The Real Deal

StormyOne · Nov 3, 2005

http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/HealthIssues/1103162109.html

StormyOne · Nov 3, 2005

Q: Just wondering, are brain cells really killed when alcohol is consumed?

A: No, usually brain cells are not killed. For 16 years, Roberta J. Pentney, professor of anatomy and cell biology at the University at Buffalo, has studied chronic alcohol abuse and brain function. She concludes that alcohol does not kill brain cells but rather damages dendrites--the branched ends of nerve cells that bring messages into the cell.

Alcohol surely affects the brain, as we all know, causing slurred speech, clumsiness, slow reflexes, and a loss of inhibition. But alcohol doesn't destroy the brain cells to cause these problems.

Rather, alcohol dilates the channels in the cellular structure that regulates the flow of calcium. More calcium than normal flows into the cells and stimulates increased activity. Somehow this abnormal "turning on" of activity causes a loss of the end segments but not does not kill the whole cell. Losing the end segments, however, means losing incoming messages, which disrupts brain function.

The good news is: the damage to the brain cells, for the most part, isn't permanent. The brain repairs itself but the recovery process does change nerve-cell structure. So most function returns to normal but some does not.

Another researcher, working independently finds similar results: Alcohol doesn't kill brain cells; instead it slows communications. Richard Gross professor of medicine, chemistry, and molecular biology & pharmacology at Washington University in St. Louis, discovers alcohol combines with the brain's fatty acids and forms compounds called fatty-acid-ethyl esters. These compounds, in turn, change the flow of electric and chemical signals in the brain. A change in this flow alters how the brain works.

http://www.wonderquest.com/BrainCells.htm

StormyOne · Nov 3, 2005

Killing Brain Cells
If alcohol kills brain cells, and weaker cells die first, then when you drink are you not making yourself smarter by killing your weaker brain cells?

Let me first clarify that this assumption is a myth. Alcohol does not actually kill brain cells. Instead, alcohol affects the communication within the brain. Researchers arent exactly sure how this happens, but here are two different thoughts on the subject. Roberta J. Pentney, University at Buffalo, believes that alcohol damages dendrites, which are the branched ends of nerve cells that deliver messages to the cell. This damage distorts incoming messages to the brain, causing slurred speech, slow reflexes, clumsiness and loss of inhibition. Another researcher, Richard Gross at Washington University in St. Louis claims that alcohol combines with the brains fatty acids and forms compounds. These compounds change the flow of chemical and electrical signals in the brain disrupting communication between neurons. The good news is that, for the most part, the brain is able to repair itself in the short-term. But, long-term alcohol abuse can cause permanent damage to the nerve-cell structure.

http://www.uistudenthealth.com/question/default.asp?asgid=31&agid=9&id=779

Seraph1m · Nov 3, 2005

Roustalski said:
My fiance drinks. She likes to have a beer every now and then with dinner or something, and we've had a major discussion about it - which ended up in an argument.

One of the key points that she uses in justifying (other than growing up with it), is that Jesus drank wine and that makes drinking in moderation OK or appropriate. So after reading all of that, I'll have some new information for her, and that's why I'm interested in this thread and those links.

Roustalski, try to bear in mind that only the Holy Spirit is able to open your fiance's understanding so that she can see what the Lord desires for her. Show her that you care by being a good example to her and respecting her. She is an adult do not opt to treat her like your child.

Keep her in your prayers rather then lecturing her each time you get more info on any subject the two of you do not agree on. God does not try to guilt trip us into doing His will, nor does He try scare tactics to get us to do His will. Show her that you love and respects her right to make her own choices. It is so important that we respect the choices that other adults make even when we do not agree with those choices personally. That is also an example that Jesus lived.

Peace

BondGirl · Nov 3, 2005

TrustAndObey said:
So I'm curious...can we, as Christians, have a little bit of cocaine or heroine as long as we don't get rip roaring stoned?

I ask this of the same person (CHRISTian/SDA) that gets a Novocaine shot when getting their wisdom tooth pulled. I ask this of the same person (CHRISTian/SDA) that is having surgery and is given a "sedative" to make them unconscious. I ask this of the same person (CHRISTian/SDA) that has cancer and receives Morphine.

Count it all or count it none.....

JMO

tall73 · Nov 3, 2005

Roustalski said:
My fiance drinks. She likes to have a beer every now and then with dinner or something, and we've had a major discussion about it - which ended up in an argument.

One of the key points that she uses in justifying (other than growing up with it), is that Jesus drank wine and that makes drinking in moderation OK or appropriate. So after reading all of that, I'll have some new information for her, and that's why I'm interested in this thread and those links.

I can agree with the proposition that alcohol is certainly not a good thing. And I can agree that Jesus even made non-alcoholic juice. But what I can't say is that the argument that the verse in Deuteronomy is referring to non-alcoholic drinks is at all consistent with the other biblical usage. Nor can I say that the Bible definitively banned alcohol. It would have been quite easy, for instance, during the monarchy, to totally outlaw alcohol. But we don't see this. We see total bans on

unlawful sexual relations
Sabbath breaking
sorcery
stealing

etc. But we never see any statement forbidding alcoholic beverages.

Now I already posted numerous texts which do paint a gloomy picture of them. So it is quite reasonable to

a. Abstain
b. push for abstinence on a national level.

However, it is not reasonable to say emphatically that the Bible prohibits alcohol. I just don't see the evidence.

To Palehorse:

I understand that you are basing the argument on something other than biblical usage, but isn't that the chief issue? Lexical forms, and debates over their usage might be interesting, but Moses clearly uses the term with consistency, as do the other Bible authors.

Also the Bible makes provision for yeast in offerings from the harvest, though grain, not drink offerings are particularly mentioned. So the yeast issue isn't really there either.

I guess I don't see why you would go against the usage of all the biblical instances just to show that it could be something else.

HoneyDew · Nov 6, 2005

Remember this:
"There is a land of corn and wine and all it's joy will soon be mine?" Why did they take ti out of the hymnal?

PaleHorse · Nov 6, 2005

BondGirl said:
I ask this of the same person (CHRISTian/SDA) that gets a Novocaine shot when getting their wisdom tooth pulled. I ask this of the same person (CHRISTian/SDA) that is having surgery and is given a "sedative" to make them unconscious. I ask this of the same person (CHRISTian/SDA) that has cancer and receives Morphine.

Count it all or count it none.....

JMO

Now this is great - comparing casual drinking to medical treatment. (Which BTW I made allotment for at the very beginning of this thread.) I guess that means I should just start learning to roll my own marijuana joints - I mean if we are going to compare valid medical treaments to casual drinking why not? Based on this presumption you have just made almost every drug known to man a perfectly fine comsumption. Not only that but you have completely undermined every biblical verse that endorses sobriety:

Romans 12:3 - For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
1 Thessalonians 5:6 - Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1 Thessalonians 5:8 - But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1 Timothy 2:9 - In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1 Timothy 2:15 - Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Timothy 3:11 - Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
Titus 1:8 - But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Titus 2:2 - That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
Titus 2:4 - That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
Titus 2:6 - Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
Titus 2:12 - Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
1 Peter 1:13 - Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
1 Peter 4:7 - But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

So rather than making the blanket statement, BondGirl, "count it all or count it none" wouldn't it be more wise to understand that there a huge difference between medical treatment and casual use? That there is a time and place for EVERYTHING under the sun? Else, what is to keep me from smoking a doobie every day? Or do you endorse that too?

Also, in reference to your comment about cancer patience needing morphine - ask places like Eden Valley who treat cancer patients all the time, if they use any types of drugs in the successful treatment and CURING of cancer. It is only those that opt for NON-natural means of treatment that must resort to using morphine and other pain-blocking drugs.

PaleHorse · Nov 6, 2005

HoneyDew said:
Remember this:
"There is a land of corn and wine and all it's joy will soon be mine?" Why did they take ti out of the hymnal?

Since when are hymnals our guides to truth?

PaleHorse · Nov 6, 2005

tall73 said:
To Palehorse:

I understand that you are basing the argument on something other than biblical usage, but isn't that the chief issue? Lexical forms, and debates over their usage might be interesting, but Moses clearly uses the term with consistency, as do the other Bible authors.

Also the Bible makes provision for yeast in offerings from the harvest, though grain, not drink offerings are particularly mentioned. So the yeast issue isn't really there either.

I guess I don't see why you would go against the usage of all the biblical instances just to show that it could be something else.

I'm not going against "all the biblical instances" for I have admitted that there are many times that "wine" or "strong drink" does in fact mean alcoholic beverages. But in nearly every one of those instances we read something bad happening as a result of consuming the alcohol.
Also, and this is evident for nearly all biblical truths, God seems to have inspired the writers of the Bible to NOT be emphatically clear on every subject - this is evident, if it were not then there wouldn't be all the disagreements between different denominations regarding the truths. We know that God has one truth but I believe He allowed enough "wiggle room" in the scriptures to allow those that are looking for loop-holes to find them. We all find what we are looking for; we either want to follow God's truth and seek it out or He allows us to duck the issues if that is what the reader is wanting to do anyway. It all comes down to one's underlying motive.

HoneyDew · Nov 6, 2005

PaleHorse said:
Since when are hymnals our guides to truth?

I don't think I infered that they were ...

I asked why they took it out because I wondered if somehow there was confusion about the word "wine" and whether some were uncomfortable with the usage. If it has something to do with copyright, then that would be another issue. The question was not asked with malice.

PaleHorse · Nov 6, 2005

HoneyDew said:
I don't think I infered that they were ...

I asked why they took it out because I wondered if somehow there was confusion about the word "wine" and whether some were uncomfortable with the usage. If it has something to do with copyright, then that would be another issue. The question was not asked with malice.

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the point you were making. My bad.

HoneyDew · Nov 6, 2005

Not a prob. I should have been more specific with my question in the first place. Was just being lazy.

BondGirl · Nov 6, 2005

Per your "medicinal" statement - the marijuana is fine. Marijuana has been proven to reverse/assist with Glaucoma. Marijuana has also been shown to ease the pain of MS and Parkinson's patients.

I say "count it all or count it none" - because many of you have used the premise that it is "casual" when someone has a drink of WINE for their "stomach sake". Now - again - when JESUS was on the cross; he didn't even accept vinegar. So if you are going to say no WINE period - even for the "stomach sake" as the scripture translates to (not juice - no matter what you say...) then the same people should not take any form of any pain medication or drug assistance. That is what I mean when I say "all or none".

It sounds like some are saying, "Oh....GOD understands my Pain. He wouldn't mind if I had this Morphine drip since I have cancer. He won't care if I get this shot of Novocain - after all it is a root canal and a wisdom tooth extraction.

...but it is wrong for me (per many of you) to even have a sip of wine when I have an upset stomach? Headache?

Flip-flop the issues if you want....but it stands like this....

It is not okay to drink wine. Even if it is for my "stomach sake".
It is okay to have a shot of Morphine if I am in pain.
It is not okay to have a Marijuana joint for my eyesight.
It is okay to have Novocain when getting a tooth extracted.
It is not okay to have a "shot" e'ry now and then.
It is fine to take an asprin, daily - "for my heart".....

I get it.

PaleHorse said:
Now this is great - comparing casual drinking to medical treatment. (Which BTW I made allotment for at the very beginning of this thread.) I guess that means I should just start learning to roll my own marijuana joints - I mean if we are going to compare valid medical treaments to casual drinking why not? Based on this presumption you have just made almost every drug known to man a perfectly fine comsumption. Not only that but you have completely undermined every biblical verse that endorses sobriety:

So rather than making the blanket statement, BondGirl, "count it all or count it none" wouldn't it be more wise to understand that there a huge difference between medical treatment and casual use? That there is a time and place for EVERYTHING under the sun? Else, what is to keep me from smoking a doobie every day? Or do you endorse that too?

tall73 · Nov 6, 2005

PaleHorse said:
I'm not going against "all the biblical instances" for I have admitted that there are many times that "wine" or "strong drink" does in fact mean alcoholic beverages. But in nearly every one of those instances we read something bad happening as a result of consuming the alcohol.
Also, and this is evident for nearly all biblical truths, God seems to have inspired the writers of the Bible to NOT be emphatically clear on every subject - this is evident, if it were not then there wouldn't be all the disagreements between different denominations regarding the truths. We know that God has one truth but I believe He allowed enough "wiggle room" in the scriptures to allow those that are looking for loop-holes to find them. We all find what we are looking for; we either want to follow God's truth and seek it out or He allows us to duck the issues if that is what the reader is wanting to do anyway. It all comes down to one's underlying motive.

If I were looking for wiggle room I wouldn't be advocating national temperance. I just signed my name on a petition yesterday to encourage the city council to uphold ordinances that would ban smoking in our town too. I would be more than willing to do the same with drinking if they were considering it, but unfortunately they are not.

I am not arguing for the right to use alcohol. I am arguing that you should not try to change biblical words when their usage is overwhelming.

When we make these kind of arguments it undermines our valid points elsewhere. Yes, it is a valid point to say that there are many texts that show drinking leads to problems. But if a text is not saying that, then don't make it say that.

When I said you are going against the biblical usage, I am not saying you are going against the fact that the Bible has a dim view of alcohol. I am saying that this word that you cite is used overwhelmingly in the Bible for alcoholic drink. You are going against usage in your interpretation of the word.

If anything you are looking for some loophole that lets this passage quoted by Stormy be anything but alcoholic drink. Why?

It doesn't change the overall Scripture advice about alcohol.

But then, the overall Scripture advice is not a clear prohibition either.

I am not in this to be able to drink. I have no desire whatsoever to drink. But I am in this because it, just like other issues, is a call to biblical fidelity. And I think traditionals need to go just as far as the Bible says, and no further, just as I urge the progressives to on other issues.

The way to keep people from finding wiggle room is not to make bigger statements than what the Bible did. Then they just lose respect for us when that is discovered, and say we were pushing our own agenda, rather than the Bible statements.

HoneyDew · Nov 6, 2005

*double post*

HoneyDew · Nov 6, 2005

tall73 said:
It doesn't change the overall Scripture advice about alcohol.

But then, the overall Scripture advice is not a clear prohibition either.

I am not in this to be able to drink. I have no desire whatsoever to drink. But I am in this because it, just like other issues, is a call to biblical fidelity. And I think traditionals need to go just as far as the Bible says, and no further, just as I urge the progressives to on other issues.

I will take this oppurtunity to reiterate that I am not calling that we inbibe, but simply that we be honest in our application of the scripture we hold dear. I agree with Tall's finding regarding the use and abuse of wine in Bible times.

tall73 · Nov 6, 2005

BondGirl said:
Per your "medicinal" statement - the marijuana is fine. Marijuana has been proven to reverse/assist with Glaucoma. Marijuana has also been shown to ease the pain of MS and Parkinson's patients.

I say "count it all or count it none" - because many of you have used the premise that it is "casual" when someone has a drink of WINE for their "stomach sake". Now - again - when JESUS was on the cross; he didn't even accept vinegar. So if you are going to say no WINE period - even for the "stomach sake" as the scripture translates to (not juice - no matter what you say...) then the same people should not take any form of any pain medication or drug assistance. That is what I mean when I say "all or none".

It sounds like some are saying, "Oh....GOD understands my Pain. He wouldn't mind if I had this Morphine drip since I have cancer. He won't care if I get this shot of Novocain - after all it is a root canal and a wisdom tooth extraction.

...but it is wrong for me (per many of you) to even have a sip of wine when I have an upset stomach? Headache?

Flip-flop the issues if you want....but it stands like this....

It is not okay to drink wine. Even if it is for my "stomach sake".
It is okay to have a shot of Morphine if I am in pain.
It is not okay to have a Marijuana joint for my eyesight.
It is okay to have Novocain when getting a tooth extracted.
It is not okay to have a "shot" e'ry now and then.
It is fine to take an asprin, daily - "for my heart".....

I get it.

PaleHorse said:

Now this is great - comparing casual drinking to medical treatment. (Which BTW I made allotment for at the very beginning of this thread.) I guess that means I should just start learning to roll my own marijuana joints - I mean if we are going to compare valid medical treaments to casual drinking why not? Based on this presumption you have just made almost every drug known to man a perfectly fine comsumption. Not only that but you have completely undermined every biblical verse that endorses sobriety:

So rather than making the blanket statement, BondGirl, "count it all or count it none" wouldn't it be more wise to understand that there a huge difference between medical treatment and casual use? That there is a time and place for EVERYTHING under the sun? Else, what is to keep me from smoking a doobie every day? Or do you endorse that too?

Click to expand...

He is not being inconsistent if he simply says

a. take medicine when you need it.
b. We have medicine to replace alcohol in treating stomach ailments when necessary.

If there are treatments for the stomach that help the problem without clouding the mind as much, then yes, it makes perfect sense to use them.

Now I have met Adventists who take no medicine. If that is their choice, it is their choice. And I can see where they might prefer pain to clouded thinking.

Certainly Jesus, as Savior of the world, had a lot riding on those moments on the cross. His lot was to face the guilt of all our sin, and the separation it brought. And He did it without shrinking back or avoiding the pain. Becuase He was taking that pain on our behalf as our substitute.

I am not sure the same realities are there when someone takes a pain medication for something serious.

I had a member who was kicked by a horse and was suffering greatly. He never uses medicine, even in life threatening infections, etc. with his kids. Because he felt there were natural remedies that would suffice--and they did.

But the doctor said if the pain kept up he was likely to die. So we convinced him to take something.

Right? I don't know. Of course, the only thing that convinced him was Ellen White's comments about a man who's died because he did not take malaria medicine when available, and she said he could have taken it.

We are looking for the ideal in a sinful world. And while medicine should not be a cure for long term ailments where life change would be better, it might be necessary in life saving situations.

And if all I had handy, was liquor at the time, I would have given it. But since we had other options, we used them.

Paul was simply working with the options he had. And it was no endorsement of drinking at other times.

So I agree, it is not casual to use it in that instance. But some do stretch it to mean we can use it for relaxation etc. And some even use it to condone casual drinking.

PaleHorse · Nov 6, 2005

tall73 said:
I am not arguing for the right to use alcohol. I am arguing that you should not try to change biblical words when their usage is overwhelming.

I know you aren't looking for wiggle room - I wasn't aiming that towards you. I know your stance on this subject and we are in accord.

PaleHorse · Nov 6, 2005

tall73 said:
He is not being inconsistent if he simply says

a. take medicine when you need it.
b. We have medicine to replace alcohol in treating stomach ailments when necessary.

If there are treatments for the stomach that help the problem without clouding the mind as much, then yes, it makes perfect sense to use them.

Now I have met Adventists who take no medicine. If that is their choice, it is their choice. And I can see where they might prefer pain to clouded thinking.

Certainly Jesus, as Savior of the world, had a lot riding on those moments on the cross. His lot was to face the guilt of all our sin, and the separation it brought. And He did it without shrinking back or avoiding the pain. Becuase He was taking that pain on our behalf as our substitute.

I am not sure the same realities are there when someone takes a pain medication for something serious.

I had a member who was kicked by a horse and was suffering greatly. He never uses medicine, even in life threatening infections, etc. with his kids. Because he felt there were natural remedies that would suffice--and they did.

But the doctor said if the pain kept up he was likely to die. So we convinced him to take something.

Right? I don't know. Of course, the only thing that convinced him was Ellen White's comments about a man who's died because he did not take malaria medicine when available, and she said he could have taken it.

We are looking for the ideal in a sinful world. And while medicine should not be a cure for long term ailments where life change would be better, it might be necessary in life saving situations.

And if all I had handy, was liquor at the time, I would have given it. But since we had other options, we used them.

Paul was simply working with the options he had. And it was no endorsement of drinking at other times.

So I agree, it is not casual to use it in that instance. But some do stretch it to mean we can use it for relaxation etc. And some even use it to condone casual drinking.

Amen! My point exactly.
BondGirl, if you are suffering from chronic stomach pain and the wine hasn't cured you by now, don't you think it best to search for the root cause? Could it be a certain food you eat, or a combonation that isn't agreeing with you? Is it stress or anger? Look for the long term cure. My issue is the use of the wine as a crutch when the cure could be right around the corner.

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