The Righteousness of Job

HopeSings · May 8, 2024

Paul teaches about Job and his friends here in this scripture. In my opinion. You can see the blind and self righteous hypocrisy surrounding the apostles in their own church. Just like Job and his friends. In my opinion

James 5:10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

1 Corinthians 4:
8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us—and indeed I could wish you did reign, that we also might reign with you! 9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men.

10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we [f]entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.

Paul’s Paternal Care
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me. 17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.

Yarddog · May 8, 2024

HopeSings said:
No and neither did Job's unwise friends.

I think that you need to reread Job. Elihu was the youngest of those present but wiser than the three other men. They stopped replying to Job because Job was righteous in his own eyes. Job 32:1

In chapter 33:13, Elihu chastises Job for striving against God. The after Elihu spoke God followed and chastised Job. After this Job repents.

Dale · May 8, 2024

bling said:
The Story of Job seems to make God out to be unconcerned with human’s fate, playing games with humans, easily manipulated, harsh, cruel and satan is on an equal plan with God.

Here are some questions to get you thinking:

1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?

2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?

3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had this problem?

4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?

9. We always need to remember “death” is not bad in and of itself (atheist consider a harsh death to be the worst thing possible) it is the way good people get to be with God and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

Look at this at least:

Job, “He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.” (But that does not mean Job would not have wanted to be better and was not asking God for His help.

This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.

First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans. This needs lots of understanding.

God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).

In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.

God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.

From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.

Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?

Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.

We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path of growth, so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.

Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.

I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out, we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?

This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.

We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.

It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility, they will not do.

At the end we see a changed Job:

1 Then Job replied to the LORD:

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?

Here seems to be the problem: Job said: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.

Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this, would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this, would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, “I know the Lord” (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced? If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better then anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.

Bling, thanks for joining in here. You quote Job 42:6:

“Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

… and follow that up with
<< The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin? >>

It is possible to repent, or have a spirit of repentance, even when you aren’t repenting of any particular deed. In the more liturgical churches, I have heard: “Forgive us, for those things that we have done knowing they were wrong, and those things that we have done in ignorance.”

It is possible to realize that you aren’t perfect even when you aren’t sure exactly when or where you fell short.

When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send
and have them purified. Early in the morning he would
sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps
my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This
was Job’s regular custom.
Job 1: 5 NIV

Here Job tries to make amends for possible errors of his children, even though he doesn’t know the particulars.

Dale · May 8, 2024

bling said:
The Story of Job seems to make God out to be unconcerned with human’s fate, playing games with humans, easily manipulated, harsh, cruel and satan is on an equal plan with God.

Here are some questions to get you thinking:

1. Was Job spiritually more mature at the end of Job’s story than at the beginning?

2. What problem did Job finally show that he needed correction?

3. Would Job have easily acknowledged this problem prior to the disaster, because he would have realized he had this problem?

4. Would God have known of Job’s problem prior to satan’s visit?

5. Did satan manipulate God to get at Job or did God manipulate satan to get satan to do stuff God could not do (hurt innocent people) and bring Job to the point of accepting God’s understanding of his problem?

6. Does this give us an example of the degree to which God will go in order to help us to grow spiritually?

7. Is this an example of the role satan plays indirectly helping good people become even better?

8. It is “unfortunate” that some of Jobs children went to be with God in heaven and leave Job and his wife, but how big of a price will God pay to help us (send his only son)?

9. We always need to remember “death” is not bad in and of itself (atheist consider a harsh death to be the worst thing possible) it is the way good people get to be with God and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

Look at this at least:

Job, “He was the greatest man among all the people of the East.” (But that does not mean Job would not have wanted to be better and was not asking God for His help.

This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.

First!! Remember our objective: All humans are to develop and grow in Godly type love (agape) of God and other humans. This needs lots of understanding.

God’s objective is the most selfless, in that He has and will do everything to help human individually develop and grow Godly type love (help us fulfill our objective).

In the story of Job, we can see God is in charge, satan can only do what God allows Satan to do.

God has power over Satan and could destroy Satan at any time, so Satan has a purpose that forces God to allow Satan to stick around.

From the story we see Satan doing the bad stuff to good people and God allowing Satan to do this bad stuff.

Bad stuff is never bad for the individual that loves God: Rm8: 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him. What good can Job get out of this discipline, trial, learning experience?

Job would have been praying for himself like he prayed for his kids: Early in the morning he would sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, "Perhaps my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." This was Job's regular custom. Job’s pray would easily been to ask to love more and grow spiritually.

We can not stop, we have to be growing or we will start withering spiritually. Where Job is in his spiritual growth at the beginning seem to be far down the path of growth, so further growing could be a challenge and require a new level.

Job is fantastic at the beginning of the story, but he is not perfect, he can still do a lot of growing.

I think we can agree that Job is personally a better person (spiritually stronger) at the end of the story then at the beginning, so what was Job’s weakness in the beginning that God would know and realize? If we could figure this out, we could figure what was needed to help Job. Would a burning bush experience help Job?

This is another situation in which God works with an individual personally. God is working with each of us very similarly.

We do not know how God worked individually with each of Job’s kids, but He was and they joined God in heaven and would be there when Job got there.

It has been my experience people (including myself) really hate to humble ourselves. It is like being baptized, people use every excuse for not being baptized that comes down to being a sign of humility, they will not do.

At the end we see a changed Job:

1 Then Job replied to the LORD:

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'

5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.

6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin?

Here seems to be the problem: Job said: Job 31: 35 (“Oh, that I had someone to hear me! I sign now my defense—let the Almighty answer me; let my accuser put his indictment in writing. 36 Surely I would wear it on my shoulder, I would put it on like a crown. 37 I would give him an account of my every step; I would present it to him as to a ruler.)—

From this and previous verses Job has lower God to his level like he could argue his case before God and win. Job would not have admitted that deep in his heart early on he saw God as being like some superior human being and not above making any mistakes, so it would take a huge upheaval in Job’s life to get him to realize this weakness in himself.

Job was humbled in the end, but why go through all this, would there not be an easier way? If God had spoken directly to Job prior to all this, would Job not have listened? I would say, “NO”. Job would have said, “I know the Lord” (when he really didn’t) Job would not have said what he did say in the end and that is what he needed to say. How do you get Job to say what he did without going through what he experienced? If you had asked Job in the beginning, “do you know the Lord”, he would have said, “yes” for he knew the Lord better then anyone else at the time. God does not want you to just be the best, but the best you can be and that is what Job wanted.

Just some thoughts, I really love Job and thank God for this story.

Bling: “This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.”

I don’t think so. The Book of Job looks like a story composed to make a point. If Job is an actual person, he had to live within recorded history. Here is why. Take a look at Job’s friends.

When Job’s three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the
Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the
troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their
homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathise
with him and comfort him.
Job 2:11 NIV

Later, Elihu the Buzite is introduced as Job’s fourth friend.

But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram,
became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than
God.
Job 32:2 NIV

The first of Job’s friends is Eliphaz the Temanite. What is a Temanite?

These are the names of Esau’s sons: Eliphaz, the son of
Esau’s wife Adah, and Reuel, the son of Esau’s wife
Basemath.
The sons of Eliphaz: Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam and
Kenaz.
Genesis 36:10-11 NIV

Teman is a place in Edom. Eliphaz is a name used in Edom. A Temanite can also be a descendant of Teman, a grandson of Esau.

The next of Job’s friends is Bildad the Shuhite. What is a Shuhite?

These were the descendants of Dan by their clans: through
Shuham, the Shuhamite clan. These were the clans of Dan:
All of them were Shuhamite clans; and those numbered were
64,400.
Numbers 26:42-43 NIV

Job’s third friend is Zophar the Namaanthite. What is a Namaanthite?

Ge. 46:21 The sons of Benjamin: Bela, Beker, Ashbel, Gera, Naaman,
Ehi, Rosh, Muppim, Huppim and Ard.
Genesis 46:21 NIV

A Naamanthite is someone descended from Naaman, a son of Benjamin.

Lastly, there is Elihu the Buzite. What is a Buzite?

Edom, Moab and Ammon;
all the kings of Tyre and Sidon; the kings of the coastlands
across the sea;
Dedan, Tema, Buz and all who are in distant places;
all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the foreign people
who live in the desert;
Jeremiah 25:21-24 NIV

A Buzite is someone from the region of Buz, or whose family is from there.

All four of Job’s friends are from places known to exist in historic times, or members of clans or tribes known to exist in historic times.

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
I think that you need to reread Job. Elihu was the youngest of those present but wiser than the three other men. They stopped replying to Job because Job was righteous in his own eyes. Job 32:1

In chapter 33:13, Elihu chastises Job for striving against God. The after Elihu spoke God followed and chastised Job. After this Job repents.

Didn't God rebuke jobs friends?

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
I think that you need to reread Job. Elihu was the youngest of those present but wiser than the three other men. They stopped replying to Job because Job was righteous in his own eyes. Job 32:1

In chapter 33:13, Elihu chastises Job for striving against God. The after Elihu spoke God followed and chastised Job. After this Job repents.

Read 1 Corinthians 4. The apostles were afflicted and looked down on like Job was. They thirsted for redemption.

bling · May 9, 2024

Dale said:
Bling: “This is the oldest story thought to be recorded, it could be before the time of the flood.”

I don’t think so. The Book of Job looks like a story composed to make a point. If Job is an actual person, he had to live within recorded history. Here is why. Take a look at Job’s friends.

When Job’s three friends, Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the
Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite, heard about all the
troubles that had come upon him, they set out from their
homes and met together by agreement to go and sympathise
with him and comfort him.
Job 2:11 NIV

Later, Elihu the Buzite is introduced as Job’s fourth friend.

But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram,
became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than
God.
Job 32:2 NIV

The first of Job’s friends is Eliphaz the Temanite. What is a Temanite?

These are the names of Esau’s sons: Eliphaz, the son of
Esau’s wife Adah, and Reuel, the son of Esau’s wife
Basemath.
The sons of Eliphaz: Teman, Omar, Zepho, Gatam and
Kenaz.
Genesis 36:10-11 NIV

Teman is a place in Edom. Eliphaz is a name used in Edom. A Temanite can also be a descendant of Teman, a grandson of Esau.

The next of Job’s friends is Bildad the Shuhite. What is a Shuhite?

These were the descendants of Dan by their clans: through
Shuham, the Shuhamite clan. These were the clans of Dan:
All of them were Shuhamite clans; and those numbered were
64,400.
Numbers 26:42-43 NIV

Job’s third friend is Zophar the Namaanthite. What is a Namaanthite?

Ge. 46:21 The sons of Benjamin: Bela, Beker, Ashbel, Gera, Naaman,
Ehi, Rosh, Muppim, Huppim and Ard.
Genesis 46:21 NIV

A Naamanthite is someone descended from Naaman, a son of Benjamin.

Lastly, there is Elihu the Buzite. What is a Buzite?

Edom, Moab and Ammon;
all the kings of Tyre and Sidon; the kings of the coastlands
across the sea;
Dedan, Tema, Buz and all who are in distant places;
all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the foreign people
who live in the desert;
Jeremiah 25:21-24 NIV

A Buzite is someone from the region of Buz, or whose family is from there.

All four of Job’s friends are from places known to exist in historic times, or members of clans or tribes known to exist in historic times.

Does it really matter if it was before or after the flood?
Was it before Abraham?

bling · May 9, 2024

Dale said:
Bling, thanks for joining in here. You quote Job 42:6:

“Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

… and follow that up with
<< The fact Job talks of “repenting”, means he realized he sinned, so what was Job’s sin? >>

It is possible to repent, or have a spirit of repentance, even when you aren’t repenting of any particular deed. In the more liturgical churches, I have heard: “Forgive us, for those things that we have done knowing they were wrong, and those things that we have done in ignorance.”

It is possible to realize that you aren’t perfect even when you aren’t sure exactly when or where you fell short.

When a period of feasting had run its course, Job would send
and have them purified. Early in the morning he would
sacrifice a burnt offering for each of them, thinking, “Perhaps
my children have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.” This
was Job’s regular custom.
Job 1: 5 NIV

Here Job tries to make amends for possible errors of his children, even though he doesn’t know the particulars.

You definitely can ask and be forgiven of things you did in ignorance, but if what you did is not wrong you do not need to repent from doing it and you do not know what you did was wrong.
It is a good question, so how do you repent (change your ways) of stuff you don't know is wrong?

Yarddog · May 9, 2024

HopeSings said:
Didn't God rebuke jobs friends?

He rebuked three but not Elihu.

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
He rebuked three but not Elihu.

I see sinners go without punishment everyday. Job was trsted and sinners judge him.

Yarddog · May 9, 2024

HopeSings said:
I see sinners go without punishment everyday. Job was trsted and sinners judge him.

Job repeated claimed that he was perfect and righteous but no one is prefect or has a righteousness of their own. The only righteousness that matters is that which is granted by God through faith. It is not for man to obey through their own efforts but only by being led by God's Holy Spirit.

Job finally repented of his sin and embraces faith.

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
Job repeated claimed that he was perfect and righteous but no one is prefect or has a righteousness of their own. The only righteousness that matters is that which is granted by God through faith. It is not for man to obey through their own efforts but only by being led by God's Holy Spirit.

Job finally repented of his sin and embraces faith.

Job is better than us.

Yarddog · May 9, 2024

HopeSings said:
Job is better than us.

Job was just like many self- righteous Christians. He looked at his position with pride. After this truth was revealed to him, by God, he repented of his sin and humbled himself before God.

Being better than us matters not without actual faith in the works of God, instead of our own.

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
Job was just like many self- righteous Christians. He looked at his position with pride. After this truth was revealed to him, by God, he repented of his sin and humbled himself before God.

Being better than us matters not without actual faith in the works of God, instead of our own.

We are jobs unwise friends. Weep with those who weep. Stop judging

Yarddog · May 9, 2024

HopeSings said:
We are jobs unwise friends. Weep with those who weep. Stop judging

Stop judging Job's friends.

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
Stop judging Job's friends.

Tell it to God. He judges them.

Yarddog · May 9, 2024

HopeSings said:
Tell it to God. He judges them.

And tell it to God for those that you claim that I'm judging. God judges man, not me

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
And tell it to God for those that you claim that I'm judging. God judges man, not me

I'm just saying that many people identify with Job's suffering. Let's not be Job's unhelpful friends

Yarddog · May 9, 2024

HopeSings said:
I'm just saying that many people identify with Job's suffering. Let's not be Job's unhelpful friends

I also identify with Jobs but I also identify with his repentance. People need to understand the truth about true faith. No one can be truly righteous by trying to do the right things. That leads to death.

What God wants is for us to humble ourselves and embrace that gift that God gives his children through baptism in the Holy Spirit. Surrender to that Spirit and it will change people. It teaches us to love the way God intends his children to love.

The more we love through the Spirit the less we follow sin.

HopeSings · May 9, 2024

Yarddog said:
I also identify with Jobs but I also identify with his repentance. People need to understand the truth about true faith. No one can be truly righteous by trying to do the right things. That leads to death.

What God wants is for us to humble ourselves and embrace that gift that God gives his children through baptism in the Holy Spirit. Surrender to that Spirit and it will change people. It teaches us to love the way God intends his children to love.

The more we love through the Spirit the less we follow sin.

Sounds right.

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