

You lie against the very words of the Son of God.
Jesus plainly stated that there is an unseen reality of hell, and that those who go there endure unspeakable horror and pain - and this for all eternity.
The testimony of all the Apostles, all the Church Fathers, and all the Saints, has always been in unanimous agreement that Hell is a real place, that really exists, and really is the place of eternal punishment, horror, suffering, and pain.
The matter is not up for your own wild interpretations.
As united as all the history of the Church was about the existence of Heaven, so to has it always been on the existence of Hell. I cannot believe on a Christian Forum this even needs to be stated to combat people denying it.

Original Happy Camper · Jan 9, 2020

Deus Vult! said:
You lie against the very words of the Son of God.
Jesus plainly stated that there is an unseen reality of hell, and that those who go there endure unspeakable horror and pain - and this for all eternity.
The testimony of all the Apostles, all the Church Fathers, and all the Saints, has always been in unanimous agreement that Hell is a real place, that really exists, and really is the place of eternal punishment, horror, suffering, and pain.
The matter is not up for your own wild interpretations.
As united as all the history of the Church was about the existence of Heaven, so to has it always been on the existence of Hell. I cannot believe on a Christian Forum this even needs to be stated to combat people denying it.

The first lie

Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

to counter the truth

Genesis 3:3
But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

and the majority of people believe the serpent instead of GOD

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

Original Happy Camper said:
The first lie....

About Eden and immortality:
Genesis 3:22-24
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

BigV · Jan 9, 2020

JohnClay said:
Hi my greatest fear is to be severely tortured for a long time - such as for a day or multiple days. Would hell for a typical unsaved person be unbearable? Or perhaps it is just the absence of God and not be particularly bad?

Let's think about it. If there is a Hell where God tortures people for all eternity, then that God must somehow not be bothered by that torture, right?

I mean, out of all punishments that God could think of, he thought of eternal and fiery Hell. So, what does it tell us about that God? Why would any time with such a God be enjoyable for any sane being?

BigV · Jan 9, 2020

Original Happy Camper said:
The first lie

Actually, the serpent said the truth. Everything the serpent said would happen ended up happening.

Genesis 3:3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.’” 4 The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5 For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Now, what happened after they ate of the tree?

First, they did not surely die!
Second, their eyes were opened, as the serpent said.
Third, they became like God, knowing good and evil, like the serpent said!

Genesis 3:22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.

According to the Bible, there was a risk that a man would live forever AFTER eating from the tree, from which God said they would DIE if they eat it's fruit. Think about it. In other words, why is there a fear that people might live forever after they eat of the tree of knowledge? Because the tree of LIFE gives life - thats why!

People died, according to the Bible, not because they ate of the tree of knowledge, but because God sent them out of Eden, preventing them from eating of the tree of life!

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

BigV said:
....I mean, out of all punishments that God could think of, he thought of eternal and fiery Hell. So, what does it tell us about that God? Why would any time with such a God be enjoyable for any sane being?

My sisters' pastor says God's glory is "so great and so awesome" when he considers eternal torment...

aiki · Jan 9, 2020

What does the punishment of hell tell us about God? Well, for one, that we don't see things as He does. Hell is God's punishment upon unrepentant sinners. It is God's response to human wickedness. That we think He goes too far in his punishment is a testament, not to His inordinate severity, but to our weak view of our own sin. Clearly, if God thinks eternal torment - not torture - in hell is the appropriate response to our sin, our sin is far, far worse than we are inclined to think it is. But we don't want to admit this. We are too comfortable with sin, too surrounded by it, and have even come to love some kinds of sin, defending them viciously when others condemn them. Is it any wonder, then, that we want to condemn God rather than ourselves when He indicates that our sin, the sin we often love, deserves the eternal torment of hell?

God is holy and just. He will not let our sin go unanswered. We see what true holy justice is in the wrath of God meted out upon the unrepentant wicked in eternal hell. This is not God playing the monster, but, rather, God revealing just how different we are from Him, how fallen, in regards to holiness and justice.

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

BTW if it is perfectly just for God to torment the unsaved for an eternity with a very harsh punishment I wonder why they've stopped things like whippings, etc?

aiki · Jan 9, 2020

Again, we see God's punishment as excessive because we don't see our sin for the enormous evil that it truly is. That is a fault on our end, not God's.

What's more, it makes a difference that God is not just another human with a lot of power. He stands above us as an utterly unique Being with prerogatives over His Creation that none of His creatures can possess. God is not, therefore, obliged to act just as we do. He's not one of us. He has a perspective, and power, and authority no human can comprehend. So, it is wrongheaded to think from ourselves to God as though He ought to follow our lead and conform to our thinking.

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

aiki said:
......if God thinks eternal torment - not torture - in hell is the appropriate response to our sin....

What matters is how severe it is. If the "torment" is as severe as "torture" then for me they're the same.

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

@aiki:
I was thinking, in the law given to Moses there were harsh punishments like stoning, then in John 8, Jesus says not to punish the adulteress... so perhaps Jesus is partly responsible for harsh punishments being stopped.
Though according to the NIV, John 7:53—8:11 wasn't in the original manuscripts.
Bible Gateway passage: John 7 - New International Version

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

aiki said:
.....Hell is God's punishment upon unrepentant sinners. It is God's response to human wickedness.....

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Angels are immortal so they would burn forever. It isn't clear about humans.

aiki · Jan 9, 2020

JohnClay said:
What matters is how severe it is. If the "torment" is as severe as "torture" then for me they're the same.

Severe from whose perspective? The criminal's or the judge's? What criminal doesn't wish for a lighter sentence? How many convicted criminals resent their punishment? Most, I expect. Does their wanting a lighter sentence and resenting the punishment they do receive make that punishment unjust?

In the case of the sinner in hell, God has not made it so that they had no choice but to suffer hell. God so loved the world, the Bible says, and through His Son, God made a way for all who would avoid hell to do so. In a sense, then, the door to hell is locked from the inside. Sinners put themselves in hell by their willful rejection of God and His way of salvation.

In any case, the torment of hell is deserved, it is perfectly proportional to the sin it punishes, however severe to us it may seem. God does not make the mistakes in justice to which fallible humans are prone.

aiki · Jan 9, 2020

JohnClay said:
I was thinking, in the law given to Moses there were harsh punishments like stoning, then in John 8, Jesus says not to punish the adulteress... so perhaps Jesus is partly responsible for harsh punishments being stopped.

He didn't actually forbid the stoning but challenged the lack of mercy in the woman's accusers.

Through Jesus, the punishment of hell has a perfect, once-for-all remedy, of which all may avail themselves. Jesus took the harsh punishment of our sin upon himself and in doing so made a way for us to escape it. But he didn't end divine justice and punishment. It awaits all who will not come under the atoning work of Christ.

aiki · Jan 9, 2020

JohnClay said:
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Angels are immortal so they would burn forever. It isn't clear about humans.

Well, the Bible speaks of "everlasting punishment" in reference to the fate of the unrepentant wicked in Matthew 25:46. "Everlasting" is set in parallel to "eternal" in this verse, a common literary device in Jewish writing. The punishment of the wicked is just as never-ending as the life of the righteous. And it is punishment the "goats" face, not annihilation. Punishment necessarily entails consciousness. One cannot punish a rock or a broom. The verse, then, gives the reader good cause to understand that hell is consciously endured forever.

SkyWriting · Jan 9, 2020

JohnClay said:
I'm pretty sure that for me there is nothing worse than unbearable torture.

Tormenting yourself is much worse. You seem to have a solid start on that.
With torture, you can always find others to blame.

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

JohnClay said:
What matters is how severe it is. If the "torment" is as severe as "torture" then for me they're the same.

aiki said:
Severe from whose perspective? The criminal's or the judge's?

I said "for me". So I'd be the criminal.

JohnClay · Jan 9, 2020

SkyWriting said:
Tormenting yourself is much worse. You seem to have a solid start on that.
With torture, you can always find others to blame.

I'm not sure. If I was tormenting myself I would feel I deserved it. I don't think I deserve all of the problems I have which are health and mental problems. Lately I've been having severe cognitive problems.

The severity of suffering in hell

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