The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

cygnusx1 · Oct 5, 2007

make your calling and election sure and you will never fall ............. "but the elect can fall away" say some !!!

what a travesty of the God given means of assurance , declaring with the one hand if you make your election and calling sure you will never fall , but the ELECT CAN FALL ....... GREAT ADVICE MERLIN !!!

heymikey80 · Oct 5, 2007

I noticed you asked CygnusX1 what else would people fall away from if not salvation.

I guess I need to reiterate, there's lots of things to fall away from: the church itself, communion with Christ, walk with Christ, right doctrine, a good reputation.

Not everything is soteriology. Maybe I should add that to my signature?

jmacvols said:
Truth leads a person to do right. Adam followed a lie.

So Adam was already evil when he was made good?

jmacvols said:
So you are saying if he was "saved" it would be impossible for him to commit the sin of murder or any sin at all, he would be perfectly sinless?

Nope. I am saying that an entirely different course of events would emerge from someone who actually believed. God works in us. It's inside, out. Not outside, in. It's not evil works preventing our salvation. It's God's Spirit working in us for good works.

I said that in relying on Christ he wouldn't have lied to them, built up this horrific argument that he's actually saving them, and so he wouldn't have destroyed his family.

It's not perfection. It's not irrelevance. It's the Spirit of God working. It's redemption: not only in our future, but in our present. God ordains means as well as ends. This is easy to understand. It's the way things work.

Oye11 · Oct 5, 2007

This thread is a big , is why I have stayed off of it. Religious delusions very often are involved in such behaviors. They were with the wrestler Chris Benoit, as they were with the kid who shot up Virginia Tech, and the same of all shades is abundant among inmates of mental wards. This is just a pitiful attempted guilt by association, presumption, character assassination that is all too common from some "humble" Calvinists in the forum.

cygnusx1 · Oct 5, 2007

Paul is consistant ;

1Cor.3

[1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
[3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
[4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
[5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
[6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
[9] For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

again security of salvation not merited or caused or conditional by our works ; repentance and faith , love obedience , salvation is by free grace , and God's gifts and calling are without repentance!

we have moved away from the law and the essence of the law is conditionlism .

cygnusx1 · Oct 6, 2007

Oye11 said:
This thread is a big , is why I have stayed off of it. Religious delusions very often are involved in such behaviors. They were with the wrestler Chris Benoit, as they were with the kid who shot up Virginia Tech, and the same of all shades is abundant among inmates of mental wards. This is just a pitiful attempted guilt by association, presumption, character assassination that is all too common from some "humble" Calvinists in the forum.

interesting last line

the saying pot meet kettle jumps to mind , that is twice now this thread has caught out folks !

btw , it's nothing short of burying your head in the sand to ignore this Sunday school teacher's self confessed reasons for slaying his family , financial ruin and attempting to secure his families salvation , of course it doesn't mean all Arminians will act like this , thank God , what it does mean is this guy most probably wouldn't have slain his family to secure their salvation if he knew they were already secure !

"But, during a four-hour interview, he sought to explain how worries that financial hardship would split his family and turn them away from their faith forced him to make a tough decision. "I finally decided the only way to save them from that was to kill them," he said.

nobdysfool · Oct 6, 2007

Oye11 said:
This thread is a big , is why I have stayed off of it. Religious delusions very often are involved in such behaviors. They were with the wrestler Chris Benoit, as they were with the kid who shot up Virginia Tech, and the same of all shades is abundant among inmates of mental wards. This is just a pitiful attempted guilt by association, presumption, character assassination that is all too common from some "humble" Calvinists in the forum.

Sorry that you weren't sufficiently "entertained". Actually, this forum isn't for entertainment. If it puts you to sleep, why waste your time here? Or do you have some sort of morbid curiosity about those whom you consider beneath you?

Oye11 · Oct 6, 2007

nobdysfool said:
Sorry that you weren't sufficiently "entertained". Actually, this forum isn't for entertainment. If it puts you to sleep, why waste your time here? Or do you have some sort of morbid curiosity about those whom you consider beneath you?

Your inability to see and/or unwillingness to address the wholly ludcrious nature and ignorance of the OP and this thread tells me a lot. The most bizarre behaviors are no problem as long as they come from those in your theological camp....

Oye11 · Oct 6, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
interesting last line

the saying pot meet kettle jumps to mind , that is twice now this thread has caught out folks !

btw , it's nothing short of burying your head in the sand to ignore this Sunday school teacher's self confessed reasons for slaying his family , financial ruin and attempting to secure his families salvation , of course it doesn't mean all Arminians will act like this , thank God , what it does mean is this guy most probably wouldn't have slain his family to secure their salvation if he knew they were already secure !

"But, during a four-hour interview, he sought to explain how worries that financial hardship would split his family and turn them away from their faith forced him to make a tough decision. "I finally decided the only way to save them from that was to kill them," he said.

Ludicrous. Crazy people do crazy things and trying to make rational predictions about the twisted and deluded is an exercise in futility. You are no better than the atheist down in general apologetics that tried to blame the Va. Tech massacre on theists. This thread simply shows an inclination to stoop to any level slander those who question your OSAS.

nobdysfool · Oct 6, 2007

Oye11 said:
Your inability to see and/or unwillingness to address the wholly ludcrious nature and ignorance of the OP and this thread tells me a lot. The most bizarre behaviors are no problem as long as they come from those in your theological camp....

Perhaps you need to be reminded that I am not required (as you seem to think) to police everything that my Calvinist brethren post. In fact, I don't read everythuing everyone posts, because I haven't got the time, and some things just aren't that high on my priorities list. I participate when, how, and if I can.

For you to hold me responsible for what Cygnus or any other poster writes is a straw man, and a logical faux pas, and is further indication that you consider yourself "'above" others here, especially Calvinists.

I simply won't waste my time with know-it-alls, other than to do my best to pop their bubbles. Your inordinately high opinion of yourself is manifest for all to see.

Oye11 · Oct 6, 2007

nobdysfool said:
Perhaps you need to be reminded that I am not required (as you seem to think) to police everything that my Calvinist brethren post. In fact, I don't read everythuing everyone posts, because I haven't got the time, and some things just aren't that high on my priorities list. I participate when, how, and if I can.

For you to hold me responsible for what Cygnus or any other poster writes is a straw man, and a logical faux pas, and is further indication that you consider yourself "'above" others here, especially Calvinists.

I simply won't waste my time with know-it-alls, other than to do my best to pop their bubbles. Your inordinately high opinion of yourself is manifest for all to see.

I`ll wake up to your complaints when I see you once chastise someone of your own persuasian. And you are missing a wealth of opportunities...

nobdysfool · Oct 6, 2007

Oye11 said:
I`ll wake up to your complaints when I see you once chastise someone of your own persuasian. And you are missing a wealth of opportunities...

Thank you for making my point.

If you don't find the debate challenging enough, or stimulating enough, why are you still here?

Slumming?

Oye11 · Oct 6, 2007

nobdysfool said:
Thank you for making my point.

If you don't find the debate challenging enough, or stimulating enough, why are you still here?

Slumming?

Because I want to be at the moment... Don`t owe you any other explanation. Though you are soon to get a reprive, am flying to Central America for a week. If you feel my posts violate any rules, report them.

nobdysfool · Oct 6, 2007

Have a good, productive, and successful trip

jmacvols · Oct 6, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
the "if" of Peter is to do with our assurance , if we make our calling and election sure we will never fall

have you any idea why !

it's the most stupid advice to give to others that if they want never to fall they must make their calling and election sure , IF THE ELECT CAN FALL AWAY !!!!

Do you even notice the word "if" in this verse? It is a conditional word. IF one makes their calling an election sure he will not fall, but IF one does not make sure his election and calling he will fall. If the elect cannot fall away, why did Peter use the word conditional "IF"? Why didn't Peter say "it makes no difference if you're diligent about your election and calling for you can never lose your salvation"? Why be diligent if one cannot fall and lose his salvation? What is there to be diligent about?

cygnusx1 said:
, God already knows those that are His , He elected them , there is no if with God , and the gifts and calling of God are without repentance !

cygnusx1 said:
Gal 3: 6

God did not elect certain individuals, He elected a class of people called Christians, and each individual has to decide if he wants to be in this elected class or not. Those that decide to obey the gospel and become a Christian will become part of elect. Those that do not become Christian are not part of the elect.

cygnusx1 said:
New American Standard Bible

cygnusx1 said:
(©1995)
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
False Christians were brought in. They slipped in as spies to learn about the freedom Christ Jesus gives us. They hoped to find a way to control us.

King James Bible
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

God knows how to deal with his own , handing men over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh is always an option , and salvation clearly isn't at stake ... which must dissapoint you.

In Acts 2, it says the Lord added daily to His church. No one is added to His church without the Lord knowing about it. Jude is speaking of false teachers, possibly apostates, that came in and were teaching a false doctrine. Jude knew about them and was warning them. Do you think God did not know about them?

cygnusx1 said:
no it implies his body will be destroyed but in order that his spirit may be SAVED , again no loss of salvation even if the guy is killed !

cygnusx1 said:
God is good !

bad logic , shall we sin that grace should abound ? God forbid !

1 Cor 5:5 says that his spirit may be saved. This is in the subjunctive mood which does not show a guarantee. It shows that the action described possibly or potentially may or may not happen. He may be saved, he may not be saved. They were to use discipline and remove him from their fellowship which might cause him to repent. If he did not repent, he will not be saved. From 2 Cor 2:6-8, it appears he did repent. The punishment was inflicted of many, they withdrew their fellowship from him and thus he repented and they were to forgive him, verse 7.

jmacvols · Oct 6, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
make your calling and election sure and you will never fall ............. "but the elect can fall away" say some !!!

what a travesty of the God given means of assurance , declaring with the one hand if you make your election and calling sure you will never fall , but the ELECT CAN FALL ....... GREAT ADVICE MERLIN !!!

Again, do you understand what the word "if" means in this verse?

Peter said IF ye do these things, which implies one may not do these things and fall.

Why did Peter use the conditional word "IF" if salvation cannot be lost? It would make no sense for him to use it.

"IF ye do" is in the present tense, which means these things must be done on a on-going and continuous basis. If one stops doing these things he will fall, but as long as one continually does these things he will not fall. "Fall" is in the subjunctive mood, it may or may not happen.

Oye11 · Oct 6, 2007

nobdysfool said:
Have a good, productive, and successful trip

Thank you very much. Actually the aim is not for productivity or success but doing next to nothing and once again enjoying the laid back culture. They have something very special there.

Oye11 · Oct 6, 2007

Cyg is at least clever. He got the subject off the silly insinuations of the OP over to a OSAS debate. Good idea....

nobdysfool · Oct 6, 2007

Oye11 said:
Thank you very much. Actually the aim is not for productivity or success but doing next to nothing and once again enjoying the laid back culture. They have something very special there.

Relaxation, true relaxation, is in itself a successful endeavor. Enjoy your time there. I enjoyed my trip to the Caribbean earlier this year, as well.

jmacvols · Oct 6, 2007

heymikey80 said:
I noticed you asked CygnusX1 what else would people fall away from if not salvation.

I guess I need to reiterate, there's lots of things to fall away from: the church itself, communion with Christ, walk with Christ, right doctrine, a good reputation.

Can one fall from these things and not lose their salvation? One canot fall from the church and still be saved. One cannot fall from the right doctrine to error and still be saved. Peter was plainly talking about falling from salvation (election and calling).

heymikey said:
Not everything is soteriology.

heymikey said:
Maybe I should add that to my signature?

So Adam was already evil when he was made good?

What God made was good, but later Adam choose to believe a lie.

Ever notice the similarity between OSAS and what Satan said to Eve in the garden? God told them they would surely die (spiritually) in the day that ate of the fruit. Satan said ye shall not surely die. The bible shows that Christians can lose their salvation and die spiritually, yet OSAS says ye shall not surely die.

heymikey said:
Nope. I am saying that an entirely different course of events would emerge from someone who actually believed. God works in us. It's inside, out. Not outside, in. It's not evil works preventing our salvation. It's God's Spirit working in us for good works.

God works only in those who do His will, ie, obey Him.
1 Jn 3:12 Cain's works were evil and because of such he was not righteous before God. So salvation depends if one's works are evil or righteousness. [Abel's works were righteous.]

heymikey said:
I said that in relying on Christ he wouldn't have lied to them, built up this horrific argument that he's actually saving them, and so he wouldn't have destroyed his family.

It's not perfection. It's not irrelevance. It's the Spirit of God working. It's redemption: not only in our future, but in our present. God ordains means as well as ends. This is easy to understand. It's the way things work.

He could not save his family only Christ can save, all this man did was kill them. If his family were in a saved position when he killed them then they will be saved, yet murdering them was still a sin.

jmacvols · Oct 6, 2007

cygnusx1 said:
Paul is consistant ;

1Cor.3

[1] And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
[2] I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
[3] For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
[4] For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?
[5] Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
[6] I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
[7] So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
[8] Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
[9] For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
[10] According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
[11] For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
[12] Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
[13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
[15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

again security of salvation not merited or caused or conditional by our works ; repentance and faith , love obedience , salvation is by free grace , and God's gifts and calling are without repentance!

we have moved away from the law and the essence of the law is conditionlism .

You have completely taken this passage out of context.
Here Paul is making something of a metaphor between a building and the church. Paul laid the foundation and others came behind Paul and built the walls and a building is only as strong as the materials put into it. The church is the same. Paul worked to lay the foundation by making the first converts in Corinth. Others built the walls by working to make more converts. And the church is only as strong as the converts made. If they have a strong faith the church will be strong, if they have a weak faith the church will be weak.
So when it says everyman's work will be tried by fire, the word work here refers to the Corinthian converts. In 1 Cor 9:1 Paul asks "are ye not my work in the Lord?". So those Corinthians converts were his work. On judgment day fire will try everyman's work (convert). If that convert is saved, then Paul will receive a reward. But if that work (convert) is burned or lost, then Paul will suffer a sense of loss, for his work with that convert was in vain. Paul himself, as long as he remains faithful, will not be lost even though his convert is lost. Gal 4:11 Paul was afraid his work with the Galatians was in vain. If they are lost on judgment day Paul will suffer a sense of loss for his vain work, but Paul himself will be saved as long as he remains faithful.
This passage actually refutes OSAS by showing converts can be lost.

The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

Jacob the twister.....

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Jacob the twister.....

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